Homo Sapiens and their guns

[Opal]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I don't make /everyone/ pay for /all/ thier equipment even in Champs. Normal equipment is OK if you have the wealth for it, or are issued it, and it's 'normal' for you to have such equipment most of the time. Thus, for instance, since my game is set in CA, if you're not a cop, you prettymuch have to pay points for a gun, if you want that gun generally available for shooting people (just try getting concealed carry in CA). Soldiers are issued thier weapons (and, IIRC, ammo to go with it only when required), so I certainly wouldn't make them pay for them.

 

That's just me though, I like the concept of wealth, and consider something just anyone can have easily (like a cellphone, these days) to be mere baseline.

 

 

As far as stats go, I think they're easy to overestimate. A 10 is actually pretty darn good. A 10 STR, 10 CON, 2 SPD normal with 6 running can run until the GM realizes he should use LTE (2 END/turn, 4 REC). You'd have to buy down REC or have a STR & CON below 8 to 'get winded easily' while running. STR 10 lifts 220 lbs. DEX 11 and a single skill level lets you punch or block an untrained person about 90% of the time. In Hero, it really doesn't take much to be good, thanks to the bell-curve of the dice rolling convention.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

23 points is very basic at best IMO and I will agree that you can earn a black belt with only knowing 3 maneuvers quite well. (once again see Karate Kid for details)

 

23 points is not "very basic" IMO, but I take a different approach here.

 

See, there's a world of difference between knowing a martial arts move and being able to reliably, 100% of the time, pull off the technique in a life or death situation.

 

The former is represented by character background and an appropriate KS in a given martial art.

 

The latter involves spending points on actual maneuvers, CSL's, damage classes and/or powers.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I'm very much a hypocrite on this.

I think supervillains should require superheroes to stop them.

Yet, on the other hand, I think the surest fire way to get your butt stomped in a comic book setting, or at least have your schemes turn to ashes around you, is to say "He's just a man".

 

So if the Normal is a PC? He can be the one who saves the world.

If the normal is an NPC? Not so much, unless the story is one of those where a brave normal man stands up and loses his life, but turns the tide (ala what happened to "Terrible Turpin" in Superman:tAS)

 

Pretty much my take on it. A 'mere mortal' with a standard issue firearm (not a blaster or some kind of souped-up (supered-up) firearm facing off against a supervillain is about as useful as bacon at a Bar Mitzvah.

 

By definition, to me, PCs are not Normals. To quote the Joker, regarding Batman, 'there ain't nothin' mere about that mortal'.

[Alibear]

Indeed, Bloodstone. (rep if I can)

[Moonblade]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I think everybody's missing the important part of this post... "and their GUNS."

 

A normal walking up to a metahuman and poking him would most likely get splattered. But a 25+25 soldier with 2 pts. in WF manning a quad 50. machine gun and unloading on even a 350 pt. super should give that super pause. And that doesn't include LAWS rockets and other man-portable over-powered weapons I can't think of 'cause I don't have 5th ED rev in front of me.

 

I used a "Challenges for Champions" scenario where the terrorists had assault rifles, Elephant guns and hostages. Especially with the STUN lottery on Killing attacks, they knocked out two of my people before they were subdued.

[Legatus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I think everybody's missing the important part of this post... "and their GUNS."

 

A normal walking up to a metahuman and poking him would most likely get splattered. But a 25+25 soldier with 2 pts. in WF manning a quad 50. machine gun and unloading on even a 350 pt. super should give that super pause. And that doesn't include LAWS rockets and other man-portable over-powered weapons I can't think of 'cause I don't have 5th ED rev in front of me.

 

I used a "Challenges for Champions" scenario where the terrorists had assault rifles, Elephant guns and hostages. Especially with the STUN lottery on Killing attacks, they knocked out two of my people before they were subdued.

 

You're right! Let's get back on track.

[Alibear]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

No-one is debating whether a normal bloke shooting a gun is a threat. We all know that anyone with a gun is dangerous to us.

 

The question is, "Is a normal bloke with a gun a threat to Angry GodMan who can toss tanks around with ease?"

 

Not in the world I play and GM in. A world where one character runs round the entire planet as a surprise maneuver. A world where Martial Artists dodging generate dcv's in the low 20's. A world where tough guys shrug off strikes from LAW rockets and strong guys lift aircraft carriers. In that world any super could kill a normal person with one strike before the normal person could react. That is not the kind of places where normal people combat supers.

 

No a cop and a .45 would not make a Super (in my campaign) look twice. Especially true if he had a few xps under his belt.

[Opal]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

The question isn't are they a threat, but /should they be/.

 

Massive killing-dice conventional weapons may be 'realistic' and apropriate for high-lethality genres like Dark Champions, but I think they're undesireable for traditional supers along the lines of the Silver Age, 4-color, or, for that matter, saturday-morning cartoon tropes. In some genres, mercilessly random death just isn't called for, and consistent bullet-bouncing is.

[nexus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Lets not forget these big guns still have to hit. Big Damage and the Stun Lotto (which can crap out too) doesn't mean "I win." There's DCV and relative Speed to consider as well.

 

On a different note, the worst thing I've seen stem from this sort of thing is the Gm starting to take it as some kind of "challenge" to overwhelm his PC with "normals" to keep them in afraid, put them in their place or just for plain ego. It turns into a perverse arms race where the GM holds all the cards. The "normals" get cutting edge weaponry (often far exceeding the DC/Active points allowed for the PCs) for free, the combat values needed to hit and hit regularly, nearly automatic coordination. ("They've got 8- and have trained together so I won't bother to roll"), effortless intelligence (often bordering on clairvoyance) and the advantageous tactical positioning.

 

Let me make it clear I'm NOT saying anyone in this thread would get to that level or even close it's just one of the worst out comes.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Basic Marine

 

Player: NPC

 

Val Char Cost

13 STR 3

13 DEX 9

13 CON 6

12 BODY 4

12 INT 2

11 EGO 2

13 PRE 3

10 COM 0

 

5/12 PD 2

5/12 ED 2

3 SPD 7

6 REC 0

26 END 0

26 STUN 0

 

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

2 1/2" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 40

 

Cost Power

9 Standard Issue Spectra Level II Combat Vest & Helmet: Armor (7 PD/7 ED) (21 Active Points); Half Mass (-1/2), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Real Armor (-1/4) [Notes: Taken from HERO system Equipment Guide]

20 Colt M16 A4: (Total: 52 Active Cost, 20 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, 30 Round Clip Charges (+0), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (37 Active Points); OAF Durable Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), STR Minimum 13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 10) plus +2 with Ranged Combat (10 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) (Real Cost: 7) plus +1 with Range Modifier (5 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) (Real Cost: 3)

25 Combat Vest Weapons: Multipower, 25-point reserve

1u 1) M 9 Barretta Standard Issue: (Total: 25 Active Cost, 11 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6+1 (20 Active Points); OAF Durable Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), 15 Charges (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8) plus +1 with Ranged Combat (5 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) (Real Cost: 3)

1u 2) The OKC-3S Combat Knife : (Total: 10 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6-1 (1d6 w/STR) (10 Active Points); OAF Durable (-1), STR Minimum 6 (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

Powers Cost: 56

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver

Marine Corps Martial Arts Program [Commando Training page 23 Ultimate MA] [Notes: Book says it's specifically for Marines ] also the MCMAP is a real world Martial Art taught to Marines. Maneuvers included are.

3 1) Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 2 1/2d6 +v/5, Target Falls

4 2) Punch: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 4 1/2d6 Strike

4 3) Choke: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab One Limb; 2d6 NND

4 4) Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 28 STR vs. Grabs

4 5) Hold: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Three Limbs, 10 STR for holding on

4 6) Disarm: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, Disarm; 23 STR to Disarm roll

4 7) Throat attack: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, HKA 1d6 +1

4 8) Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

1 9) Weapon Element: Clubs

1 10) Weapon Element: Knives

Martial Arts Cost: 33

 

Cost Skill

Military Skills Trained

5 1) Accurate Sprayfire

5 2) Concentrated Sprayfire

5 3) Rapid Attack (Ranged)

2 4) Navigation (Land) 11-

3 5) Stealth 12-

3 6) Climbing 12-

3 7) Combat Driving 12-

18 8) +3 with HTH and Ranged Combat

3 9) Concealment 11-

3 10) KS: Military Customs and Courtesy 11-

3 11) KS: Military History 11-

3 12) KS: Military organizations 11-

3 13) KS: Operational Planning 11-

3 14) KS: Small Unit Instruction 11-

3 15) KS: Small Unit Tactics 11-

3 16) Teamwork 12-

10 17) WF: Common Melee Weapons, Emplaced Weapons, Small Arms, General Purpose/Heavy Machine Guns, Grenade Launchers, Shoulder-Fired Weapons, Vehicle Weapons

3 18) Systems Operation 11-

4 19) Survival (Temperate/Subtropical, Desert) 11-

3 20) TF: Parachuting, Basic, SCUBA, Tracked Military Vehicles, Wheeled Military Vehicles

1 21) Weaponsmith (Firearms) 8-

Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

3 1) Breakfall 12-

Modern Everyman

0 1) AK: Home country or region 8-

0 2) Acting 8-

0 3) Conversation 8-

0 4) Deduction 8-

0 5) Native Language (idiomatic; Literate, literate) (5 Active Points)

0 6) PS: Choice (Everyman Skill) 11-

0 7) Paramedics 8-

0 8) Persuasion 8-

0 9) Shadowing 8-

0 10) TF: Small Motorized Ground Vehicles (Custom Adder)

Skills Cost: 92

 

Cost Perk

5 Fringe Benefit: Improved Equipment Availability Military equipment

3 Fringe Benefit: Membership USMC "Semper Fidelis"

Perks Cost: 8

 

 

Total Character Cost: 229

 

Pts. Disadvantage

15 Psychological Limitation: Bound By Duty (Common, Strong)

10 Psychological Limitation: Overconfidance, "Must improvise adapt , overcome" (Common, Moderate)

20 Social Limitation: Subject to Orders (Very Frequently, Major)

15 Military Oversight: 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

5 Reputation Marine: , 8-

10 Custom Disadvantage [Notes: This is a catch all for the individual Infantryman]

Disadvantage Points: 75

Base Points: 75

Experience Required: 79

Total Experience Available: 79

Experience Unspent: 0

 

 

There a real world Marine using Standard Issued Equipment and Training. If you spend the points you can bring him up to Super HERO level easy enough. Give him Heavy Weapons and he is a threat to almost any Super.

 

23 points is not "very basic" IMO, but I take a different approach here.

 

It is very basic. Not to get to much into my full background but yes you can teach those skills if you work with someone 8-10 hours a day for two weeks. In most Martial arts Dojo's you could pass as a Black Belt with only 80-100 dedicated hours of Martial training. This does not include body conditioning such as running, push ups, etc.

[Opal]

Lets not forget these big guns still have to hit. Big Damage and the Stun Lotto (which can crap out too) doesn't mean "I win." There's DCV and relative Speed to consider as well.

I almost went into that, yeah. Some anti-vehicle weapons should have little chance of hitting or even targeting (some require 'lock on' before they'll fire at all), a human-sized target. Yeah, the TOW missle or whatever does absurd amounts of damage, but if you're not at least as big as - and no more manueverable than - a tank, you'll only ever be taking the peripheral explosion effects.

 

But, Hero does do the 'bullet dodging' superhero pretty well. An 8 CV advantage over the attacker means he needs that natural 3, and that happens what, less than half a percent of the time. A '5' STNx, OTOH, gets you one time in 6. You litterally can't bounce machine gun bullets off your chest because you're virtually gauranteed one or more will hit the STN lotto. At least, not without a total PD that would break any reasonable campaign guideline. So forget the classic Superman, let alone the one in the last movie who bounced a bullet of his /eye/.

 

That's why I like gimping KAs by aplying the STNx only to the BOD that gets through. It doesn't change costs, doesn't have to chang how guns are statted out, but it makes bullet-bouncing easy (though never a sure thing vs supers' KAs that might have AP or penetrating or find weakness), and leaves guns devestating to normals.

 

 

GloryFox:

 

I aplaud the obvious deep respect you have for our soldiers, and I'm aware that the military has taken on more of a quality over quantity philosphy. Gone are the days of barely-trained conscripts, that's true. Still, I'd suspect those characteristics (particularly the SPD) model at least a veteran, rather than being minimums for anyone coming out of training. And, as is currently modish, you go way overboard on skills. A standard martial arts package - 10 or 12 points, plus the KS and a weapon element or two - is probably more than adequate, you don't have to have every manuever in an art to have 'mastered' it. Similarly, while I'm sure each of the skills you list is reasonable for some marine to have, I doubt that many would really have /all/ of them - and most would have quite a few as familiarities if they did have them.

 

You also have to think about what you're trying to model in the game. If a group of agents or soldiers are there as cannon fodder, it doesn't matter if they have survival. If it comes up, you could go, "oh yeah, I guess he should have survival," but the combat stats and equipment are all that really matters. If they're an honor gaurd for the president when he's about to be assassinated, all that really matters is thier ability to intercept a snipers bullet in mid-air - which none of them can do, but Ctp Americlone can...

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

So forget the classic Superman, let alone the one in the last movie who bounced a bullet of his /eye/.

 

What about missile deflection with invisible power effects? That might simulate the "eye" phenomenon.

[Opal]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

It's an active defense. It can work fine for a brick who only wants it for grandstanding, though. Rather like the Houdini trick of tensing to recieve a blow. If you're not 'ready for it,' it can hurt.

[Yansuf]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Wow, basic training must have gotten much tougher than when I was in.

Yes, the training methods have gotten much better, but for the US Army you do not get any significant training with many of the things mentioned in basic. If you are including AIT (Advanced Individual Training) in Infantry, that is another matter, but that doubles (or a little more, I have checked recently) the length of time in training.

 

BTW, I question the build of 18 points for +3 HtH and +3 Ranged; I thought that would cost 30 points.

 

To get back to the original question, it depends on the level of the campaign.

If the heroes are "world class" like the JLA, I wouldn't expect a "normal" with small arms would be a significant threat, unless the normal was very highly skilled, and thus, arguably, not normal. In a campaign with 200 point plus disadvantages heroes, this may not be as true, but still should usually be for a handguns and the like. (Of course, some heroes defense against guns is "you cann't hit me!" which may not work if they are completely surprised.)

 

But unless the heroes/villains are "Galactic Champions" level, I don't think very many could survive an open battle with the military, unless the military is heavily constrained against using heavy weapons by worries about collateral damage. The "you cann't hit me" boys will have trouble resisting area attacks, like explosions or electric powered gatlings, the "bullet bouncers" will have trouble with anti-tank weapons. They may be able to out maneuver a TOW, but a APDSDU round from a 120 mm gun travels at about one mile per second. And tank fire control systems are very good today; they can hit "point" targets.

[Opal]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

BTW' date=' I question the build of 18 points for +3 HtH and +3 Ranged; I thought that would cost 30 points.[/quote']If they're OCV levels or if they're with a group - martial arts for HTH, or firearms for ranged, it'd come out to 18.

 

Actually, I have a quibble, too: if you're paying over 50 pts for your equipment, why do you need a perk for improved equipment availability? The perk would seem to cover that, something like wealth. You get the gear you're issued. You're not wedded to it like a super who buys a focus that he always seems to get back eventually.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

posted by Opal

A standard martial arts package - 10 or 12 points, plus the KS and a weapon element or two - is probably more than adequate, you don't have to have every manuever in an art to have 'mastered' it. Similarly, while I'm sure each of the skills you list is reasonable for some marine to have, I doubt that many would really have /all/ of them - and most would have quite a few as familiarities if they did have them.

 

Opal have you studied Martial Arts?

 

I have for over 28 years in Shotokan Karate. What the Marines train in is very basic yet very effective maneuvers. They don't have to learn all of the odd fancy maneuvers or kata's like U-Blocks, double punches, or Flying Kicks just the stuff that works in the field and that is just as effective as any other maneuver that takes years to learn but not quite as fancy. That said I will agree just because you can kick like Chuck Norris does not make you Chuck Norris. What the MCMAC teaches are basic maneuvers that you can apply to any situation then they get very good at it.

 

On the Basic Marine build, I thought I was being modest on SPD and stats. Most former Marines might look back and find this as very modest.

 

posted by Yansuf

Yes, the training methods have gotten much better, but for the US Army you do not get any significant training with many of the things mentioned in basic

 

I'm sure if you think about it you can reasonably accommodate every single one of those skills. Even with Army Basic Training and Advanced Training. Especially with all 6 listed KS skills.

10) KS: Military Customs and Courtesy 11- (did you ever learn to salute , or did you ever learn to recognize rank, how about going up the chain of command? Did you learn about procedure?)

11) KS: Military History 11- (Did you learn about the tradition of the Army, famous people and what tactics they were famous for?)

12) KS: Military organizations 11-(Who is Delta Force and what do they really do?, What about the 82nd Airborne? Screaming Eagles?, 7th Army? Who is in command of those units?)

13) KS: Operational Planning 11- (If you were an officer then this skill is a must in training, otherwise it's very easy to learn once you understand the basics, some of this is taught in basic training during combat simulation)

14) KS: Small Unit Instruction 11- (Were you a squad leader?, corporal, sergeant, etc? Then you should know this skill too.)

15) KS: Small Unit Tactics 11- (As above were you a squad leader, can you follow extremely vague orders? and make sense of them? "Go take the hill!")

 

 

Funny I seem to remember these things from 18 years ago. I still pick up the government printed manuals from time to time just to keep up to date.

[Zed-F]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Spun off from Steamteck's thread. How dangerous to you feel "normal" people armed with conventional weapons should be? Normal being defined as lacking Powers of whatever Special Effect (technology' date=' Training, Mutation (deliberate or from birth), Alien Origin Magic or anything else)[/quote']

 

Depends on the power level of the game, and the tone, naturally.

 

In most of my games, however, enough guns in the hands of enough well-trained and tactically knowledgeable opponents, will ruin the day of most supers. Mooks with not much in the way of training, or even your average soldier, are not that much of a threat... though given a sufficiently large number of them to throw into the fray, they can still put a hurt on an unprepared super. Special forces and other elite troops are another level of threat entirely.

[Opal]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Opal have you studied Martial Arts?

Heck no. (OK, one Karate class when I was a kid, but I swear I learned nothing in it.)

 

I did read UMA quite a while ago, though, and I seem to remember 10 points in manuevers and an 8- in the skill being the 'black belt' equivalent. That gives you quite a substantial advantage over a non-martial artist - 3 manuevers or two really badass manuvers.

 

On the Basic Marine build, I thought I was being modest on SPD and stats. Most former Marines might look back and find this as very modest.

That's the way you want to go. Think about the clumsiest guy you knew as a marine when you think of DEX, and the one that complained the most about his pack when you're doing END, and so forth. With a 'basic' build, as with a package, you want to lay out the minimums you'd find - at most, the 'average' or 'typical' values.

 

 

Especially with all 6 listed KS skills.

Thing about knowledge skills is how fine you want to break them down is prettymuch up to you, in how you focus your campaign. All six of those could be 1 skill, or even folded into 1 PS, if the military wasn't particularly the focus of the game. Throwing a crisp salute, for instance, is more PS than KS.

 

Funny I seem to remember these things from 18 years ago. I still pick up the government printed manuals from time to time just to keep up to date.

'Use it or lose it' does aply. I'd have a heck of a time writing a COBOL program today, though I got pretty good at it in junior college. 'Modeling yourself' in game stats is always a tricky thing. You have some who complain they run out of points, others who wonder what all the points are for. Some of it, of course, is different life experiences (a game like hero makes combat skills more expensive and important than COBOL programing, for obvious reasons) but part of it is also how you concieve of what the game models, and what your self-image is like. Not agreeing on how to stat out Elrik of Melnibone is one thing, but arguing about how someone /like you/ should be statted out, that's personal.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Depends on the power level of the game, and the tone, naturally.

 

quote]

 

This is my answer, also. And should have (IMHO) been everyone's answer. Glory Fox, no offense, but I don't think I'd ever want to play in your Champions game. I get the feeling my character would be left sitting around going "Why am I needed, again?" And I got plenty of that in varous games in college. Mostly AD&D (you know, the campaigns where every tavern owner is a retired 20+ Level warrior, every town has a real Wizard, who is also high level, and every temple in every backwater village is headed up by a High Priest). The PCs (whatever the genre) are supposed to be larger-than-life heroes who can do things no "normal" person can do. If half the people in town, or the convetional armed forces, are just as capable (if not more so) as the PCs of doing these things, what is the point of the Player Characters? And when you find yourself asking that question; what, then, is the point of playing.

 

Sorry, rant mode off.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

A normal walking up to a metahuman and poking him would most likely get splattered. But a 25+25 soldier with 2 pts. in WF manning a quad 50. machine gun and unloading on even a 350 pt. super should give that super pause.

 

Why? That quad .50 can only do 18 BODY per hit, max. Is it really that uncommon to encounter 350 point supers with 20 rPD, or more?

 

10) KS: Military Customs and Courtesy 11- (did you ever learn to salute , or did you ever learn to recognize rank, how about going up the chain of command? Did you learn about procedure?)

 

Okay, I can answer this one. I went through Navy boot camp and there is NO way that we learned enough information to justifiy having an 11- roll on this. Just not happening.

 

11) KS: Military History 11- (Did you learn about the tradition of the Army, famous people and what tactics they were famous for?)

 

Again, no. Just, no.

 

12) KS: Military organizations 11-(Who is Delta Force and what do they really do?, What about the 82nd Airborne? Screaming Eagles?, 7th Army? Who is in command of those units?)

 

Maybe, if the Army goes into MUCH more detail than the Navy did.

 

If we're talking about someone who went through boot camp and not much else, I'd replace these skills with a single KS: The Army 8-.

 

14) KS: Small Unit Instruction 11- (Were you a squad leader?, corporal, sergeant, etc? Then you should know this skill too.)

 

Heck no. I was a Petty Officer First Class (E6) and all I ever got was a week-long class on basic (VERY basic) leadership techniques. I'd hesitate to even rank it as an 8- familiarity, based on the class alone.

 

Part of the reason for stat and skill inflation, in my mind, is that people forget about BONUSES to skill rolls. Knowing who to salute and when would be at least +5 to the roll, for being such basic information. Actually, I wouldn't even require a roll for this.

 

A character performing a Routine task, with Good Equipment, taking a little Extra Time to get it right is going to be enjoying AT LEAST a +5 bonus to his/her skill roll, and maybe as much as +10.

[Opal]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Larger than life heros is definitely one very valid aproach to gaming, and one that Hero does quite well. (D&D really does it pretty well, too, when, y'know, you don't have 20th level bartenders.)

 

It is entirely possible to have game, though, where the heros - the PCs - are only exceptional in what they are willing to undertake, not what can do in terms of power. That usually works better in the sense of 'heros' being built at a low power level, than having the whole world built at a high power level, of course, but it is a perfectly valid sort of game. Horror games, for instance, are often of that type.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

posted by Opal

That's the way you want to go. Think about the clumsiest guy you knew as a marine when you think of DEX, and the one that complained the most about his pack when you're doing END, and so forth. With a 'basic' build, as with a package, you want to lay out the minimums you'd find - at most, the 'average' or 'typical' values.

 

That was called Motivation Platoon, had to avoid the 9th level of hell called motivation platoon.

 

Psychological Limitation total cost 15 points

Common Stong

Fear of Motivation Platoon, I don't want to even think about it.

 

Glory Fox, no offense, but I don't think I'd ever want to play in your Champions game. I get the feeling my character would be left sitting around going "Why am I needed, again?"

 

Oh I doubt that.

 

Extra ordinary circumstances require extra ordinary people. Cops can't deal with a teleporting brick, a Mentalist Cult leader, a shape shifting alien meta morph sleeping around with the Secretary of Defenses wife, etc. My games are not necessarily about firepower as much as defeating the bad guys, cult leader, alien invasion etc. Powers are almost always secondary, yet your ability to amaze the ordinary never goes out of style. A Gun can only do so much vs. the scaly tenticaled fleshoid creature kidnapping young Asian college girls, etc. Who better to stop a gang of mutant Jihad fanatics then supers?

 

BUT hey if all you want to do is beat people or monsters up then my games are not for you. They require thought and skill over mindless ammo and brawn.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

That was called Motivation Platoon, had to avoid the 9th level of hell called motivation platoon.

 

Psychological Limitation total cost 15 points

Common Stong

Fear of Motivation Platoon, I don't want to even think about it.

 

 

 

Oh I doubt that.

 

Extra ordinary circumstances require extra ordinary people. Cops can't deal with a teleporting brick, a Mentalist Cult leader, a shape shifting alien meta morph sleeping around with the Secretary of Defenses wife, etc. My games are not necessarily about firepower as much as defeating the bad guys, cult leader, alien invasion etc. Powers are almost always secondary, yet your ability to amaze the ordinary never goes out of style. A Gun can only do so much vs. the scaly tenticaled fleshoid creature kidnapping young Asian college girls, etc. Who better to stop a gang of mutant Jihad fanatics then supers?

 

BUT hey if all you want to do is beat people or monsters up then my games are not for you. They require thought and skill over mindless ammo and brawn.

 

OK, I do enjoy those kind of games. It's just that, from what it seems reading your previous posts, the regular military (not even Special Forces), would not only have more ammo and more brawn than the PCs, but they would also have more skill and the ability for more thought. Maybe it's just a knee-jerk reaction from having played with a couple of GMs who thought their role in the game was to show the players that the PCs were nothing special. When the "extraordinary people" needed to deal with these "extraordinary circumstances" are less competent than the regular army, what does that say to the players?

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

OK, I do enjoy those kind of games. It's just that, from what it seems reading your previous posts, the regular military (not even Special Forces), would not only have more ammo and more brawn than the PCs, but they would also have more skill and the ability for more thought. Maybe it's just a knee-jerk reaction from having played with a couple of GMs who thought their role in the game was to show the players that the PCs were nothing special. When the "extraordinary people" needed to deal with these "extraordinary circumstances" are less competent than the regular army, what does that say to the players?

 

I fully understand where your coming from. In my games you the player are the HERO. That's not to say that gun's can't be used by normals. Heck one of my players plays a normal with a gun. His skills for investigations make the party work. He uses a gun, thats the extent of his special powers compared to the flame throwing energy projector, the mystic jack of all powers, the Robot, Patriot man, the De solid Martial Artist, and stretchy toy brick. He is by no means un able to deal with Supers just because he has a gun.

 

On a side note Military Law prohibits its use against the populace unless its a national security measure. Thats not to say that the Military can't make a request for your help, heck even provide you with fire power. HEROism comes from a persons ability to overcome. Yes you can have special forces but that does not mean the government wants to invest their special forces into slaying the specter of the PC's demise.

 

PC's are important, HERO's are important, thats why we read books, Comics, go to movies, watch TV shows. Players want to do cool things as in fiction and be entertained by a good story at the same time. Thats what my games are about.

 

I will defend the normal with a gun. I will defend the super with a gun. Guns are an equalizer, and should always be. However Guns are not an excuse for poor GMing skills.

[assault]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

If the heroes are "world class" like the JLA' date=' I wouldn't expect a "normal" with small arms would be a significant threat, unless the normal was very highly skilled, and thus, arguably, not normal. In a campaign with 200 point plus disadvantages heroes, this may not be as true, but still should usually be for a handguns and the like. (Of course, some heroes defense against guns is "you cann't hit me!" which may not work if they are completely surprised.)[/quote']

 

This distinction is meaningless, in my opinion. The JLA are people like Green Arrow, Black Canary, Elongated Man, Batman, Hawkman and the Atom, not just Superman.

 

"You can't hit me" is a major form of defence, at both power levels. In both case would I expect mooks with guns to be a major threat, although accidents can happen. Usually, of course, such "accidents" would involve the GM.

 

But unless the heroes/villains are "Galactic Champions" level, I don't think very many could survive an open battle with the military, unless the military is heavily constrained against using heavy weapons by worries about collateral damage. The "you cann't hit me" boys will have trouble resisting area attacks, like explosions or electric powered gatlings, the "bullet bouncers" will have trouble with anti-tank weapons. They may be able to out maneuver a TOW, but a APDSDU round from a 120 mm gun travels at about one mile per second. And tank fire control systems are very good today; they can hit "point" targets.

 

"Open battle": an engagement fought on a massive billiard table.