Hollow Earth --Not!

[Lawnmower Boy]

I love me a good lost world/lost continent story. I was seriously bummed out when I heard that if all those African lost worlds in Tarzan were real, Africa would be bigger to the tune of an Australian sized mass of land.

It wouldn't all fit.

So when I came to run my (only) Pulp Hero campaign to date, I had a lost continent on the Kerguelen subsea plateau. Still awfully small for vast mountain ranges and the like, but it looked out of the way enough on a big National Geographic map in my grandfather's basement.

Unfortunately, it turns out that it is pretty hard to scrunch the territory out of the middle of the Perth-Capetown shipping lanes. Not very likely to be "lost" in 1922.

And hollow earths are silly. I love them even more than lost continents just because of the scope, but they are silly.

 

So what's the alternative? For various reasons, I don't really like the idea of a single door into an alternate dimension in somebody's laboratory, so I've been playing with the idea of a subspace-thingie door to another Earth that for some strange reason (gravity isometers?) only occurs at the bottom of deep caverns.

Any better ideas out there?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

Personally - if I really wanted a Lost Worlds scenario during the Pulp Era - I'd rewrite history just ever so slightly.

 

Australia has yet to be colonized by anything even remotely European - it's a little further east into the pacific too. It's just a big undiscovered land circa 1922.

 

Just 'cuz in a Gaming World we can ignore the Real World.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

I simply declare that all those underground tunnels, volcanoes, whirlpools etc. that in earlier stories appeared to lead into a vast underground world, are actually localized space warps. They either (a) lead to an alternate world/pocket dimension which is a hollow world, or has physical properties that make it resemble one; or ( shrink the physical proportions of whatever passes through them to tiny size -- hence the entire "hollow earth" would fit into a city park on the surface.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

Australia has yet to be colonized by anything even remotely European - it's a little further east into the pacific too. It's just a big undiscovered land circa 1922.

 

Oy!

 

Cannot see how that could happen in any history even vaguely like our own. Australia ending up with French, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese or Chinese settlements; instead of British; is plausible. But no foreign settlement at all - sorry, I really can't see that.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

Oy!

 

Cannot see how that could happen in any history even vaguely like our own. Australia ending up with French, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese or Chinese settlements; instead of British; is plausible. But no foreign settlement at all - sorry, I really can't see that.

 

OR... you could make it the last refuge of an antediluvian civilization, who have been capturing and enslaving any foreigners who stumble onto their land, so that word of their existence never gets out.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

OR... you could make it the last refuge of an antediluvian civilization' date=' who have been capturing and enslaving any foreigners who stumble onto their land, so that word of their existence never gets out.[/quote']

 

Stops working right about the time of the space age...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

Stops working right about the time of the space age...

 

Since we're talking about a setting for Pulp-era gaming, I'm not too concerned.

 

Besides, if they're one of those technologically-superior lost civilizations, they might have gotten into space first. It might retard space exploitation by the rest of the world considerably, if every vehicle launched is lost under mysterious circumstances...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

Oy!

 

Cannot see how that could happen in any history even vaguely like our own. Australia ending up with French, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese or Chinese settlements; instead of British; is plausible. But no foreign settlement at all - sorry, I really can't see that.

 

Ok, it was colonized. But the colonies never got far inland, and the Great War was much larger than anticipated, the colonies are "effectively" lost - they're out there but the home governments really don't have the resources to spare for a bunch of people on a big island way out there.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

Stops working right about the time of the space age...

 

Which usually, but not always, comes after the 1920s. Wouldn't work too well for Victorian SF a la Space:1889, but as long as you rule that out...

 

The antediluvian civilization is probably the best scenario, especially if their technology is advanced enough that pre-19th century explorers don't have the weaponry to resist being captured, but early 20th century tech, wielded by two-fisted adventurers and daring men of science, can compete.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

Which usually, but not always, comes after the 1920s. Wouldn't work too well for Victorian SF a la Space:1889, but as long as you rule that out...

 

The antediluvian civilization is probably the best scenario, especially if their technology is advanced enough that pre-19th century explorers don't have the weaponry to resist being captured, but early 20th century tech, wielded by two-fisted adventurers and daring men of science, can compete.

 

Indeed, for a pulp-era game, the problem of a satellite or astronaut looking down on the lost land in the Australian interior is decades away. I was simply commenting on the limits.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

Indeed' date=' for a pulp-era game, the problem of a satellite or astronaut looking down on the lost land in the Australian interior is decades away. I was simply commenting on the limits.[/quote']

 

Of course, in pulp you get your Hans Zarkov types building rocketships, etc. Hmm...that might be a good way to get the PCs to such a lost world Australia...

 

"There seems to be a huge undiscovered landmass in the South Pacific. We'll be famous! I'm flying down for a closer look..." And then the ancient civilization shoots them down with a ray of sunlight concentrated through a series of gigantic crystals.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

Indeed' date=' for a pulp-era game, the problem of a satellite or astronaut looking down on the lost land in the Australian interior is decades away. I was simply commenting on the limits.[/quote']

 

But that would be a great plot for a Danger International storyline....

[austenandrews]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

There are vast deserts that could contain lush valleys off the beaten path, obscured from the air by optical effects. Said valleys could be the size of the Ireland and still fit in the Sahara, the American West, Australia, Arabia, etc. You'd have to jigger history a little to make it undiscovered, but it's pulp adventure, go for it.

[McCoy]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

I love me a good lost world/lost continent story. I was seriously bummed out when I heard that if all those African lost worlds in Tarzan were real, Africa would be bigger to the tune of an Australian sized mass of land.

It wouldn't all fit.

So when I came to run my (only) Pulp Hero campaign to date, I had a lost continent on the Kerguelen subsea plateau. Still awfully small for vast mountain ranges and the like, but it looked out of the way enough on a big National Geographic map in my grandfather's basement.

Unfortunately, it turns out that it is pretty hard to scrunch the territory out of the middle of the Perth-Capetown shipping lanes. Not very likely to be "lost" in 1922.

And hollow earths are silly. I love them even more than lost continents just because of the scope, but they are silly.

 

So what's the alternative? For various reasons, I don't really like the idea of a single door into an alternate dimension in somebody's laboratory, so I've been playing with the idea of a subspace-thingie door to another Earth that for some strange reason (gravity isometers?) only occurs at the bottom of deep caverns.

Any better ideas out there?

How's this:

 

There are at least a dozen "hidden valleys," known to the locals but not discussed, all circular, appear a mile or so accross. "Oh, that place? Nothing there of interest. Birds and animals avoid it, no good hunting that way. Terrain's too rough to walk accross, much easier to go around." Flying over at an altitude of more than half a mile and there is nothing noteworthy. At lower altitudes insterments give erratic readings.

 

At the center of each of these is a meteorite of an exotic material, in keeping with the Silver Age Atom let's call it dwarf star matter, that distorts space (and possibly in some cases time). Cross the boundry of the valley and you and all your equiptment shrinks. All in proportion, so you can't detect it, but like a TARDIS the valley is much larger inside than out. Outside you can leasurly stroll around it in a few minutes, inside larger than Australia. (And perhapse the home of animals long extinct outside the valley.)

 

(For those adventurers who see commercial applications of the dwarf star matter, they can never reach it. They run into an asymptote, no matter how long they go toward it it remains the same distance away.)

 

So Shangra-La, Brigadoon, Atlantis, Lemuria, the Bermuda Triangle, the Lost World, Diablo Canyon, all could be there, but easily overlooked on most maps. Call them Zeno Valleys, like Zeno's Parodox one can never reach the center of the valley.

[Susano]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

You could make all 12 of the Vile Vortices real.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vile_Vortices

 

[sinanju]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

I think you're all working from an initial--incorrect--premise unless I misunderstand the question.

 

Australia is slightly smaller than the United States...whereas Africa is larger than China, the USA, Western Europe, India, Argentina and the British Isles COMBINED.

 

If, as I first thought, you were saying Australia is bigger than Africa, that's not true--Africa dwarfs Australia.

 

If, instead, you're saying that Africa would have to have as much additional landmass as Australia to contain all those lost worlds...well, just wave your hand and declare that it is. The difference would be negligible considering how large Africa is already.

 

A visual aid: A map of Africa with proper perspective

[Kristopher]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

A visual aid: A map of Africa with proper perspective

 

Whatever point the creator of that map is trying to make is obscured by the following line, refering to the continent of Africa:

 

"...so we figured we'd put it in perspective by transposing as many of the world's other countries over it as we could."

 

Why, yes, that continent is largely than these several countries combined. Wow.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

I think you're all working from an initial--incorrect--premise unless I misunderstand the question.

 

Australia is slightly smaller than the United States...whereas Africa is larger than China, the USA, Western Europe, India, Argentina and the British Isles COMBINED.

 

If, as I first thought, you were saying Australia is bigger than Africa, that's not true--Africa dwarfs Australia.

 

If, instead, you're saying that Africa would have to have as much additional landmass as Australia to contain all those lost worlds...well, just wave your hand and declare that it is. The difference would be negligible considering how large Africa is already.

 

A visual aid: A map of Africa with proper perspective

 

I have a number of difficulties with putting too many lost worlds in Africa, some of which Kristopher would no doubt denounce as politically correct (I I kid, I kid).

But that ain't the point. I want a big lost world, andputting any kind of bounds on it is a problem, notwithstanding that "Darkest Africa" can be a very big playground.

[Prometheus]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

To be fair, you're trying to add something the size of a continent to the map while keeping anyone from seeing it. And it'll be hard to lose once someone has found it.

 

Put it in the antartic; Terra Australis has potential. The ice makes for good camo and there's a fair amount of room.

[McCoy]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

I think you're all working from an initial--incorrect--premise unless I misunderstand the question.

 

Australia is slightly smaller than the United States...whereas Africa is larger than China, the USA, Western Europe, India, Argentina and the British Isles COMBINED.

 

If, as I first thought, you were saying Australia is bigger than Africa, that's not true--Africa dwarfs Australia.

 

If, instead, you're saying that Africa would have to have as much additional landmass as Australia to contain all those lost worlds...well, just wave your hand and declare that it is. The difference would be negligible considering how large Africa is already.

 

A visual aid: A map of Africa with proper perspective

Depending on how "continent" is defined. Are there four, five, six or seven continents on Earth?

 

Afro-Eurasia: 84,360,000 km^2

Eurasia: 53,990,000 km^2

Asia: 43,810,000 km^2

Americas: 42,330,000 km^2

Africa: 30,370,000 km^2

North America: 24,490,000 km^2

South America: 17,840,000 km^2

Antarctica: 13,720,000 km^2

Europe: 10,180,000 km^2

Oceania: 8,500,000 km^2

Australia mainland: 7,600,000 km^2

 

So Africa is either the second or third largest continent, larger than North or South America, smaller than the combined Americas.

 

If we take the Australian mainland, it is almost exactly 25% the size of Africa. Don't think increasing the land area of Africa by a quarter is "negligible." This was the reason I proposed the Zeno Valleys; hard to find with satellite imaging, could be flown over without noticing, in fact would take a very skilful pilot to find one from the air, but walking in and out not that much of a problem.

[sinanju]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

Depending on how "continent" is defined. Are there four, five, six or seven continents on Earth?

 

Afro-Eurasia: 84,360,000 km^2

Eurasia: 53,990,000 km^2

Asia: 43,810,000 km^2

Americas: 42,330,000 km^2

Africa: 30,370,000 km^2

North America: 24,490,000 km^2

South America: 17,840,000 km^2

Antarctica: 13,720,000 km^2

Europe: 10,180,000 km^2

Oceania: 8,500,000 km^2

Australia mainland: 7,600,000 km^2

 

So Africa is either the second or third largest continent, larger than North or South America, smaller than the combined Americas.

 

If we take the Australian mainland, it is almost exactly 25% the size of Africa. Don't think increasing the land area of Africa by a quarter is "negligible." This was the reason I proposed the Zeno Valleys; hard to find with satellite imaging, could be flown over without noticing, in fact would take a very skilful pilot to find one from the air, but walking in and out not that much of a problem.

 

Eh. I think that a little fudging on each point (size of Africa, size of the lost worlds) would allow for them to be placed in Africa with little trouble for any practical gaming purposes.

 

Still, my own personal approach to the problem is as follows: the Great White Hunter who goes out and stumbles across a lost world (or two or three) is actually a son of Amber, though he doesn't know it. He really believes he's finding lost valleys/whatever in hidden corners of the earth. In reality, he's shadowwalking his way to them.

 

Which is why nobody else can ever find them when they try to follow his directions....

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

So, Lawnmower Boy, have any of our suggestions helped with your problem?

[matrix3]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

How's this:

 

There are at least a dozen "hidden valleys," known to the locals but not discussed, all circular, appear a mile or so accross. "Oh, that place? Nothing there of interest. Birds and animals avoid it, no good hunting that way. Terrain's too rough to walk accross, much easier to go around." Flying over at an altitude of more than half a mile and there is nothing noteworthy. At lower altitudes insterments give erratic readings.

 

At the center of each of these is a meteorite of an exotic material, in keeping with the Silver Age Atom let's call it dwarf star matter, that distorts space (and possibly in some cases time). Cross the boundry of the valley and you and all your equiptment shrinks. All in proportion, so you can't detect it, but like a TARDIS the valley is much larger inside than out. Outside you can leasurly stroll around it in a few minutes, inside larger than Australia. (And perhapse the home of animals long extinct outside the valley.)

 

(For those adventurers who see commercial applications of the dwarf star matter, they can never reach it. They run into an asymptote, no matter how long they go toward it it remains the same distance away.)

 

So Shangra-La, Brigadoon, Atlantis, Lemuria, the Bermuda Triangle, the Lost World, Diablo Canyon, all could be there, but easily overlooked on most maps. Call them Zeno Valleys, like Zeno's Parodox one can never reach the center of the valley.

 

So...what would happen when one of these lands in the ocean? It seems that the water in the ocean would just rush into the crater, never reaching the meteor, never filling up the space...

 

Maybe the effect periodically inverts, spewing the water (and anything else) back out, leaving a local "Charybdis" effect?

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

So' date=' Lawnmower Boy, have any of our suggestions helped with your problem?[/quote']

I like McCoy's suggestion. I don't know whether it works here specifically, but I'm sure it can be worked in somewhere.

The various "gate" ideas all seem to drive specific kinds of campaigns. I would personally love to see a Pulp Hero/Danger International campaign in Bulmer's "Dimensions" multiverse, but I'm still not seeing the answer that will allow me to have Nazi zeppelins competing with British jungle lords and American superscience for influence in a Lost World full of uncharted mountain ranges, rampaging dinosaurs, ancient empires and enigmatic ruins.

 

And I hope I'll be pardoned for being so darned picky!

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Hollow Earth --Not!

 

I like McCoy's suggestion. I don't know whether it works here specifically, but I'm sure it can be worked in somewhere.

The various "gate" ideas all seem to drive specific kinds of campaigns. I would personally love to see a Pulp Hero/Danger International campaign in Bulmer's "Dimensions" multiverse, but I'm still not seeing the answer that will allow me to have Nazi zeppelins competing with British jungle lords and American superscience for influence in a Lost World full of uncharted mountain ranges, rampaging dinosaurs, ancient empires and enigmatic ruins.

 

And I hope I'll be pardoned for being so darned picky!

 

Invent space travel early and let them go to Venus.