Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

[nexus]

Are there any changes that would make you pass completely on 6th edition if they do or not come to pass? If so what are they?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

If the system becomes more restrictive vs cleaner, less specific genre oriented and more universal, and more flexible --- thats the deal breaker for me.

[nexus]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

If the system becomes more restrictive vs cleaner' date=' less specific genre oriented and more universal, and more flexible --- thats the deal breaker for me.[/quote']

 

I think I'm misreading you, so may I ask you for clarification?

[incrdbil]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

If the system becomes more restrictive vs cleaner' date=' less specific genre oriented and more universal, and more flexible --- thats the deal breaker for me.[/quote']

 

 

Thats pretty much it. I'll add, in a general way if it becomes more detailed, more cumbersome, that could be a sticking point. It certainly wouldn't be encouraging me to embrace a new edition, if mechanics grow more involved, more characteristics are added, rules or creation of characters becomes more involved in terms of effort.

 

Even then, uIt may be the quality of product released for 6th ediiton may overcome that, or may still merit purchasing then using either refitted for 5th edition, or house-ruled somewhat, though I hate having to house-rule a lot of details.

 

There's a breaking point on house rules use for me, but I can't say sight unseen what that point would be. If there's enough extra work I have to do to 6e to make it work as a basic engine to satisfy my requirements then I'll consider alternatives. but I'm going to certainyl give it a try--after so many versiosn of the game working well, and improving each time, I'm certainly not going to refuse to try the new game just because every change doesn't cater to my whim.

 

On the other hand, I do expect some changes for the better--if there is going to be a new ediiton, it better have enough changes to merit a re-purchase. I avoided that D&d 3.0 -3.5 scam, and I'd like to keep avoiding that experience.

 

So in a way, not having enough change could be a sort of deal breaker..or crucially undermine the trust that has ben earned.

 

I can't name any one specific rules change that would make me throw a hissy fit and take my ball and leave the playground. I can accept changes I wont like at all if they are accompanied (and outweighed) by ones that work well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I think I'm misreading you' date=' so may I ask you for clarification?[/quote']

 

Sure, no problem, ill try saying it a different way. What I love about the HERO System is its flexibility and the ease with which I can use it to do anything I want, in any genre I feel like. Changes that reduce either or both would be deal breakers, while changes that improve either or both would be well received.

[nexus]

Re: Do you have any "deal breakers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Sorry, I was misreading you. Thanks

[CTaylor]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Without being specific: if the new edition changes the game so much that it becomes a new game rather than a new edition of a game, I'll likely stay with 5th edition. If they pull a Fuzion with this edition, it's hasta la vista.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Mine is, if it sucks.

 

Ok, if I can't update my "Robot Warriors" document to 6th edition.

 

More generally, if I can't use my old stuff with the new game, I'm a lot less likely to buy it. Not saying I won't.

[gojira]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

I have a bad feeling that there's some "change for change's sake" in 6e. That said I also don't see anything that's a deal breaker that's been discussed in the 6e forum.

 

One possibility is that if the changes don't actually achieve anything. I didn't care for GURPS 4e, and thinking about this I'd say that it's because SJ Games added a lot of changes, but didn't truly achieve the ease of play and reforms they were looking for. So what they ended up with was change for change's sake.

 

I think 6e needs to streamline everything possible. Then take a good hard look at and ask "Is this really worth it?" Don't release if the answer is "no." There's a motto in the software engineering field: "Build one to throw away." Hero should be prepared to throw away 6e if it isn't going to be very well received.

 

It's possible to get away with small changes, like from 4th Ed. to 5er, but again too much change could Fuzion things up. I'm honestly not sure where the line is between those two.

 

At this point I'm pretty much trusting that Steve and co. know what they are doing. They've been pretty much right on the money these past few years, and COMMO was a big break for them. I hope things turn out well.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Without being specific: if the new edition changes the game so much that it becomes a new game rather than a new edition of a game' date=' I'll likely stay with 5th edition. If they pull a Fuzion with this edition, it's hasta la vista.[/quote']

More generally' date=' if I can't use my old stuff with the new game, I'm a lot less likely to buy it. Not saying I won't.[/quote']This much pretty much sums up my view as well. It isn't really so much any single change that would break the deal for me, as the totality of what's done and how well I can translate 5th Ed stuff (and even some 4th Ed stuff) into the new edition.

 

The closest thing I can think of to a single change that would do that would be to remove the formulas for Figured Characteristics, and making them just Secondaries (or whatever) with flat base amounts. That would either throw things so off kilter as to skew balance, or require so many changes to steady the balance that it's hardly recognizable. (That debate's over in the 6th Edition forum, though.) I wouldn't necessarily dump 6th Edition on that basis alone, but it's the best candidate.

[Silbeg]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

The closest thing I can think of to a single change that would do that would be to remove the formulas for Figured Characteristics' date=' and making them just Secondaries (or whatever) with flat base amounts. That would either throw things so off kilter as to skew balance, or require so many changes to steady the balance that it's hardly recognizable. (That debate's over in the 6th Edition forum, though.) I wouldn't necessarily dump 6th Edition on that basis alone, but it's the best candidate.[/quote']

 

 

That is pretty much where I am as well, Bob. From what Steve was saying he was thinking of removing the "figured" part of figured characteristics, without rebalancing the point costs of the primary characteristics.

 

Ok, I can see where DEX is probably still pretty much ok at 3 points per... mostly. However, CON at 2 points, when it pretty much only gives resistance to Stunning? That is a big beef of mine.

 

However, generally speaking, my gaming group has been slow to adopt new versions, even though we may purchase them early.

 

But, given the 3' of HERO 5E books I currently own, I really don't want to have to reinvest all of that. So, if the mechanics of the game change so much that you cannot use characters without major retrofits, and if the game no longer feels like HERO, but a pen and paper version of a MMO, then...

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Well obviously if it sucks, but I doubt that.

 

For me -

Removing the speed chart.

Removing any of the characteristics (including COM).

Dropping figured characteristics.

Major changes to the frameworks - I like my MP, VVP And ECs the way they are.

Changing the cost on characteristics.

Changing the formula for combat - by which I mean changing the formula itself, not just how it is presented; if the math is the same I'm all good.

 

 

Changing some specific powers, or adjusting them (as was done from 3rd to 4th and 4th to 5th I don't mind).

[archermoo]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

If there is anything that would in and of itself keep me from going to 6e it would be getting rid of the Speed Chart. Though even then I'd be willing to take a look and see if I liked what they replaced it with.

 

I feel confident that Steve won't be changing anything without what he considers to be a good reason to do it. Whether I or anyone else will agree with his reasons is another matter entirely, but I don't see him changing anything just for the sake of change. And in general I think I have more in similar with Steve's POV on Hero than not, so I'm not overly worried about what he'll be changing.

[CTaylor]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Yeah dumping the speed chart or some major change to the rules would make me stay with 5th edition. I mean, how many of us stayed with 4th edition and ignored the fact that Fuzion even existed? That's the kind of thing that the Hero team has to avoid: making something so different and obnoxious people just shrug and pretend it doesn't exist.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

It changes dice mechanics or types.

 

I like 3D6. I do not want to change to new dice. I do not want to relearn probabilities, appropriate adjustments for ease/difficulty and a million other modifiers. It is hardcoded into my gaming skull now.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

There are a few things. If the game becomes more mechanical and less fun, that'll kill it for me. If it's clear in the final version Steve didn't actually listen to anyone, that'll nuke it from orbit. There are plenty of things I disagree with. For one, DEX is 3/1 because it confers a stupid number of benefits. If it STOPS doing that, then it stops being as useful, and should thusly be cheaper. INT should go up in cost, since it's one of the three "skill stats." I can go on like this for quite some time.

 

But at the end of the day.

 

If I have to change my sig, I will not buy 6th. No, I'm serious. If the rules changes are so severe that a simple construction like my HICCoS will need rewritten, I'll stick to 5ER.

[Kenn]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

This much pretty much sums up my view as well. It isn't really so much any single change that would break the deal for me, as the totality of what's done and how well I can translate 5th Ed stuff (and even some 4th Ed stuff) into the new edition.

 

The closest thing I can think of to a single change that would do that would be to remove the formulas for Figured Characteristics, and making them just Secondaries (or whatever) with flat base amounts. That would either throw things so off kilter as to skew balance, or require so many changes to steady the balance that it's hardly recognizable. (That debate's over in the 6th Edition forum, though.) I wouldn't necessarily dump 6th Edition on that basis alone, but it's the best candidate.

 

What Bob said.

 

I'm still working on the conversion from 4th to 5th Edition for my gaming world. Thankfully, the changes between 4th and 5th weren't so extensive that this has been a problem.

 

Since I won't likely finish by the time there's a 6th edition out... The degee of backwards compatability would probably be the big deal breaker for me. But I'm a pessimist so I'm really waiting for a sign of a deal MAKER.

[McCoy]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Character classes and levels

 

"Hit Points" instead of seperate BODY & STUN pips

 

No Speed chart

 

In short, any change to make it more like d20.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

In short' date=' any change to make it more like d20.[/quote']

 

d20 sells very well. Presumably, you'd be OK if Hero 6e did as well, since higher sales would certainly be something one would expect Hero to aim for.

[McCoy]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Character classes and levels

 

"Hit Points" instead of seperate BODY & STUN pips

 

No Speed chart

 

In short, any change to make it more like d20.

 

d20 sells very well. Presumably' date=' you'd be OK if Hero 6e did as well, since higher sales would certainly be something one would expect Hero to aim for. [/quote']

If I wanted to be playing d20, I can do that already. I don't work for and am not a stockholder of Hero Games, the sales do not affect me enough to be the overriding consideration. I've committed to buying the 6th edition core rules, if it has been "d20-ized" to the point it is no longer enjoyable to me I will wish Steve and Co, well, and start spending more time with my City of Heroes characters.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

d20 sells very well. Presumably' date=' you'd be OK if Hero 6e did as well, since higher sales would certainly be something one would expect Hero to aim for. [/quote']Hero is what I played to escape the death grip of TSR Games and Dungeon & Dragons; I have zero interest in falling back into the clutches of the D&D juggernaut. If I want fantasy gaming; Fantasy Hero is a far superior product - and one where my cross-genre reference books like The Hero System Bestiary and TUV are still useful.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

If I wanted to be playing d20' date=' I can do that already. I don't work for and am not a stockholder of Hero Games, the sales do not affect me enough to be the overriding consideration. I've committed to buying the 6th edition core rules, if it has been "d20-ized" to the point it is no longer enjoyable to me I will wish Steve and Co, well, and start spending more time with my City of Heroes characters.[/quote']

 

Hero is what I played to escape the death grip of TSR Games and Dungeon & Dragons; I have zero interest in falling back into the clutches of the D&D juggernaut. If I want fantasy gaming; Fantasy Hero is a far superior product - and one where my cross-genre reference books like The Hero System Bestiary and TUV are still useful.

 

I suspect I'm being misread. My comment was intended to be facetious and simply say that I hoped the core Hero gamers wouldn't leave simply because a larger portion of the gaming community saw the light and started playing Hero, building up its sales.

 

I play some d20 games and some Hero games, and I have no desire to see them become more similar for the sake of being more similar. I'd love to see Hero sales (of a true Hero product) become more similar to d20 sales, though. hat means Hero has more resources for future products.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

My comment was intended to be facetious and simply say that I hoped the core Hero gamers wouldn't leave simply because a larger portion of the gaming community saw the light and started playing Hero' date=' building up its sales.[/quote']Building up sales is good; but my experience with sudden popularity of something I already like is not good. It seems when something becomes the new fad it both dilutes what was good and brings in new people who don't enhance the experience. I remember playing the original boxed D&D when it was nothing but an outré hobby for college geeks, and compare that to the latter highly polished product put out when the system was re-targeted at 14-year-olds and shudder. Sure, a few of those new players eventually became good gamers but a lot of them were simply a detriment to the gaming community.

 

Hero already attracts a "higher class" of gamers IMO and I'm not sure that popularizing it to attract the unwashed masses is necessarily going to be an enhancement of my hobby. YMMV.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Yes, there's one thing that we all would like to see Hero emulate from d20: the sales figures.

[nexus]

Re: Do you have any "deal brekers" when it comes 6th edition?

 

Off topic...

 

Oddly, I have never played a d20 game and enjoyed it. The system just grates against me for some reason. I can love the setting, have a fun character and still the mechanics are like nails on a chalkboard that suck the fun out of the entire session. And I can play terrible systems and still have fun, even Palladium or Storytelling Adventure System. Maybe it's just Player Hatin' but I can't get over it.