I killed a fellow PC last night...

[sinanju]

I've been playing in a weekly face-to-face Champions game for a few months now. First one in years. The campaign ended this week with a double (two night) wrap up, since the GM is traveling to China for an indeterminate period for work. He wanted to wrap up the adventure we were having before he left.

 

So we confronted the Big Bad Boss Monster, a vampire who was stronger than any of us, faster than any of us, and had vast mental powers.

 

I was playing the Black Knight. He's based on the Kurgan from the original Highlander film. He regenerates like an SOB (I have 20 points of rPD and rED armor to represent the fact that any wound smaller than that heals so fast that it effectively doesn't even slow him down. Plus some Damage Reduction (even larger wounds heal really, really fast), and Regeneration. STR 50 and a huge sword for lots of HTH KA damage.

 

In short, he's a combat monster who's very, very hard to stop.

 

Did I mention that he's got 2x Effect from Mind Control attacks as a disadvantage? And that the vampire had Mind Control? Yeah.

 

First thing the bad guy did was an area effect Mind Control command "Kill yourselves!" I was the only one who succumbed and I impaled myself on my own sword, to little effect.

 

So the vampire's second command--to me--was "Kill your friends."

 

The Black Knight ripped the sword out of his own torso and immediately attacked the nearest player character. As Steamteck could tell you based on the years I played in his campaign, I have a policy regarding my characters being mind controlled. And that policy is: do your damnedest to carry out your orders.

 

If my PC is under someone else's mental influence, I don't dither, or try to be deliberately ineffective. I fight just as hard and just as enthusiastically as I do when I'm in my right mind.

 

Alas for Ben, his character was closest. And he had virtually no resistant defenses. I sliced him nearly in half in one shot, and on my next action kicked his bleeding (but not quite dead yet) body into the next nearest PC. Which killed Ben's character and knocked the other character out.

 

Another player managed to disarm me and knock me down with martial arts at that point. (He was savvy enough to know he couldn't rally hurt me, but he could keep me out of action.) And before I could do anything else, the rest of the group managed to take out the vampire. But Ben's character was dead as disco.

 

So next week we start a new game. Ben's the GM. Gee, I hope he doesn't hold a grudge.

 

I have to say, though, that that was the most fun I've had gaming in a long, long time. Most of my gaming for the last three years has been online. Which is fun, don't get me wrong, but it's not the same. Sitting around the table, rolling dice, and making wisecracks and riffing on one another's jokes--it was loads of fun. I laughed more (and frequently harder) than I have in a long time.

[Cygnia]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

The GM runs a character? I'd consider that necessary NPC weeding...

[sinanju]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

The GM runs a character? I'd consider that necessary NPC weeding...

 

He wasn't the GM. He's starting a game next week now that the former GM is leaving.

[Blue]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I've often noticed that the games where I have the most fun have been the ones where I may have been less than effective, and even ones where my character died. Although there are exceptions (I have one GM who views characters as something you just resurrect later, which is not how my characters often see it, as I turn the rez down to his shock).

 

I think my GMs are often surprised at which games I get a kick out of, because it never seems to be the sessions they were expecting.

[Shaft]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

The most dangerous thing to a PC is another PC. An NPC can be restrained. When a fellow PC has it in for you, there is nothing holding them back.

 

The title to this thread sounds like a Johnny Cash song:

 

"I killed a player character... just to watch him die.

When he GMs the next game, I think I'll roll up a new guy..."

[Roth]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

Ouch, cleaved almost in twain by your own party member. Gotta suck for Ben.

 

Sounds like a fun campaign all around.

[薔薇語]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

That is just his way of saying, "Hello!" But remind him that you were just doing him a favor. If his character wasn't dead, then he would be reminiscing on playing him rather than running the game. All you did was aid him in having a clear mind to focus on GMing. I for one say "thank you sinanju." He should too.

 

La Rose

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I commend you for playing a Mind Controlled character right. I've more or less stopped using the power as a GM for players trying to weasel their way out of it with excessive literalism in interpretting commands and generally monkeyf***ing around.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

Ah, Sinanju. I always appreciated that. That's how mind control should work.I also remember you seem to get really lucky when you're mind controlled.

One time when mind controlled he was fighting my wife's vindictive character who was really much tougher than him in a straight fight and he had little chance to hit her and she was going easy on him. That all ended when he put a thrown knife in her side but didn't take her out. The rest of the fight was "to the pain"

[sinanju]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

Ah, Sinanju. I always appreciated that. That's how mind control should work.I also remember you seem to get really lucky when you're mind controlled.

One time when mind controlled he was fighting my wife's vindictive character who was really much tougher than him in a straight fight and he had little chance to hit her and she was going easy on him. That all ended when he put a thrown knife in her side but didn't take her out. The rest of the fight was "to the pain"

 

Yeah...those PCs didn't work together after that. (Fortunately, we all had several PCs to mix and match for various adventures, so it wasn't a real problem.)

 

As I recall, you also had to talk Julie into not having her character hire some assassins to go after my character (which would have been totally in character for her PC, for those of you following along at home).

[Narratio]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

As I recall' date=' you also had to talk Julie into not having her character hire some assassins to go after my character (which would have been totally in character for her PC, for those of you following along at home).[/quote']That would have looked a bit odd when updating your character sheet. "DisAd: Hunted by fellow team member, 15pts, - don't bother with the die roll it's all the time, day in-day out- I was mindcontrolled! But will she listen? Haha!"

[Badger]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

Actually the whole situation seems kind of funny. (except for Ben )

 

Anyhow, I didnt realize people played "with heart" when mind controlled anymore. I've know GMs who generally if the situaton of mind control comes up just plays the character rather than the player because of past issues of halfhearted play. So it has been a while since I even came across that.

 

 

Course, I myself usually go for strong mental defense normally. But, if I get mind controlled I believe I should do it right. (Besides it might be fun to kill off my teamates since I am being controlled anyway. )

[sinanju]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

That would have looked a bit odd when updating your character sheet. "DisAd: Hunted by fellow team member' date=' 15pts, - don't bother with the die roll it's all the time, day in-day out- I was mindcontrolled! But will she listen? Haha!"[/i']

 

Hmmm. Now that I think about it, I may be conflating two separate events. There was an adventure once in Morgan Le Fey, a recurring thorn in our side, came to the PCs for help--and offering to tell us where another PC (captured previously) was being held.

 

I HATED Morgan Le Fey. I was also convinced that we could find the missing PC without her help. None of the other PCs/players agreed, so they were negotiating with her. I was locked out of the room. I blew a hole in the wall with a grenade and burst into the room with murder in my heart.

 

That's when Julie's character fought mine. I threw my knife at her at one point, intending to stun her--but neglected to make that clear to Steamteck. I did her some serious damage and she took it...badly.

 

On the other hand, there's the adventure where the Bad Guy killed my character and resurrected me as a zombie under his control. Not exactly mind control, but close enough. And again, I did my level best, when so instructed, to kill all the other player characters. I failed, but not for lack of trying!

 

Eventually they caused me to realize I was a zombie, which broke the spell. I keeled over dead. Not to worry--I got better.

[Narratio]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I'll bet that every member of your group now knows where your character is every hour of the day. As well as what it's armed with and where the nearest esacape path takes them... just in case.

[Enforcer84]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I remember the time my GM mind controlled my character. My Brick and my brother's Martial Arts Savant had been vying for the hand of the soft spoken mage of the group. I was simply ordered to remove my rival for her affection.

 

LONG fight. He couldn't do significant damage, I couldn't hit.

 

We were on the forth turn, I'd tried everything, shockwave attacks to knock him down, using large objects to throw or swing at him. Nothing seemed to work. He was far more effective at hitting me but I'd always recovered the stun at the end of the turn.

 

Finally I got a lucky shot and connected; basically shattered him. Broke bones, collapsed lung, he was dying (-2 body from the one shot) Mage managed to free Power Man from his control...and I still wanted to finish him off. It was a tense evening.

[KA.]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I don't mean to be nitpicking here, but was the command actually "Kill your friends"?

That seems like (allowing for Psych Lims) something that you would have a fairly good chance to resist.

Is "Kill your friends" something that your character would generally be likely to want to do?

Not that I don't agree with the general complaint that PC's who are Mind Controlled often try to avoid doing what they are told, but in anything other than an Iron Age campaign, it seems like there should be a way to avoid one PC killing another.

I generally see NPC mind-control on a PC, like making a deal with the Devil.

You had better make very sure of the specifics.

For example, the command given to Enforcer84's character was something that the character might be somewhat inclined to do.

 

It sounds like this was the last session of a campaign that was ending anyway, so it may not really matter.

 

But if I knew the campaign was going to go on, I might have tried to find a way out rather than kill another PC.

 

One response, if the character has not had close relationships with the other PC's, would be to go catatonic for the duration of the fight.

 

After the Vampire was defeated, the character could have a moment of angry realization "I just realized . . . I don't have any friends!"

 

It would still have taken him out of the fight, and could be a great opportunity for growth.

 

KA.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I think that sort of thing is exactly why multiple people have just said that they let other people or the GM control their PC when it’s being controlled.

 

One would assume that all Psych Lims and other factors would have been accounted for, and the mental control succeeded anyway. Even someone with a Code VS Killing at the Total level could be forced to murder someone if the Mind Control rolls beats there EGO/Mental Defense by enough. Plus, unless the character was antisocial the entire campaign, or actively disliked all the other PCs, than the whole catatonic thing would seem like a copout.

 

You may have noticed that multiple people have said they hate when players try to side step the effects of MC. IMO not role-playing the PC as being controlled is just as bad as any other form of Munchkin behavior, maybe even worse since it is meta-gaming at the most blatant and obvious level. If, as a GM, I allowed players to play out Mind Control the way you suggest, there would never be another mentalist in my campaign, because the NPCs would do the same thing and MC would be virtually useless.

[Cygnia]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I remember a not-so good game (let's just say never trust a grinning GM when he allows the HERO newbie to run the equivalent of Doctor Strange and said newbie has no idea how to work a VPP).

 

Newbie wasn't a very nice guy in real life and his character wasn't much better. ("Our brick is fighting a Fire Elemental in a narrow mine shaft? I know...I'll throw a fireball at them!") So when the brick got hit by a mind control and was told to destroy the mage's sanctum, he took to it VERY eagerly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I agree the Mind Control to kill your friends is a tough one to make stick. Presumably, despite all bonuses, it worked. Then I agree the player and character should do his level best to accomplish the task, as ordered.

 

Now, if there is some bad blood between characters, then one or more PC's may not be perceived as a "friend", but especially after a campaign of significant duration, I would consider it pretty disingenuous of the player to argue that teammates he's faced life and death situations with, repeatedly, are "not my friends". And, if they aren't, I wouldn't expect any whining if, later, the command of "Kill your teammates" were assessed as not all that difficult - after all, they're not your friends!

 

To me, the bigger issue is high power killing attacks against a target with minimal resistant defenses. How has the target avoided being killed in the past? I would certainly, as GM, have allowed some "abort to defend my teammate" actions by other PC's, just as I would have allowed them in any other situation where the character's life was in jeopardy.

 

However:

 

- as GM, I would expect the Mind Controlled character to be played with his best efforts to carry out the command.

 

- as a player, I would play out the command (if I'm MC'd) and I would not take offense at the result (if I'm targeted by the MC'd PC).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I remember a not-so good game (let's just say never trust a grinning GM when he allows the HERO newbie to run the equivalent of Doctor Strange and said newbie has no idea how to work a VPP).

 

Newbie wasn't a very nice guy in real life and his character wasn't much better. ("Our brick is fighting a Fire Elemental in a narrow mine shaft? I know...I'll throw a fireball at them!") So when the brick got hit by a mind control and was told to destroy the mage's sanctum, he took to it VERY eagerly.

 

I remember running a Berserker character in a D&D game. I diligently tracked the character's attitude to his fellow PC's, as some of them did have personality clashes at times. Eventually, one of them fell to the point of being subconsciously perceived as an "enemy". He wouldn't act against that PC outside of his berserker rage ("enemy" being offset by "teammate"), but could no longer differentiate once in rage.

[Pariah]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

Memo to Ben's next character: Resistant Defenses are worth their weight in gold.

[KA.]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I didn't mean the "I don't have any friends!" as a cop-out. I was thinking of the PC's that will occasionally show up in a game that are such "loners" that they never really bond with any of the other PCs.

If just seemed like it could make for kind of a cool moment if a Wolverine type, given that type of command, would actually have to pause while the realization hit them that nobody on the team actually was their friend, because of their own actions.

 

It wasn't nearly as emotional as the above, but in one campaign we had a PC called Apathy Man. He obviously didn't do a lot, but he was also very hard to damage, because things like pain meant nothing to him.

On one occasion we encountered an evil sorcerer based on Elric, who had a soul-stealing sword.

At which point the question came up "Does Apathy Man have a soul to steal?"

 

Anyway, again, I was not looking for a cop out, just a simulation of what I usually see in all but Iron Age comics, Mind Control does not actually end up in a character dying. They get badly wounded, knocked out, etc. but they don't usually actually die.

Of course player's have control over their own character's, but I would not want to cause PC on PC homicide in a campaign I was running.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

KA.

[hfergus]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I just had one time where a pc (mine) was mind controlled to kill another pc. Rolled horribly on all counts for 4 rounds -3 no hits & one no damage past defenses. Also failed all breakout rolls. Finally made the breakout roll. The mind control was not at the "thinks it was their idea/doesn't remember doing it" level. Four extremely good rolls later, the controller was "fully controlled" - ie: dead. Really ticked him off. Normally calm, non-killer, but in effect went enraged- pushing all attacks.

 

Most players I have had in the past I have no problem with them playing it right. Some prefer I do it though (just one, actually)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

I didn't mean the "I don't have any friends!" as a cop-out. I was thinking of the PC's that will occasionally show up in a game that are such "loners" that they never really bond with any of the other PCs.

If just seemed like it could make for kind of a cool moment if a Wolverine type, given that type of command, would actually have to pause while the realization hit them that nobody on the team actually was their friend, because of their own actions.

 

I could see this as appropriate with the right character, but it's clearly dependent on the history within the group and the character's own personality.

 

Anyway, again, I was not looking for a cop out, just a simulation of what I usually see in all but Iron Age comics, Mind Control does not actually end up in a character dying. They get badly wounded, knocked out, etc. but they don't usually actually die.

Of course player's have control over their own character's, but I would not want to cause PC on PC homicide in a campaign I was running.

 

I think that issue begins at the GM. In a game where Mind Control is not intended to result in PC death, I think a command other than "Kill your friends" would seem appropriate. Once the command is in play, and the character affected, I think the player needs to play it out appropriately.

[lemming]

Re: I killed a fellow PC last night...

 

The most player vs. player action I saw in a campaign was in a Viking game.

 

Though most of the time it was just fisticuffs, though one time it was me and Sam Bell's duking it out at a dinner for Harald Bluetooth.

 

Years later (character and real life), we had continued the campaign in Valhalla and there was some magic item that each of us wanted. One of the us, Sven, said we should duel it out and he decided, no armor. Now each of us by this time had some magic swords and could deal out a 5d6 HKA. Quick fight each time. I won basically that I had the best DCV and got lucky.

 

Later on, I remember Eric (Sam's) and mine fighting over who got to charge the giant's castle first. While we were fighting it out, Sven charged the castle.