Lose Weakness

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

Well no, the FAQ says that FW doesn't work when you Multiform.

 

The rules question answer Steve just provided said that FW does work when you multiform, unless the GM rules otherwise.

 

So it went to NO to Yes, but. Not a 180 degree flip, but nearly so.

 

Remember that the "main purpose" of Multiform is to create a character who changes into completely different forms. We just happen to use it to fudge a character who has minor differences a lot these days also. That strikes ME as a good time to scrutinize the interaction between it and Find Weakness.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

Remember that the "main purpose" of Multiform is to create a character who changes into completely different forms. We just happen to use it to fudge a character who has minor differences a lot these days also. That strikes ME as a good time to scrutinize the interaction between it and Find Weakness.

 

To extend your point further, it's a good time (that being before 6th ed is published) to scrutinize the interaction between Find Weakness and the Hero System in general. (my vote is eliminate it entirely)

[Lucius]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

To extend your point further' date=' it's a good time (that being before 6th ed is published) to scrutinize the interaction between Find Weakness and the Hero System in general. (my vote is eliminate it entirely)[/quote']

 

It's not a "deal breaker" for me either way, but I could see the argument for dropping it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I found Lucius Alexander's weakness! He has a weakness for palindromedary taglines.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

To extend your point further' date=' it's a good time (that being before 6th ed is published) to scrutinize the interaction between Find Weakness and the Hero System in general. (my vote is eliminate it entirely)[/quote']

 

I disagree. Find Weakness has legitimate uses in the system. Rather than eliminate it I would say it should be a power that comes with a hefty warning to GMs.

[Lucius]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

Well no, the FAQ says that FW doesn't work when you Multiform.

 

The rules question answer Steve just provided said that FW does work when you multiform, unless the GM rules otherwise.

 

So it went to NO to Yes, but. Not a 180 degree flip, but nearly so.

 

I went back and looked at Mr. Long's answer, and I'm getting the completely opposite impression from what you're saying.

 

The question was, basically, "If someone Finds Weakness on you, and you then use Multiform to change forms, are your defenses still halved." He said "Generally, no...."

 

"Generally, no" seems to me to mean that most of the time, Find Weakness won't still work on a Multiformed character; the attacker would need to roll Find Weakness again each time the form changes, unless the person running the game rules otherwise.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary makes a 180 degree turn but no one notices

[Shoutybloke]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

Wha you want is a dispel: Find weakness, possibly on a trigger.

[Lucius]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

Wha you want is a dispel: Find weakness' date=' possibly on a trigger.[/quote']

 

The character with Find Weakness will still have Find Weakness. and it works just fine on anyone else.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Dispel Palindromedary

[Adventus]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

In Reading this post I realized what Find Weakness really is:

 

Find weakness=Cumulative Armor Piercing Requires a Skill Roll(PER).

 

You could also Buy your Adaptive defense as: Darkness vs Find Weakness, only after third attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

Wha you want is a dispel: Find weakness' date=' possibly on a trigger.[/quote']

 

The character with Find Weakness will still have Find Weakness. and it works just fine on anyone else.

 

Dispel Find Weakness would shut down the power momentarily. It seems reasonable that would "reset" the target to "no weaknesses found". Limit the Dispel that it applies only for FW against your character, and any weaknesses found on other targets would logically remain. I think Shoutybloke has the right answer. And given FW is pretty low cost, and the Dispel needs some significant limitations, this should also be pretty cost-effective.

[Lucius]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

In Reading this post I realized what Find Weakness really is:

 

Find weakness=Cumulative Armor Piercing Requires a Skill Roll(PER).

 

[/b]

 

Yes, except that even Hardened defense doesn't help. And a few other differences like, instead of a skill vs skill roll you an buy a straight -1 to someone's roll for 1 pt.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that in the very first edition of Champions, Lucius created a character with Armor Piercing Martial Arts defined as "always Finds the Weakness"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this on the appropriate 6e thread but here are some of my thoughts about Find Weakness as it currently stands.

 

 

• It is essentially "Hit Locations-Lite" for games that don't use Hit Locations.
  
• It could theoretically be replaced by either a flat cost (5-15 points?) or an Advantage (+1/4?) to allow a character to use Hit Location rules in a game that does use them by default.
  
• It does makes sense that you can mix Armor Piercing attacks with Find Weakness vs. Defenses.
  
• It does not make sense to mix Find Weakness with Hit Location Rules as they would essentially be duplicating the same special effect: targeting a spot.
  

HM

[BNakagawa]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this on the appropriate 6e thread but here are some of my thoughts about Find Weakness as it currently stands.

 

 

• It is essentially "Hit Locations-Lite" for games that don't use Hit Locations.
  
• It could theoretically be replaced by either a flat cost (5-15 points?) or an Advantage (+1/4?) to allow a character to use Hit Location rules in a game that does use them by default.
  
• It does makes sense that you can mix Armor Piercing attacks with Find Weakness vs. Defenses.
  
• It does not make sense to mix Find Weakness with Hit Location Rules as they would essentially be duplicating the same special effect: targeting a spot.
  

HM

 

Eh, not really. You can use FW with an area effect attack and it still works. You could use FW on a target who doesn't have a discernable anatomy and it still works. You could use FW on an invisible target and it still works. You could use FW on a target who was under cover with only his pinky showing and it still works. You could use FW on a target, attack somebody else and if the FW target dives for cover in front of the other person, it still works. You could place a land mine in a hex two days before the fight, use FW on somebody and when they step on that hex, the FW works.

 

None of that sounds anything like hit locations.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

I went back and looked at Mr. Long's answer, and I'm getting the completely opposite impression from what you're saying.

 

The question was, basically, "If someone Finds Weakness on you, and you then use Multiform to change forms, are your defenses still halved." He said "Generally, no...."

 

"Generally, no" seems to me to mean that most of the time, Find Weakness won't still work on a Multiformed character; the attacker would need to roll Find Weakness again each time the form changes, unless the person running the game rules otherwise.

 

Yes, you are correct. I was confused because the earlier FAQ entry was worded differently. The answer has gone from a hard NO, to a No, but...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

Eh, not really. You can use FW with an area effect attack and it still works. You could use FW on a target who doesn't have a discernable anatomy and it still works. You could use FW on an invisible target and it still works. You could use FW on a target who was under cover with only his pinky showing and it still works. You could use FW on a target, attack somebody else and if the FW target dives for cover in front of the other person, it still works. You could place a land mine in a hex two days before the fight, use FW on somebody and when they step on that hex, the FW works.

 

None of that sounds anything like hit locations.

 

I was stating my opinion about FW, not an interpretation of RAW.

 

All of your examples would get questions on the reasoning of the sfx from most GM's.

 

No discernable anatomy sounds like a good sfx reason to buy Lack of Weakness for the character (Alternatively, in a game using Hit Locations, Shapeshift can be used to change the locations or a GM might allow the No Hit Location Autotatom ability to be used).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

Dispel Find Weakness would shut down the power momentarily. It seems reasonable that would "reset" the target to "no weaknesses found". Limit the Dispel that it applies only for FW against your character' date=' and any weaknesses found on other targets would logically remain. I think Shoutybloke has the right answer. And given FW is pretty low cost, and the Dispel needs some significant limitations, this should also be pretty cost-effective.[/quote']

 

Hmm. I don't know about that. FW is Persistant and its (default, of course) target is "Self Only". There aren't multiple "instances" of its use, one against each target. In fact, those properties means it isn't even really "used against" targets at all. It's like it gives the attacker a unique super skill or something.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

As a counter example if I have the power Entangle and I use it on a target and then you dispel my power of Entangle, the target does not automatically get out of the entangle, right?

 

It isn't clear whether FW affects you, giving you the ability to add a 'naked power advantage-like structure to your attack(s) or whether FW affects the target, giving their defenses a flaw only exploitable by your attack(s).

 

If it is the former, then perhaps a dispel would work. If it is the latter, then it won't. You can't throw a dispel EB on somebody who just got shot with a blaster and make the stun damage go away...

[TheInexplicable]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

I'm pretty sure it was covered somewhere in the FAQ or in a post by Steve that you can't buy invisibility to Find Weakness even though FW is a sensory power. The reasoning being that it falls into the "don't use powers to mimic other existing powers" rule. As in, since there is already Lack of Weakness you can't use Invisibility to FW as it is along the lines of using STR with the range advantage rather than Telekinesis.

 

I might build the ability to "cancel" a successful Find Weakness like what you want just as limited Lack of Weakness:

 

Lack of Weakness: Normal Defenses, 15pts, Conditional: Adaptive defense -1/2, RC:10

Lack of Weakness: Resistant Defenses, 15pts, Conditional: Adaptive defense -1/2, RC:10

 

With the Conditional limitation meaning that if they would have succeeded in their FW roll not taking the -15 into account then they get the defense halving for X number of attacks. The limitation value would need to scale based on what number X is and you would need to purchase for Power/Mental/Flash defenses also if you have those...which I assume a character based on super adaptive defenses would. Also, obviously if they make their FW roll even with the -15 they have found a weakness that you can't adapt out of quick enough for it to matter for the combat.

 

This doesn't exactly do what you are looking for as it does still mean that most of the time they will have "failed" their initial FW roll and would not be able to attempt again during the same encounter. If you want them to be able to be given the opportunity to make another FW attempt after you have adapted to spot a new weakness...I guess the only way I can think to do that is to have a bunch of identical Multiforms specifically to "adapt" and cancel one FW while allowing a new one. Normally if the Multiforms are near identical like that the FW would carry over, but if that is the specific reason the Multiform is being purchased then as a GM I would be fine with it. It would be an awful lot of points to spend just to have that capability after all.

 

-The Inexplicable

[pinecone]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

I already asked Mr. Long but I know he's kind of laid up now, and besides, I wanted all your opinions too....

 

Context: I'm designing a character with "Adaptive Defenses." For example, I'm planning to have Damage Reduction that only applies the THIRD or later time a given attack is used in a given combat.

 

Among other things, I want to use Change Environment, with the Self Only limitation, to impose a -1 Find Weakness penalty and force any attacker with Find Weakness to roll it again every phase. In other words I don't want Lack of Weakness (heck, the only reason I'm taking the -1 is because it's free with Change Environment) but I want any Weakness Found with the power to only last for a phase, or perhaps just long enough to make one attack. Then the character "adapts" and a new Weakness must be Found.

 

Just two issues give me pause with this:

 

a. Change Environment can force a Perception, Characteristic or Skill roll, but Find Weakness is technically a Power not a Skill isn't it?

 

b. It seems a powerful effect for the points, although it also strikes me that forcing characters to make a DEX roll to remain standing on ice or a STR roll to move in a gravity field is a powerful effect too.

 

So -

 

1. is this the legal way to get the effect I want? And if not,

2. what IS the right way to force an attacker with Find Weakness to re-roll the Find Weakness for every attack?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to buy Find Strength

 

I'd also recomend looking at absorb 1D6 all energy, all physical> Lack of weak, you continue to be Weak till you accrue enough lack of weak to cancell the roll. Me I'd let the Finder attempt a new roll at their option, but with the newly gained def....not likely....

[mattingly]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

I think a 1d6 Flash vs Find Weakness would clear it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

I already asked Mr. Long but I know he's kind of laid up now' date=' and besides, I wanted all your opinions too....[/font']

Context: I'm designing a character with "Adaptive Defenses." For example, I'm planning to have Damage Reduction that only applies the THIRD or later time a given attack is used in a given combat.

Among other things, I want to use Change Environment, with the Self Only limitation, to impose a -1 Find Weakness penalty and force any attacker with Find Weakness to roll it again every phase. In other words I don't want Lack of Weakness (heck, the only reason I'm taking the -1 is because it's free with Change Environment) but I want any Weakness Found with the power to only last for a phase, or perhaps just long enough to make one attack. Then the character "adapts" and a new Weakness must be Found.

Just two issues give me pause with this:

a. Change Environment can force a Perception, Characteristic or Skill roll, but Find Weakness is technically a Power not a Skill isn't it?

b. It seems a powerful effect for the points, although it also strikes me that forcing characters to make a DEX roll to remain standing on ice or a STR roll to move in a gravity field is a powerful effect too.

So -

1. is this the legal way to get the effect I want? And if not,

2. what IS the right way to force an attacker with Find Weakness to re-roll the Find Weakness for every attack?

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wants to buy Find Strength

Isn't Find Weakness stackable by default? Wouldn't forcing them to re-roll Find Weakness to have the same bonus as they did the first time they use it effectively prevent them from ever stacking the ability? If so, the Lose Weakness you are trying to build seems a little more powerful than I first thought (at least if find weakness is common in your games), since it stops your defenses from being reduced to 1/4 or even 1/8. Perhaps you should buy Lack of Weakness with a number of Limitations. Maybe custom adders to represent "only after Find Weakness has been successfully used once" and "Allows for a new Find Weakness Roll after initial attack". I don't know, just a thought.

[Blackberry]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

How about this:

 

Absorption, any attack where Find Weakness was used, absorbed points go into...

Suppress Find Weakness, ranged, continuous, uncontrolled, sticky.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

How about this:

 

Absorption, any attack where Find Weakness was used, absorbed points go into...

Suppress Find Weakness, ranged, continuous, uncontrolled, sticky.

 

Get's a little expensive for what it does.

 

 

45 Ouch!: Absorption 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points) (physical, Stop That!), Can Absorb Maximum Of 30 Points' Worth Of Physical Damage, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4), Varying Effect (Can be changed to affect Energy instead of Phsyical damage; +3/4) (45 Active Points)

 

20 Stop That!: Suppress Find Weakness 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Whenever Affected By Find Weakness; +1), Continuous ([suppress is already Ranged & Continuous by Default] Adding Continuous again means that additional effect rolls occur on each subsequent Phase.; +1) (20 Active Points)

[pinecone]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

Get's a little expensive for what it does.

 

 

45 Ouch!: Absorption 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points) (physical, Stop That!), Can Absorb Maximum Of 30 Points' Worth Of Physical Damage, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4), Varying Effect (Can be changed to affect Energy instead of Phsyical damage; +3/4) (45 Active Points)

 

20 Stop That!: Suppress Find Weakness 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Whenever Affected By Find Weakness; +1), Continuous ([suppress is already Ranged & Continuous by Default] Adding Continuous again means that additional effect rolls occur on each subsequent Phase.; +1) (20 Active Points)

 

yeah, that is pricey, but toss it into a EC and it's a little easier to take I suppose...

[Blackberry]

Re: Lose Weakness

 

yeah' date=' that is pricey, but toss it into a EC and it's a little easier to take I suppose...[/quote']

 

And it has the benefit of not needing a special ruling on Change Environment, plus it's tough for the weakness finder to overcome it except by Power Defense or running away.