Vulcan Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... That is RIDICULOUS. 112 AP. Each (there were two of them). Yeah, that's pretty over-the-top. I won't say it's bad GMing because I don't know the whole story (like what the campaign averages are, and whether this villian was supposed to be an 'epic' villian, or what-all) but it does make me wonder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... It all depends on the tone, level and style of game. I reserve judgment in such situations unless the Player indicates the GM was simply pulling out the "I must win" card... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... It all depends on the tone' date=' level and style of game. I reserve judgment in such situations unless the Player indicates the GM was simply pulling out the "I must win" card...[/quote'] Like I said, it makes me wonder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... Yeah' date=' AF and Penetrating can be absolutely [i']devastating.[/i] I'm pretty sure I wouldn't allow it as a GM - much less use it... I will say that, as a player, if something like that happens in game - that is, the villians take the gloves 'all the way off' - my heroes will up the ante as well. Beating each other up, captures, even deathtraps are just part of the superhero genre and is to be expected. Killing someone in combat, especially with such lethal attacks, means that this is no longer a superhero story, this is a WAR story. Quoted for truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... 112 AP. Each (there were two of them). Yeah' date=' that's pretty over-the-top. I won't say it's bad GMing because I don't know the whole story (like what the campaign averages are, and whether this villian was supposed to be an 'epic' villian, or what-all) but it [i']does[/i] make me wonder... Well, by the Focus rules, the second one only cost 5 points... but it's the first one that's the killer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted May 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... Yeah' date=' AF and Penetrating can be absolutely [i']devastating.[/i] I'm pretty sure I wouldn't allow it as a GM - much less use it... I will say that, as a player, if something like that happens in game - that is, the villians take the gloves 'all the way off' - my heroes will up the ante as well. Beating each other up, captures, even deathtraps are just part of the superhero genre and is to be expected. Killing someone in combat, especially with such lethal attacks, means that this is no longer a superhero story, this is a WAR story. Well, to be fair, the GM wasn't expecting me to have taken Hardened vs AP rather than Hardened vs Penetrating. It really hadn't come up before, and since 'd always thought of it as vs AP, I didn't change it when he asked. And he rolled a critical hit so all 10 shots hit me. That wasn't part of hte plan either. Even if half the shots had hit, I probably would have been able to keep Rose in the battle--and try a lot harder to avoid getting shot again. ...and it's not like we aren't playing a pretty iron age game already. So I was disappointed when Rose got killed, but I was ready to make up a new character. Getting resurrected was an unexpected bonus. ...and when I spend my accumulated XP for Rose, you can bet I'm going to add "Hardened vs Penetrating" to her defenses. I've learned my lesson! ...and yeah, this guy was an epic bad guy. I have no complaints about the power level of the opposition. Mostly it was a learning experience for me. I could have put my Hardened vs Penetrating, but I hadn't thought about it before then. (In retrospect I realized that, yeah, if I'd done that, Rose could have laughed at him. Even vs 1/2 her rPD none of his shots could have hurt her in the least. ...and if she'd attacked _him_ instead of his team mate when she got active again, she could have taken him out. Or she could have escaped the battlefield by flying away. But she's Impulsive & Brash, so her first thought was to attack the mentalist who'd just Ego Drained everyone. Took her out too. And then got shot in the back. (To make it worse, she'd ignored the mage, who warned her to stay close--so she didn't get teleported away to safety with the mage and her team mates. On the other hand, she certainly earned the XP for playing her disad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... Well' date=' to be fair, the GM wasn't expecting me to have taken Hardened vs AP rather than Hardened vs Penetrating.[/quote'] The GM is supposed to know the abilities of the PCs so he can generate appropriate challenges. This is why I hold the character sheets for the PCs in my games, so I can look at them and go 'well, this attack would splatter him across the countryside ... won't use it on him'. I'm not going to say it was a GM going 'I'm going to kill you', but IMNSHO, it certainly qualifies as bad GMing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... That +5 points for an additional focus rule? I really should have thought of putting up that it needs to go. The higher powered the campaign, the more broken that becomes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... The GM is supposed to know the abilities of the PCs so he can generate appropriate challenges. This is why I hold the character sheets for the PCs in my games, so I can look at them and go 'well, this attack would splatter him across the countryside ... won't use it on him'. I'm not going to say it was a GM going 'I'm going to kill you', but IMNSHO, it certainly qualifies as bad GMing. To be fair, it doesn't really get marked down on the character sheet... it only ever comes up if you have 1 Level Hardened vs AP + Penetrating. Then you have to know which one comes "first." It's entirely possible the GM simply forgot that the Character chose AP when presented with both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... Well' date=' by the Focus rules, the second one only cost 5 points... but it's the first one that's the killer...[/quote'] If you get the second one for 5 points, as a GM I am going to say you CANNOT MPA with it. 'Official rules' or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... If you get the second one for 5 points' date=' as a GM I am going to say you CANNOT MPA with it. 'Official rules' or not.[/quote'] At minimum, I'd say that you need the appropriate skills/talents (Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc.) in order to useboth. But, as stated upthread, 5 points for a second focus, even if those skills/talents are also required, sometimes comes to too much for too cheap at higher power levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... Sinanju, sounds like everything worked out very, very well! Rose learned the extent of her powers. She has a great mortal enemy to be on the watch for -- changing the way she does things. She has a very interesting new special friend who challenges "hero" and "villain" labels. Yeah, I'd say this encounter opened up vast new territories to explore. A real blessing in disguise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... If you get the second one for 5 points, as a GM I am going to say you CANNOT MPA with it. 'Official rules' or not. I'd agree. Pull out the spare when someone takes the first one? Sure. Use them both at once "for massive damage"? Nope, you'll have to pay full price for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... I'd agree. Pull out the spare when someone takes the first one? Sure. Use them both at once "for massive damage"? Nope' date=' you'll have to pay full price for that.[/quote'] To play Devil's Advocate for a moment... A second Focus is a separate attack, which applies against defenses separately, so two like Foci don't overwhelm otherwise solid defenses. In the OPs case, the base attack was so overwhelming, not counting the AF, that it got through the PCs defenses. In that case, the second focus was simply adding insult to injury. Had the PCs defenses been sufficient relative to the attack such that no BODY got through, it would have been a less-egregious situation. So it is a combination of an overwhelming base attack and a second focus that makes this a bad case. Of course, as an NPC villain, the cost of the second focus is a moot point anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... To play Devil's Advocate for a moment... A second Focus is a separate attack, which applies against defenses separately, so two like Foci don't overwhelm otherwise solid defenses. Agreed. It's no worse than using the snap shot maneuver to fire twice with the same attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... I'm not going to say it was a GM going 'I'm going to kill you'' date=' but IMNSHO, it certainly qualifies as bad GMing.[/quote'] I disagree with you on this for the following reasons: 1) It's clear that Sinanju had a good time in this combat and enjoyed roleplaying element of the defeat. 2) The GM rolled a critical success. Sometimes it's good to overide the dice, but at other times, you gotta let your players know that the risk of failure exists, otherwise you're just spoonfeeding the players. 3) The GM arranged to have the character resurrected by an antagonist. This role-playing challenge is far better than a "routine" combat challenge. Once again, it's pretty clear that Sinanju is enjoying it, and since Sinanju's character rarely gets challenged in combat, I think the GM has found an interesting way to challenge the character role-playing wise. All in all, I think the GM took a potentially bad situation and spun it into gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... I disagree with you on this for the following reasons: 1) It's clear that Sinanju had a good time in this combat and enjoyed roleplaying element of the defeat. 2) The GM rolled a critical success. Sometimes it's good to overide the dice, but at other times, you gotta let your players know that the risk of failure exists, otherwise you're just spoonfeeding the players. 3) The GM arranged to have the character resurrected by an antagonist. This role-playing challenge is far better than a "routine" combat challenge. Once again, it's pretty clear that Sinanju is enjoying it, and since Sinanju's character rarely gets challenged in combat, I think the GM has found an interesting way to challenge the character role-playing wise. All in all, I think the GM took a potentially bad situation and spun it into gold. Yep. I had no complaints about the events of last night's game, and wouldn't have even if Rose had stayed dead. It was a confluence of events that led to the scenario playing out the way it had: * My choice to harden Rose's defenses against AP instead of Penetrating--definitely a tactical error on my part. * The GM rolling a 3 on his to hit roll. Again, if she hadn't been hit by all ten shots, she'd probably have been badly hurt--but not taken out instantly--and been able to be more careful going forward. * Rose's choice of actions when she did get up and start fighting again. She could have escaped. She could have attacked Pistol Guy. She didn't. It's also true that mostly Rose never gets hurt in combat. She hardly ever even takes Stun damage. On the other hand, she was a poor little (formerly) rich girl with no useful skills and no combat skills of any sort at the beginning. She's learned some moves since, but she isn't nearly as effective a combatant as she could be with more skills--so it evens out. Given her Psychs (Overconfident, and Brash & Impulsive), this sort of thing was inevitable. And I'm okay with that. Just like I always do my best with my PC when he/she is mind controlled, I've been playing up her psychs--taking bold but often ill-considered actions even when I know it's a bad idea. Do that often enough and eventually the odds are gonna catch up with you. So, yeah, it was a surprise when she got taken down so easily--but not a complete surprise. And if there's no risk, there's no thrill of victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... I disagree with you on this for the following reasons: 1) It's clear that Sinanju had a good time in this combat and enjoyed roleplaying element of the defeat. 2) The GM rolled a critical success. Sometimes it's good to overide the dice, but at other times, you gotta let your players know that the risk of failure exists, otherwise you're just spoonfeeding the players. 3) The GM arranged to have the character resurrected by an antagonist. This role-playing challenge is far better than a "routine" combat challenge. Once again, it's pretty clear that Sinanju is enjoying it, and since Sinanju's character rarely gets challenged in combat, I think the GM has found an interesting way to challenge the character role-playing wise. All in all, I think the GM took a potentially bad situation and spun it into gold. I agree, if I start baysitting the characters too far it takes away all the sense of acoplishment, and the heroism. Without risk, noboby is a "hero". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... My question is the GM the same guy who you killed the character of when mind controlled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... I'd agree. Pull out the spare when someone takes the first one? Sure. Use them both at once "for massive damage"? Nope' date=' you'll have to pay full price for that.[/quote'] Eh ... in this case, it's pretty irrelevant. It was a NPC, it's not like it operated on a points budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... I agree' date=' if I start baysitting the characters too far it takes away all the sense of acoplishment, and the heroism. Without risk, noboby is a "hero".[/quote'] There's a very, very thick line between 'no risk' and 'not killing PCs'. PCs can be defeated without killing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 23, 2009 Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... There's a very' date=' very thick line between 'no risk' and 'not killing PCs'. PCs can be defeated without killing them.[/quote'] That doesn't mean death should never be an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted May 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... My question is the GM the same guy who you killed the character of when mind controlled? Heh. No, that was Ben. He ran the game for a few sessions, then someone else took over and he eventually dropped out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... That doesn't mean death should never be an option. No, but the question I have is this: the dead character was a brick, if I understand correctly. What would have happened to the less robust characters if that had happened to them? I would guess instant splat. That tells me that perhaps that attack was wee bit overpowered... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Re: I killed a fellow PC last night... It very well may have been over-powered. On the other hand, the events that lead to the death included a critical hit, poor defensive actions on the part of the PC, and the character still had to get hit again to be finished off. When a player gets particularly lucky with the dice it’s all good, even when it totally demolishes the GM’s plans. When a GM gets lucky with the dice it makes them a bad GM. I don’t like that. Sometimes even experienced GMs miscalculate or make boneheaded mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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