Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

The main one? Dropping Comeliness as a characteristic. Decoupling Figured is going to make character generation more of a hassle. There's a few others but I'd have to go surfing through the 6th forums. Overall' date=' his design choices seem to be taking the game in a more mechanistic "wargame like" direction than I like to use. I noticed a bit of that in 5th edition as well but overall, I liked most of it so I brought in.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I'm not fond of the idea of getting rid of COM. Though for me at least decoupling Figureds will just simplify chargen.

 

And, again to me, the changes seem less wargame like than just nailing the rules down more so that it is easier to get them out of the way of the roleplaying.

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I'm just hoping is initial statement "there were things I wanted to change that the original designers of this fantastically successful and popular game vetoed" doesn't mean what I fear it means.

 

Well, he's been very open about the things that he is currently thinking about, how he feels about them, and why. If you are fearing particular changes, checking out the first post in the appropriate thread(s) should give you a good idea what he feels about it.

 

Though I'll point out that unless I'm mistaken the same people that vetoed his 5th edition changes were the ones who put out Champions: New Millennium.

 

And I stand corrected: Steve does have credit for "Additional Writing" for C:NM...

[incrdbil]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

The main one? Dropping Comeliness as a characteristic.

 

I really find this biarre,. Lets say Com just moves from being a Characteristic to a talent/perk. It gets a better definition of effects in the rules, and the point cost actually becomes justified more than it is now. You still can easily define the relative attarctiveness of your character, on the chartersheep using points--just in a different location.

 

That's a deal breaker?

[nexus]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I really find this biarre,. Lets say Com just moves from being a Characteristic to a talent/perk. It gets a better definition of effects in the rules, and the point cost actually becomes justified more than it is now.

 

*sigh*

 

Not in my opinion. For me, it works just fine as it is now. I've gone over this many times already in the relevant threads.

 

You still can easily define the relative attarctiveness of your character, on the chartersheet using points--just in a different location.

 

With what I find to be a less satisfactory mechanic, at least as has been proposed so far. I didn't like GURPS "Attractive" Talent or whatever it was called, why should I like basically the same thing in Hero?

 

That's a deal breaker?

 

I didn't say that alone would prevent me from being interested in 6th Edition. I'd have to house rule Comeliness back in which would be a pain in the *** That is one of the (thus far) proposed changes I am not pleased with. In and off itself, it is not a deal breaker.

 

Archermoo's question was what changes were being made that would directly impact my play style. Dropping Com is the biggie since I use it frequently and enjoy it functions as is.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Looking over this thread, it appears that the one "dealbreaker" most people agree on is "backwards compatibility." Individual details vary from person to person, but overall people want to be able to use their (often vast) collections of older HERO stuff with the new ruleset without a major hassle converting.

 

I can sympathize with that position. I have a lot of 5E stuff, but probably even more from 4E and earlier. I've had little trouble using the 4E material with the current rules, and even 3E and earlier stuff is readily portable to 5E if you're familiar with those earlier rules. OTOH Fuzion was too different from HERO for me to use without employing conversion formulae (and subjective judgement in some cases), and the setting wasn't "Wow!" enough to make me want to put in the effort.

 

For me, if the amount of change from 5E to 6E is comparable to that from 3E to 4E, I'll probably go for it. If it's comparable to the change from 4E to Fuzion, I'll probably pass. I also intend to pick up the 6E Basic book before investing in the full rules, to get an idea of how radical the changes are.

[Boll Weevil]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I would stick with 5th ed if the non-core rules books I have become obsolete. I'd buy the 6th ed rules but I would not support a new CU. I have not had a FTF gaming group in years but I still buy the Champions Universe series for the story line(s). I bought Stronghold as much to find out who was in it and how it affects the CU continuity as the prison itself.

[nexus]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Looking over this thread, it appears that the one "dealbreaker" most people agree on is "backwards compatibility." Individual details vary from person to person, but overall people want to be able to use their (often vast) collections of older HERO stuff with the new ruleset without a major hassle converting.

 

I can sympathize with that position. I have a lot of 5E stuff, but probably even more from 4E and earlier. I've had little trouble using the 4E material with the current rules, and even 3E and earlier stuff is readily portable to 5E if you're familiar with those earlier rules. OTOH Fuzion was too different from HERO for me to use without employing conversion formulae (and subjective judgement in some cases), and the setting wasn't "Wow!" enough to make me want to put in the effort.

 

For me, if the amount of change from 5E to 6E is comparable to that from 3E to 4E, I'll probably go for it. If it's comparable to the change from 4E to Fuzion, I'll probably pass. I also intend to pick up the 6E Basic book before investing in the full rules, to get an idea of how radical the changes are.

 

Backwards compatibility is an issue for me. Frankly, I don't have the money to buy "everything' again, the time to learn it (one of the reason I love Hero is because I can usually try new things without learning a new system) or to convert the many PCs and NPCs I have created.

 

Fortunately, I am pretty certain Steve Long is taking that into account in his decision making process and some of the more radical suggestions ("Tear the whole thing down and start from scratch!") won't sway him too much in that direction.

[nexus]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I received an email notification containing a post from someone I have on Ignore. I felt I should respond to it to avoid confusion. I'm not going into the whys behind my preference for Comeliness in thread and I've largely stopped talking about it in others after being pretty active about it, even trying to suggest a compromise viewpoint. The responses to Com discussions tend to be of the variety, snarky or even borderline hostile and its just not worth the stress over an opinion.

[CTaylor]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

They can acknowledge the market is the new player or they can continue add layers of complication and listen to the drum beat of the "old guard" who refuse to acknowledge they could be wrong and their 25 years experience with the system actually disqualifies them on the subject of new players, not enhances it.

 

That's the approach that gave us Fuzion.

 

I believe it's pretty obvious, given the 6th edition message board and Steve directly asking for input that this is not a philosophy he shares.

[Spence]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

That's the approach that gave us Fuzion.

 

I believe it's pretty obvious, given the 6th edition message board and Steve directly asking for input that this is not a philosophy he shares.

 

clarification: by "old guard" I mean some of the long term players.

 

I don't want to imply I am talking about the actual company or anything. Even though it seems I did just that. Sorry about that, once again my BBS-fu fails....

 

As far as I have read DOJ hasn't firmly decided that much yet and all of my personal concerns, backwards compatibility, etc are still up there in the good. Of course the volume of material on the 6th ed board has just completely left me behind.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Right now I think Hero is at the precipice. They can acknowledge the market is the new player or they can continue add layers of complication and listen to the drum beat of the "old guard" who refuse to acknowledge they could be wrong and their 25 years experience with the system actually disqualifies them on the subject of new players' date=' not enhances it. [/quote']I don't think any of the long time layers/old timers have advocated no changes whatsoever in 6E. I, and I suspect a lot of us other dinosaurs, are simply against arbitrary changes or ones which do nothing to actually improve the Hero System. There's a reason we've stayed loyal to the system for 20+ years: It works; and works pretty damn well.

 

As for being disqualified on the subject of new players, we've brought a number of new players into our campaign since our campaign started in 1993. In fact, three of our Champions campaign's current group of eight players came to role-playing through our campaign. The asteroid hasn't quite hit yet.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Right now I think Hero is at the precipice. They can acknowledge the market is the new player or they can continue add layers of complication and listen to the drum beat of the "old guard" who refuse to acknowledge they could be wrong and their 25 years experience with the system actually disqualifies them on the subject of new players' date=' not enhances it. [/quote']

 

 

I don't really think that is a fair comment, I've seen quite a few "old guard" players who are advocating a smaller HERO. Many point to earlier editions and ask why has HERO bloated. Personally I'd like to see a return to a book the size of 4th ed, it was complete without being scary to new players.

 

Yes some are clamoring for two tomes HERO for 6th but I don't think they really represent the majority of long time players.

[Spence]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Actually I don't think I came across as I intended. I am not trying to say anyone did anything wrong or intentionally wrong.

 

Well, I have gone down this road before and have had everyone simply miss my intent altogether and shoebox my position into one of the other ongoing debates.

 

So I'll just apologize to Trebuchet, Toadmaster and any others that may have taken offense and withdraw my comment. One day I will have to sit down and see if I can articulate what I actually mean in a manner that everyone will understand. I have a pretty solid feeling that the fault lies with me and not everyone else.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

No offense taken from me. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

[Spence]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

No offense taken from me. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

 

Nope. It is all me. I have been not able to get this particular concept across for a long time.

 

 

There was a time I thought people were being deliberately obtuse. But after a while one has to realize if no one follows your line of reasoning, then the problem may lie closer to home.

[Gadodel]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Honestly?

 

It's out of my hands.

 

My players have already said that once D&D 4E comes out, they'll be busy converting their various D&D worlds to it. They obviously will want to play D&D for quite awhile. They are essentially going to drop all of the other games they are playing to do this-even the Mutants and Masterminds campaign I've talked them into playing in. In short, they won't be too interested in even playing HERO 5E after June.

 

6E is a ways off, but I don't see any of my players getting tired of D&D for atleast awhile...two or three years maybe. If or when that happens, two of my players have said that they will definitely check out HERO 6E...

 

The 'deal-breaker' for HERO 6E is D&D 4E. For now. Though, I might be able to bring some of them back into the fold. Essentially, the timing of all this has been problematic.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

So I'll just apologize to Trebuchet' date=' Toadmaster and any others that may have taken offense and withdraw my comment. One day I will have to sit down and see if I can articulate what I actually mean in a manner that everyone will understand. I have a pretty solid feeling that the fault lies with me and not everyone else.[/quote']I didn't take it as an offense at all. I figured you were making a valid observation and responded with my own observation. I'm sure there are players out there who oppose any changes; heck I know Hero players out there still using 4th Edition because they were unhappy with changes in 5th or didn't want to redesign their 14,000 4th Edition characters. All I was saying is that it's not a good idea to lump everyone opposed to changes in one category; there undoubtedly numerous valid and/or invalid reasons to oppose changes in 6E.

[nexus]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Personally, I’m not opposed to any changes in 6th edition I’m just not fond of the ones I’ve seen proposed so far. If that makes me one of the “old guard” then so be it. But frankly, I don’t think disregarding the “old guard” is a good idea. Right now, I’d argue the old guard makes up the majority of Hero System players. They’re ones that have been supporting the system for years.

 

This doesn’t give them any sort of entitlement; any commercial product has to attract new customers but the “old guard” as Trebuchet observed have also been the one recruiting new players for their years. They might not be quite as clueless regarding what new players find daunting or attractive about the system as some may think. In my experience, one of the best ways to learn a new system is to play with people that understand it particularly a system like Hero which, while not as complicated as it made out to be, isn’t “Rules lite” by any stretch of the imagination.

 

And to be blunt, lets face facts. Hero System is never going to be d20. As much as we, ,the fans, might love to see that happen, I seriously doubt it ever will. It doesn’t have a major company backing it and, honestly, it’s facing years of accumulated disdain and bad word of mouth press. Can Hero System be more popular? Most certainly but again the “old guard” doesn’t exist in a vacuum, most of them have been playing rpgs and more than just Hero for years. They may just have some idea what the young’uns are doing these days

 

But if Hero loses its old guard players it’s unlikely that it’s going to attract new players fast enough to replace them, even if it undergoes the radical transformation that would probable require. So brushing off the fanbase as stubborn old grognards is probably not a good idea from a business perspective. Tradition should not be a straight jacket but it’s something to be considered. Some of these people have been involved as players with Hero for as long as Steve Long, perhaps even longer, tinkering with it, selling it to new players and examining its rough spots and their input shouldn’t be ignored. After all, Hero System must have doing something right all these years to have such a dedicated old guard to begin with. I don’t think that should be taken lightly or ignored.

[incrdbil]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

There's always a fine balance in transitions. Veteran players can be important, just for the reason Nexus pointed out--word of mouth, recruiting new players. The balance lies in finding that point where appeasing old guard doesn't change from being a plus into a minus if it means maintaining a game in a state that isn't good at recruiting new players no matter how many veterans are trying.

 

It's not easy to nail everyone down into easy categories..which might make an entire 'deal breaker' thread sort of futile We really don't even know if our stated 'deal-breakers' will break that deal because we haven't seen the total package. I really doubt just one certain change will make people abandon HERO, or refuse to move on. It's going to be a cumulative effect, an equation of gains versus percieved losses for each individual who makes that call. we won't know those gains ourselves till we've all curled up with 6e for a bit.

 

Still I think this thread has been good--, some points of vew and explanations just seemed to come across better than on other threads. I think many POV's that just didn't make sense to me make more sense now, now that I see the frameworks of thoughts and feelings behind them.

 

I also see that the traditional internet problem of assuming of a common frame of rference has been undoing many of these 6e threads, because in our feelings on changes, impacts, and ultiate impact of change, many of us have some very important differences in perception that make us misunderstand the scale of importance of certain issues to each person. At one point I thought continued discussion was useless, but now I see genuine discussion isn't useless, but sometimes it takes a lot of time before talking at each other is done, and we start talking with each other. I've been guilty of the talking at portion at times, and hope to improve in the future.

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

At one point I thought continued discussion was useless' date=' but now I see genuine discussion isn't useless, but sometimes it takes a lot of time before talking [i']at[/i] each other is done, and we start talking with each other. I've been guilty of the talking at portion at times, and hope to improve in the future.

 

I gave up on the 6e threads when I realized that there were too many people who at least seem unable (or possibly just unwilling) to separate their personal POV/opinions from objective fact. "I find this point to be very important" I don't have any problem with, whether I agree or not. "My point is objectively more important than yours" I do object to when the issues are opinion rather than fact.

 

Well, that and I had made my points on the issues that I care about. The fact that there are still other posters who disagree with my points doesn't particularly concern me. They aren't the ones that I need to convince. Steve is.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I listed specifics earlier in the thread, but I realized the general - and it does have to do with backwards compatibility.

 

I want to see the basic game unchanged - jiggering around with points, or the definition of the odd power or advantage (much like Flash or Aid moving from 4th to 5th) is just fine. But I want to be able to play a 5th character in 6th without much more than a cursory ready of the rules (again much like 4th to 5th).

 

Removing characteristics, severely changing or removing frameworks, changing/removing the speed chart - those are the things that would kill it for me.

 

I want to see 6th as an Upgrade (like a really cool universal Ultimate book) than a big change.

 

 

Based on Steve's original posts about what he is interested in changing, it looks like I will be out of luck*.

 

 

*Drain luck 10d6, ranged, Focus 6th Ed rulebook-1

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I listed specifics earlier in the thread, but I realized the general - and it does have to do with backwards compatibility.

 

I want to see the basic game unchanged - jiggering around with points, or the definition of the odd power or advantage (much like Flash or Aid moving from 4th to 5th) is just fine. But I want to be able to play a 5th character in 6th without much more than a cursory ready of the rules (again much like 4th to 5th).

 

Removing characteristics, severely changing or removing frameworks, changing/removing the speed chart - those are the things that would kill it for me.

 

I want to see 6th as an Upgrade (like a really cool universal Ultimate book) than a big change.

 

 

Based on Steve's original posts about what he is interested in changing, it looks like I will be out of luck*.

 

 

*Drain luck 10d6, ranged, Focus 6th Ed rulebook-1

 

Well, for what it is worth, of the three changes you mentioned that are the type of things that would kill it for you, only one of them did Steve say he was planning on doing in his initial posts. Which is to say removing a characteristic, specifically COM. He brought up the idea of making changes to frameworks and reworking the Speed Chart, but also stated that he didn't think either of them was a good idea.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

To be honest, the impression I got from Steve Long's initial remarks on the 6E forums is that he personally doesn't feel a need to change HERO System in radical ways. Nothing he himself brought up seems to me to be more of a fundamental shift than what was done to unify the HERO System for Fourth Edition. It's to Steve's credit that he's willing to entertain suggestions on just about any element of the rules, but we shouldn't assume that any of the opinions put forth on those threads by other people will actually make it into 6E.

 

If Steve confined the new edition's modifications just to those he himself proposed, I'll probably be able to work with it well enough.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Well' date=' for what it is worth, of the three changes you mentioned that are the type of things that would kill it for you, only one of them did Steve say he was planning on doing in his initial posts. Which is to say removing a characteristic, specifically COM. He brought up the idea of making changes to frameworks and reworking the Speed Chart, but also stated that he didn't think either of them was a good idea.[/quote']

 

Yeah.

 

I also really don't like the meters for movement, I prefer my inches. But if that and some power changes are the extent of it, I'll be good. I still don't like the idea of divorcing figured characteristics, but that is just a cost/points issue. I'll keep them in my game, but whatever.

 

As long as a character sheet (minus the costs) can be used cross editions with no headache, I'm all for that.

 

3rd to 4th was a radical change because they moved from a game Engine with each game having it's own rules to a game system that was universal. That change was large, and I didn't have a lot invested (in time, writeups and whatnot) in 3rd. 4th to 5th was a bugfix. If the 5th to 6th is as great as 3rd to 4th, I'll stay fifth. If it is a bugfix, but a relatively major one, I'll stay onboard.

 

We'll see.

 

I collect superhero RPGs for conversion, so even if 6th is too different, I can use it that way.

[pinecone]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

For myself I pretty much think this particular thread isn't answerable since nothing in 6th has even been established.....

 

That I know of. The 6th ed forum has exploded to the point I could read it if read it was my job and I put in 50 hours a week.

 

I had a suggestion but just figuring out which thread to put it in, let alone read the 52 million previous posts to see if it was already mentioned isn't going to happen. At least not while I actually have a job and need to eat

 

Spence

 

*I'm not whining as much as completely befuddled *

 

Don't get scared by the size, most of the threads are about 50% the same 3 people saying the same three things at each other, several times...