Self-destruct attacks

[Zeropoint]

I'm just wondering if there's any precedent for a character having an attack that will guarantee the character's death, and any limitations or point savings that are associated with that. For example, picture a power armor character who can, as a last resort, detonate his suit's power supply as a nuclear bomb. Game mehcanically, this would simply be a very large explosion WITHOUT "personal immunity", and One Charge Which Never Recovers would be an obvious choice as well. Even so, with the active points in the attack, it will still be pretty expensive for a power that the player hopes never to use.

 

Any thoughts on this, or examples from previously played games?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

There have actually been a few published examples of such constructs in Hero books. The current incarnation of Mechanon, in the Champions genre book, has a self-destruct attack which is a huge RKA NND Does BODY, Self Only, One Non-recoverable Charge. I also recall a spell from the Fourth Edition of Fantasy Hero, which consigned everyone near the caster, including the caster himself, into a nether-region called the Void (EDM UAA), its material component being the caster's own cut-off hand. There have also been a few "suicide implant" devices which used HKA instead of RKA (can do more damage that way).

 

Aside from established Limitations like "Self Only" and "One Charge Never Recovers", I don't recall any other cost breaks for them, and at this point I don't see the appropriateness of any others. If a character builds or obtains a device like this, even though it will kill the character, they've obviously foreseen circumstances in which they would choose to use it. That argues that the build is in the ultimate sense "beneficial" to the character, so they should be charged for it as usual IMO.

 

I'm open to counter arguments, though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

Hmm. Not sure how heroic a self destruct explosion is in most cases. Depends, I suppose...

 

One way around the prohibitive cost is to use a heavily advantaged attack, something like this:

 

Reactor Overload: radiation pulse: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, No Normal Defense (Force Fields or LS: Radiation; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (48" Radius; +2), Autofire (32 shots; +3 1/4) (41 Active Points); 32 Charges which Never Recover (-1 3/4), No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (All charges have to be used simultaneously; -1/2)

 

So, 41 active points, 11 real. You can probably make it cheaper with tinkering. You may want to add 'trigger', which will make it more expensive. Basically when the power is activated all 32 charges go off and you get pulses of radiation in a 48" radius that destroys everything that is not radiation shielded or protected by a force field. Damage will be 32 Body NND, and a shed load of stun.

 

Pretty doomsday. Also horribly abusive if it was a power you could use generally, but as a one off Deus Ex Machina, you might persuade a GM to let you have it.

 

Have you read 'Matter' by Iain Banks?

[Doc]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

Hmm. Not sure how heroic a self destruct explosion is in most cases. Depends, I suppose...

 

One way around the prohibitive cost is to use a heavily advantaged attack, something like this:

 

Reactor Overload: radiation pulse: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, No Normal Defense (Force Fields or LS: Radiation; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (48" Radius; +2), Autofire (32 shots; +3 1/4) (41 Active Points); 32 Charges which Never Recover (-1 3/4), No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (All charges have to be used simultaneously; -1/2)

 

So, 41 active points, 11 real. You can probably make it cheaper with tinkering. You may want to add 'trigger', which will make it more expensive. Basically when the power is activated all 32 charges go off and you get pulses of radiation in a 48" radius that destroys everything that is not radiation shielded or protected by a force field. Damage will be 32 Body NND, and a shed load of stun.

 

Pretty doomsday. Also horribly abusive if it was a power you could use generally, but as a one off Deus Ex Machina, you might persuade a GM to let you have it.

 

Have you read 'Matter' by Iain Banks?

 

 

 

Pretty cool... and frightening...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

Pretty cool... and frightening...

 

HeroGM Rule #1 - always consider very carefully any power with more than +1 in advantages.

[sbarron]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

Hmm. Not sure how heroic a self destruct explosion is in most cases. Depends' date=' I suppose...[/quote']The one example I know of this (and is possibly the OP's source) was a book called Armor. Humans in combat armor fighting giant insects on a hostile planet. The soldiers could detonate their suit by activating all the systems at once, resulting in a nuclear explosion. In a desperate attempt to destroy a hive before the human forces were over-run, a paralyzed charcter was thrown down into the hive with instructions to detonate his suit. He did. It seemed pretty heroic to me.

 

If this is for a champions (self-destruct power) or fantasy game (retributive strike), I'd make the character pay the points for the power. If it were a space marine type game, or any other heroic game, then the power would just be standard for the setting, and therefore wouldn't cost any points (and wouldn't need to be statted out).

[Kdansky]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

That is a hilarious construct

 

You can also go with the following to cut costs for no real disadvantage.

 

Extra Time: Full Phase (-1/2)

One Charge, never recovers: -4

Costs End (-1/2)

Extra END: x10 (-4) (you just pay with STUN, and then you just KO yourself. Does not matter, does it?)

 

So that's a full division by 10, which sounds better than only /4 or so. Still too expensive in my oppinion. You can of course use Seans Funny Approach.

[Beast]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

I would not have the hero buy a self destruct charge

if it came to be that a hero wanted to something like this I would take the largest power the had say their armor's weapons multi power take the active points from that plus all the points from the MP slots

add up all the limitations it had to begin with

add in 1 charge never recovers -4

full phase -1/2

gestures-1/4(you know what I mean)

incantations-1/4(you know what I mean)

apply this to the real points the hero paid to have the MP and refigure for a new active point total

treat as RKA explosion(add mega-scale if needed)

should the hero have time to add in points from the any outside systems(EC's end reserves,etc....)at the rate of 10 pts per point made using the right skill(weaponsmith,power skill,demolitions

 

the last thing you want to have is a way to destroy yourself and your foe figures out how to set it off

[Basil]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

I'd add in:

 

Side Effect: Will Absolutely Kill The Character Totally, Regardless of Stats, Defenses, Other Power(s), Luck, The Damage Roll Or Any Other Flippin' Thing (Major Side Effect, Occurs Automatically Whenever Power Is Used (x2), -1)

 

YMMV.

[pinecone]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

You can just by SE: 60+ pts of damage that bypasses all defenses...that pretty much kills you and gives a bigger cost break on the "Nova Flare" power as well....

[Narratio]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

Reactor Overload: radiation pulse: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point' date=' No Normal Defense (Force Fields or LS: Radiation; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (48" Radius; +2), Autofire (32 shots; +3 1/4) (41 Active Points); 32 Charges which Never Recover (-1 3/4), No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (All charges have to be used simultaneously; -1/2)[/i']

 

Now THAT is fun! I'd have to ask what player, in his/her right mind would enter a game with this as a prebought item on his/her character sheet? 'Cos I don't want them in my group... or town, county, country, continent and I'm not too happy with them being on this planet either.

 

As a GM's plot device it's kinda' cool.

[Beast]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

I would leave it up to the GM that the character might survive by some miracle I mean this is comics

If the GM did have the character live I would tell the player that was a 1 time thing you can never do it again

 

I'd add in:

 

Side Effect: Will Absolutely Kill The Character Totally, Regardless of Stats, Defenses, Other Power(s), Luck, The Damage Roll Or Any Other Flippin' Thing (Major Side Effect, Occurs Automatically Whenever Power Is Used (x2), -1)

 

YMMV.

[Basil]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

I'd add in:

 

Side Effect: Will Absolutely Kill The Character Totally, Regardless of Stats, Defenses, Other Power(s), Luck, The Damage Roll Or Any Other Flippin' Thing (Major Side Effect, Occurs Automatically Whenever Power Is Used (x2), -1)

 

YMMV.

I would leave it up to the GM that the character might survive by some miracle I mean this is comics

If the GM did have the character live I would tell the player that was a 1 time thing you can never do it again

 

The OP asked for something that would absolutely kill the character. I figured, instead of making the power big or nasty or Penetrating x5 or something like that, to just say "he's dead." Easy, simple, and direct. And then give a reasonable (IMO) Limitation for it.

 

If you want "well maybe, maybe he could survive," that's something else. Not what was asked for.

[Tech]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

That is a hilarious construct

 

You can also go with the following to cut costs for no real disadvantage.

 

Extra Time: Full Phase (-1/2)

One Charge, never recovers: -4

Costs End (-1/2)

Extra END: x10 (-4) (you just pay with STUN, and then you just KO yourself. Does not matter, does it?)

 

So that's a full division by 10, which sounds better than only /4 or so. Still too expensive in my oppinion. You can of course use Seans Funny Approach.

 

Although legal by the book, I would think the Costs End and Extra END is a no-go because disadvantages are being given that do not disadvantage the character. Why? Because of the self-destruct - it has no real effect on the character once they've blown up/self-destructed/whatever.

 

However...

 

I would allow it if the character can come back. You can only self-destruct once... usually. Or to use an old quote: If you don't see the body, they're probably on their way to Acapulco.

[Tech]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

We tend to think that self-destruct means that the person died. Actually, that's incorrect logic. To self-destruct means you blew up with force for whatever reason and although for us normal humans, it means death, it doesn't necessarily mean that in a superheroic world.

 

I have a villain who blows up for his main attack but it doesn't bother him.

[Beast]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

I've see plenty of characters that do that type of attack

but in the context of I'm overloading the reactor and doing it with so little warning that even I won't escape kind of thing

 

your villian is bleeding out and has 1 chance to kill his hated foe and with all his/her will he/she overloads his/ her power beyond anything that they have ever tried before to kill that hero

 

 

We tend to think that self-destruct means that the person died. Actually, that's incorrect logic. To self-destruct means you blew up with force for whatever reason and although for us normal humans, it means death, it doesn't necessarily mean that in a superheroic world.

 

I have a villain who blows up for his main attack but it doesn't bother him.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

The Ultimate Self Destruct:

 

Hearing Group Flash 1d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; Power triggers when killed; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (5 Active Points); IAF: The Planet Earth, Expendable (Extremely Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1 1/2) 5 Active, 2 Real

 

Soooo....you die, there is this little 'Pop' sound, and the whole planet implodes. Cool, huh?

[Doc]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

The Ultimate Self Destruct:

 

Hearing Group Flash 1d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; Power triggers when killed; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (5 Active Points); IAF: The Planet Earth, Expendable (Extremely Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1 1/2) 5 Active, 2 Real

 

Soooo....you die, there is this little 'Pop' sound, and the whole planet implodes. Cool, huh?

 

Still pretty cool... pretty much more frightening, though...

[Zeropoint]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

Except that when you use this power, you go "pop" and nothing happens. When you complain, the GM tells you that the power has worked exactly as listed, and the Earth is "expended" for the purpose of being a focus for the power, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's GONE.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

How's this for overkill?

 

Goodbye, Cruel World!: subatomic charge reversal field: 3d6 Major Transform: positive matter to antimatter, One Charge, never recovers (-4), No Range (-1/2)

 

45 active points, 8 real points, big honkin' crater. Well, unless you're floating in hard vacuum at the time it's activated, in which case it won't have any apparent effect until you come into contact with normal matter.

[Razoric]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

Strange apocalypse: Transform (Matter to Strangelet) 1d6 (15 active points), 1 charge (never recover, -4)) 3 real points

[Sean Waters]

Re: Self-destruct attacks

 

Cunning, but only if the GM reads Dutch. This should destroy th eplanet, eventually...

 

Grey goo: (Nanodeath) : Major Transform 1 point (Matter to grey goo), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Continuous (+1) (20 Active Points)

 

Unless it is stopped (presumably by some sort of EMP or other nanotech) this transforms a hex of matter to grey goo. This takes (depending on the Body of the matter) up to 40 phases, or about 10 turns (2 minutes).

 

So what?

 

Well, that time includes the time to imbue the transformed matter with the same power, so that hex then sets about transforming all the hexes around it into grey goo, which takes a further 2 minutes. Still not scary.

 

Well, after an hour we will have a puddle of grey goo 60 metres in diameter (maybe the growth rate will be even quicker depending on how the GM interprets 'sticky'), and it just keeps going.

 

I mean, it is going to take the best part of 24 years to eat the whole planet, but long before then Earth will be uninhabitable.

 

OK, probably not so useful for a self destruct attack, but not bad for an apocalype scenario.