8pt CSL

[Tonio]

The 8-pt CSLs for "All Combat"... do they still apply to OCV or DCV? Or to both OCV and DCV? I'm thinking they work just like the 5 and 3 pointers, for either OCV or DCV... but it seems too expensive then, since for 9 pts I can have +1 to both at the same time (not considering NCM). Is the balancing factor just that, NCM? Or the fact that I can turn 'em into damage?

[JmOz]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

The 8-pt CSLs for "All Combat"... do they still apply to OCV or DCV? Or to both OCV and DCV? I'm thinking they work just like the 5 and 3 pointers' date=' for either OCV or DCV... but it seems too expensive then, since for 9 pts I can have +1 to both at the same time (not considering NCM). Is the balancing factor just that, NCM? Or the fact that I can turn 'em into damage?[/quote']

 

Well they are more common IME for Heroic, where NCM is a real issue.

 

Bouncing & Damage mitigate mildly, but you are right, you are normaly better with higher dex from a point point of view...espesialy if you have bought up your speed

[Mestopheles]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

It's just another option. Once you factor in NCM, added damage capabilities, and the choice of how you apply your bonuses each action, it's almost as good as DEX even without the bump to your SPD. IME and IMO it's fairly balanced, but it's slightly more effective when NCM apply.

 

It also lets you model characters more accurately that:

-are skilled in combat but not unusually "graceful"

-armor that defelects some attacks

-attacks that are larger that normal but fall shjort of a 1-hex AoE

And so on.

 

Of course DEX and SPD are desireable, but they may not fit the concept you're trying to model.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

The 8-pt CSLs for "All Combat"... do they still apply to OCV or DCV? Or to both OCV and DCV? I'm thinking they work just like the 5 and 3 pointers' date=' for either OCV or DCV... but it seems too expensive then, since for 9 pts I can have +1 to both at the same time (not considering NCM). Is the balancing factor just that, NCM? Or the fact that I can turn 'em into damage?[/quote']

 

I'd say both. A lot of levels are overpriced compared to the stat cost. Consider +1 to all interaction skills (5 points) vs +5 PRE (5 points), for example.

 

If they cost less, however, they would be too great a bargain when NCM kicks in.

 

There's probably something to be said for scrapping a lot of the levels system in favour of "+X Stat, only for purpose Y", and applying NCM to these stat bonuses. Or, alternatively, for applying NCM to any levels that take a roll beyond, say, 14- (base for a 20 stat + 1).

 

Not all levels - the damage conversion, bounce an attack aspects and other items in combat levels are different mechanics than DEX, for example.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

8 Point levels apply to mental combat as well.

 

6 point levels are better suited for non mentalists, unless you need to jack up your DECV frequently.

[Comic]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Heck, I'd even let 8 pt levels apply to 'Pre-based combat.' ie switch out two 8 pt levels for 1d6 PRE attack.

 

Which there's no way I'd do with a 5 pt level.

[Paragon]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

To the best of my knowledge, they only apply to one side at a time, but as others have said, they can even be applied to Ego Combat as far as I know. Are they overpriced compared to Dex. Yeah, pretty much, always have been. Their only virtue is that in games that pay attention to overall CV, you can do a certain amount of flexibility in use of them in generating high end results at one end or the other at need.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Generally my players use 6 point levels because they don't meet a lot of mentalists. Actually, who am I kidding? They use five point levels and then limit the crap out of them. *sniff* I love my little power gamers.

 

But no, seriously. They're a good deal for the money. The 8 Point CSL (unlike its siblings, the 2 & 3 point CSL) is not dedicated to a single task. It can float, not only among OCV, DCV or DCs, but also among Hand to Hand, Ranged & Mental Combat. That's the big trick with an 8 point level. A 6 point does the same thing, but only for two types of combat.

[Tonio]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Yeah, I'd totally spazzed on the ECV thing. That helps balance it out nicely.

 

Also, 6pt levels... TUS? Not in 5ER; at least I can't find 'em.

[Paragon]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Generally my players use 6 point levels because they don't meet a lot of mentalists. Actually, who am I kidding? They use five point levels and then limit the crap out of them. *sniff* I love my little power gamers.

 

But no, seriously. They're a good deal for the money. The 8 Point CSL (unlike its siblings, the 2 & 3 point CSL) is not dedicated to a single task. It can float, not only among OCV, DCV or DCs, but also among Hand to Hand, Ranged & Mental Combat. That's the big trick with an 8 point level. A 6 point does the same thing, but only for two types of combat.

 

The problem is you also have to compare it to buying Dexterity for most characters, as the Mental Combat aspects is partly moot for them (its useful defensively but means nothing offensively).

[Bloodstone]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Yeah, I'd totally spazzed on the ECV thing. That helps balance it out nicely.

 

Also, 6pt levels... TUS? Not in 5ER; at least I can't find 'em.

 

Yes, officially in TUS.

 

Pretty sure I saw them somewhere before that, since as the text explains they are basically 8pt levels with -1/4 lim.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

The problem is you also have to compare it to buying Dexterity for most characters' date=' as the Mental Combat aspects is partly moot for them (its useful defensively but means nothing offensively).[/quote']

 

Eh... maybe you have this problem in a supers campaign, but since I run Heroic, I really don't have to contend with that. As when my players are purchase their stats at the beginning, they can only have two stats over 15 anyway. And, this being a Heroic setting, their "stats" don't go up much. I'm also a stat minimalist. So while I agree that spending 9 points to get +1 OCV/+1 DCV is nice (as it's DEX/3, unless I'm mistaken) and assuming that Joe Player had the common sense to go to, say, 12 (making them 4/4) then the math gets fun after that.

 

To go to 15 costs 9 CP. Okay. You get +1/+1, and .3 points of SPD, and the skill boost (maybe) for going up to 15. Groovy. This is my complaint with DEX, in fact. Not that it's overpriced, that it does too darn much in the system. But that aside. Those same 9 points can do a GREAT deal in the right hands. Not the least of which:

 

- Get you a 5 point CSL with (Style). Or 3 3pt CSLs, a dedicated +1 DCV and +2 to Hit with a specific weapon, and so on.

 

- A whole bunch of skill points (remembering that +1 with all skills of a Category is 5 points, IIRC). Much cheaper than the extra Dex.

 

The list goes on. I freely admit that buying up stats in the system gets useful, with the right stats. I also submit that as I run Heroic genre games, it's less of an issue to me than it is to other folks.

[archermoo]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

The problem is you also have to compare it to buying Dexterity for most characters' date=' as the Mental Combat aspects is partly moot for them (its useful defensively but means nothing offensively).[/quote']

 

Why? If the Mental aspect isn't something they need/want they should be buying 6 point levels instead.

[Paragon]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Eh... maybe you have this problem in a supers campaign' date=' but since I run Heroic, I really [i']don't [/i]have to contend with that. As when my players are purchase their stats at the beginning, they can only have two stats over 15 anyway. And, this being a Heroic setting, their "stats" don't go up much. I'm also a stat minimalist. So while I agree that

 

 

That's artifact of how you're doing things though; in the regular rules that's only an issue when someone's already hit 20 Dex even in heroic campaigns. Otherwise, you can just buy 3 points of Dex, sell back the speed contribution, and get +1 OCV _and_ DCV for six points.

 

 

- A whole bunch of skill points (remembering that +1 with all skills of a Category is 5 points, IIRC). Much cheaper than the extra Dex.

 

 

Not if they're all Dex skills; at that point you've saved a point.

 

The list goes on. I freely admit that buying up stats in the system gets useful, with the right stats. I also submit that as I run Heroic genre games, it's less of an issue to me than it is to other folks.

 

Again, until people have hit the NCM limit, its just as much a problem there barring houserules.

[Paragon]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Why? If the Mental aspect isn't something they need/want they should be buying 6 point levels instead.

 

 

Those are even worse, as they're now identical to buying a CV through Dex if you sell the SPD back.

[boomer]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

The way we used to use it....3 pt CSL's were for a group of 3 manuevers.....we used to take it for Strike, Block and Dodge....of course this was for a Heroic (Fantasy Hero and Star Hero) campaign. 8 pt CSL's because of the price were to be used for any manuever you wanted.

[Vondy]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

In my game presence attacks are opposed characteristics rolls (with ego being a permitted alternative to presence, and relevant resistance and situational modifiers applying). I allow 8 point levels to be applied to OCV, DCV, ECV, or combat centric Presence Rolls.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Remember, too, that 8-point CSLs, like most others, can also be used to increase Damage from an attack. Not a benefit of increased DEX.

[Paragon]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Remember' date=' too, that 8-point CSLs, like most others, can also be used to increase Damage from an attack. Not a benefit of increased DEX.[/quote']

 

I was going to mention that as a mitigating factor earlier myself, and forgot.

[Bloodstone]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

While true, a high DEX/high OCV character can take the hit on OCV to attack more often against opponents with lower DCV. Of course, that reduces his DCV unless the attack is Autofire.

 

But a way to increase damage without having to convert CSLs.

[Paragon]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

And of course there's the question in a superheroic game whether you're allowed to exceed AP caps this way.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Buying lots of DEX is the "better buy"

 

but there's something to be said for Concept that over rides that.

[JmOz]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

Disclaimor: I'm tired, might be cranky

 

Disclaimor 2: Ghost Angel is cool, this is not aimed at him per say

 

Disclaimor 3: Tangient to thread

 

Disclaimor 4: I dislike the Iron Age type charcters, I question if the NCM disad is appropriate in a champions game ever, I like high stats characters

 

Disclaimor 5: I'm enjoying posting disclaimors

 

I have a problem with the idea of "concept overrideing cost effective builds"

 

In my experience you start to see characters like the Midnighter from the Authority over characters like Batman, characters who have some weird excuse to have the more effective build. I'm not saying every player is this way, just my experience says that it happens more than it does not. Also in game play if one character is built "cost effective" and another is built "By concept" it can cause some issues, this last point is not saying one is better than the other, just that mixing the two can cause problems,

[Alibear]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

The best thing about the 8 pointer is that it is only 2 xps away from an overall level.. :drool:

[JmOz]

Re: 8pt CSL

 

The best thing about the 8 pointer is that it is only 2 xps away from an overall level.. :drool:

 

Alot of truth in that...8 point CSL's are almost useless to me, but 10 pointers, oh those are sweet