Champions Battlegrounds is great... But...

[TechnoViking]

I purchased Champions Battleground this week, and I'm most impressed with the product (especially the maps, way to go Keith). I think CB is the best-written adventure I have seen for any system in a long time.

 

I do think DOJ made one big mistake. Not including the stats for all the villains in the book is a bad idea. I think some people will not pick this great book since they will need both Champions Universe and CKC to have the needed information on the different villains. I think WoTC still includes stats for all the monster in an adventure, even if they are already listed in the Monster Manual.

 

I think making a free download of the villains (just the stats. no background info) in CB would be a good idea (sort of a villains sampler pack). If that is not financially feasible, make it Hero Plus PDF and sell it for a reasonable price.

 

I understand this may be not be really feasible, but I think it is a good idea.

 

Mike

[keithcurtis]

Thanks for the kudos, Mike!

 

As for the characters, there is a disclaimer on the back saying that it requires characters from CU and CKC. I can understand why DoJ would be loathe to reprint the characters. For every person who finds this info useful, there is someone else who finds it a waste of space (and money they spent on the book). Perhaps a quick paragraph detailing the basics of the villain ("strong energy projector with an indirect blast and a hatred of female supers"). People can then drop in an existing villain from their own campaign or make up one on the spot. Besides, if you're running the adventure without the other books, you aren't going to need a lot of background or fully-fleshed characters.

 

My guess is that if someone is running this in the Champions Universe, they will already own the referenced product. It's pretty hard to run a CU campaign without either CU or CKC. If they're running their own universe, they will probably want to use their existing characters.

 

It's a tough decision to make, and DoJ is questioned on it with almost every supplement. I don't think it will ever be soluble to everyone's satisfaction, though.

 

Keith "Thanks again about the maps, though :)" Curtis

[TechnoViking]

I like your idea of the small description paragraph to help find villians to fit, if you don't use CU villians.

 

My reason for bring up this point with CB is that adventures are a hard sell, so it probably needs to be more self-contained than other type supplements.

 

Mike

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

For every person who finds this info useful, there is someone else who finds it a waste of space (and money they spent on the book). Perhaps a quick paragraph detailing the basics of the villain ("strong energy projector with an indirect blast and a hatred of female supers").

 

I like that approach, and I'm pretty sure I've seen it in historical products. I fall squarely in the camp that says "If I wanted the villains' writeup, I'd buy the book it was published in."

 

Given the quick description i not in CB, perhaps this might be provided on the site as an errata?

[Trebuchet]

You can always purchase and download the character files from CU for HERO DESIGNER. That's what I did, and I don't have CU at all.

[hybris]

Re: Champions Battlegrounds is great... But...

 

Originally posted by Mike Basinger

I think WoTC still includes stats for all the monster in an adventure, even if they are already listed in the Monster Manual.

Hm. At least in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, they didn't.

[TechnoViking]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

You can always purchase and download the character files from CU for HERO DESIGNER. That's what I did, and I don't have CU at all.

I do have CU and CKC, I just thinking about new players who may not have a complete Hero collection.

 

Mike

[Guest zarglif69]

Originally posted by Mike Basinger

I do have CU and CKC, I just thinking about new players who may not have a complete Hero collection.

 

Mike

well why the frig would you be buyi'n CB without the other Champs products? as Keith said, they DO have a disclaimer that you need those products. RPG'in is not a poor man's hobby.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zarglif69

well why the frig would you be buyi'n CB without the other Champs products? as Keith said, they DO have a disclaimer that you need those products. RPG'in is not a poor man's hobby.

 

But the posters are right - Hero is cutting down the potential sales. And I buy supers scenarios from other games just to swipe plotmines and interesting characters. If I have an idea what they can do, they're easy to write up.

 

The Destroyers (from early V & V) are recurring foes IMC, and Dr. Apocalypse is more feared than Dr. Destroyer.

[Starcorp Man]

Anything done that limits a products to others is a bad move. You should never have to have every book to use an adventure or book, it's what hurt TSR big time and why WoTC reprints a lot of stuff in each book.

[Nato]

Yeah, that would be the only criticism I would have of this book, is the fact that almost every character used in the adventure is published somewhere else, and not printed in this book. I know one of the frustrations I had with many previously published adventures was that they would reference other books. Yes, you can always substitute characters, but one of the main reason I buy published adventures is that all the work is done for me. Perhaps in the future, adventure books can have just the stats for the characters. Leave out all the background info, and anything else not absolutely needed.

[Blue]

This is something I raised in play-test. Steve said (and I'm paraphrasing) "It's not unreasonable for us to refer to previously published materials."

 

Personally, I'm just kinda pleased to see my only contribution to the book is included... the tiny little sidebar in the first scenario about both the bricks being vulnerable to mental attacks (My testgroup had 3 characters with some sort of mental powers). So the bricks were easy game.

[Nato]

Yeah, it's not unreasonable, as there is just so much published continuity - you can't reprint everything. But maybe a condensed write-up of the character may make it more useful to someone who doesn't have all the books. It doesn't bother me, because I have everything I need.

[Lord Liaden]

I can see where Mike Basinger is coming from in raising this point. I would not favor reprinting the full game stats for the characters used: it's a space-consuming redundancy for people who already have the books that they're described in, and buyers who just want readymade adventures to adapt will most likely use the villains they have in stock. My suggestion would be to include a short text description of each character's m.o. and main abilities (one paragraph at the most), with a chart of combat stat notes at the back similar to the one in the HERO System Bestiary. That would give most GM's enough info to know how to run the character if they don't have him, or who to substitute from their own campaigns, without making the original villain writeup redundant.

 

(I guess maybe we should have raised this on the CB "What Do *You* Want to See" thread. Ah well, hindsight etc.)

[GreyGuardian]

RPGA (aka the fan stuff from WOTC) prohibts module authors from including stat blocks of monsters that appear in the monster manual - the only time folks can include the monsters etc is if they are a variant or levelled or changed in some way from the published material.

 

With that said - if at all possible it would be good to reference at most one other book for characters.

 

and with that said - I'll still be buying a copy and already have the other books.

[MisterD]

Is there a way to develope a combatblock character sheet. I do not need to know as a GM I do not need to know the charcter's COM. If he is supper good looking, I will see the DF or in a one paragraph description it will say he is extremely good looking.

 

So just a block of combat relative stats and powers. Skills character may use in the adventure, Disads to help roleplay and any susepts and Vulns,

 

Maybe in the back of the book a chart with combat reative stats and a list of powers/Defences/Disads that would come into effect during a game.

 

I know not all everything can be predicted, but a villians Knoledge of 101 languages are not important if all the characters in an adventure speak the same leanguage so no need to list all languages with level of conversation and literacy.

[BlackSword]

Originally posted by Mike Basinger

I do have CU and CKC, I just thinking about new players who may not have a complete Hero collection.

I recently picked up Champions Battlegrounds, but I have no other Champions products. I picked it up as adventure idea that could be used to either introduce friends to the genre, in which case I don't want to purchase any more until I decide I might GM a long game. Also I may use it as a plot device in another genre. Including short description of power level and abilities would be handy and might make the book more available to players who use other systems (perish the thought), but would like a good adventure.

 

I have only ready through the first adventure fully, and glanced through the rest of the book, but it looks great. I really like the write-ups for the VPPs so that its easier to get started with the NPCs who utilize VPPs.

[Fur Face]

Depends on your perspective

 

I can understand some frustration if Champions Battlegrounds was the only Champions product you purchased, only to discover that you needed CKC if you wanted all of the villians. That's why I almost always never buy anything on line, because I want to read it in my hands before deciding whether I want it or not.

 

In the end, its not like they haven't done anything different than any other game company. If they started posting pre-published characters every time they put out an adventure, their wouldn't be any reason to purchase previous supplements. That's biting off your nose despite your face.

 

I know sometimes other companies, like WotC, would put out basic stats. But unless you had a previous manuel, you really couldn't do the villian/monster justice because you didn't have a complete write up. In the end it was your interpretation of those stats. I always thought "Gee, thanks a lot".

 

I am actually glad they used CKC villians, because you get to see them used in different scenarios, and that expands the possibilities/flavors. Some of the villian pairings I would not have thought of, but they did and explained why. They also explained how you could substitute different villians.

 

If things do work out and they do start publishing more adventures, we could ask that they have at least some of them with all original villians, stand alone. At that point you can bet your bottom dollar someone will say "I bought all these supplements, why aren't you using some of them in your scenarios? Kind of a no-win situation for DOJ, but a win-win for us, because they are putting out material we can all use, even if we have to tinker it to match existing campaigns.

 

IMHO, of course.

[Mastermind]

In the back of the book, they have basic combat stats for all the villians with notes on Combat Sheets.

 

I could see that while not detailed, a GM could use these basics to design villians with powers that matched or gave a challenge to their PCs.

[Nato]

Good points.

[Agent X]

I like original characters in adventures.

[Hugh Neilson]

I like original characters if there's a need for them, but why clutter up the landscape? If you need an energy projector, there's lots already out there, so give us a name from an existing product, and an idea of his abilities that are central to his purpose in the adventure so those who prefer to use, choose or design their own can do so.

 

If I can get 12 pages more adventure because you use some pre-existing villains not central to the story, I'm happy.

[Agent X]

I like original characters in adventures.

[Korvar]

Of course then you get people complaining that you need to buy every fiddly little adventure book to get hold of these characters for your game...

 

Plus, Hero is currently trying to re-establish Champions, and the Champions Universe. Creating all-new characters for the first adventure of the rebirth would be counter-productive. It is possible that later adventures (assuming Battlegrounds sells well enough for there to be later adventures) will have new NPCs and Villains in them.

 

[Crimson Arrow]

I think Korvar's got it absolutely right. Focus on the core now and expand it later.

 

However, I do like seeing interesting new characters, especially ones with unusual powers which you could adapt for your own characters. One of the problems previous editions of Champions had sometimes was boring, weak, poorly-conceived, badly executed, or downright wrong/illegal characters which are no help to anyone.

 

While I haven't read it through, "Champions Battlegrounds" looks great. I especially like the Black Harlequin bit (but then I always liked Arcade).