Oxymoronic Power Constructs

[Beetle]

I had a thought while browsing the generally excellent UNTIL book for speedster ideas. While I'm very grateful to Steve and the gang at DOJ for rescuing HERO and restoring it to its rightful place as the top system on the market, I sometimes have a problem with the philosophy of constructing powers. Namely, I hate oxymoronic power constructs!

 

What's an OPC? Any ability defined in such a way as to go against the meaning of the power used to build it. Examples? Try these popular ones for speedsters:

 

Teleport (must pass through intervening space). Excuse me? If you're passing through the intervening space, you're not teleporting!! That's what the word means!

 

Flight (must remain in contact with surface). Again, if you're touching the ground, you're not really flying! (dictionary: Fly - to travel by air. Not by running!)

 

I think most us could come up with many more examples of this sort of thing.

 

If somebody handed me characters with these prior to FREd, I would've tossed them out as pure cheese and told the player to find a different way to get the effects he wanted (and would've helped him get it). Okay, so I'm a horrible literalist, but words actually mean something, don't they? Anybody else feel this way?

 

Okay, I'm done. I just had to get that off my chest.

[Tim]

Hmmm, Both powers you brought up have existed long before FREd. I've seen the T-port one in 4th and the Flight all the way back to third.

 

Do you understand the effect they are trying to simulate?

Flight, surface only has been the best way to model the Flash's ability to run up the sides of buidings and on the top of water.

 

As for Teleport, must cross space, A speedster can move so fast that no one can him move. He literally appears to be in one spot one second, another the next. This is also a Speedster trick that tries to model what is seen in comics. The limitation says that there must be a way for the speedster to get from point A to point B. He can't just appear on a platform that floats in midair. or appear in a room that is sealed. The speedster COULD teleport from one side ofa stadium to the other, though. as it is easy to cover the ground inbetween.

[austenandrews]

As the corollary to Teleporting without teleporting, how about Stretching without stretching (Does Not Cross Intervening Space)? Of course there's Hand-to-Hand Killing Attack, Usable At Range, and Ranged Killing Attack, No Range. And Leaping, Doesn't Improve Vertical Leap.

 

Silly stuff.

 

-AA

[Trebuchet]

My favorite OPC is still "Energy Blast, Physical."

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

My favorite OPC is still "Energy Blast, Physical."

 

That's always been a fun one to explain to new players .

[Dust Raven]

More on topic...

 

I don't think of the words used to name the Powers (or Skills or Maneuvers or anything else starting with a capital letter) as being even remotely literal. It's all a guideline. It's all about mechanics and picking the mechanic you need to get the desired effect.

[CrosshairCollie]

And here I thought this was going to be about buying Invisibility with the Visible Limitation.

 

Yeah, Flight-along-surfaces sounds kind of funky (I usually use clinging for running up walls), but it really *is* the proper way to do the running on the surface tension of the water thing. Same with the 'moving too fast to be seen or interrupted' Teleport Dash.

 

Lots of the effects in HERO are done in a somewhat roundabout fashion; with the way the powers are built, it's just one of those things. One of my favorite odd power builds in the USPD was the 'Legion of Puppets', I think it was called, where you use an Indirect Variable SFX Blast to simulate taking control of another character's mind JUST long enough for him to squeeze off a shot at someone.

[Talon]

How about Invisibility with Invisible Power Effects?

[Beetle]

Originally posted by Tim

Hmmm, Both powers you brought up have existed long before FREd. I've seen the T-port one in 4th and the Flight all the way back to third.

 

Do you understand the effect they are trying to simulate?

Flight, surface only has been the best way to model the Flash's ability to run up the sides of buidings and on the top of water.

 

Somehow, I never noticed them before FREd, but I guess I wouldn't be surprised if they were widely used. Nobody in the groups I was in did stuff like that, though.

 

I understand why people use them. Because they see it as the easiest/simplest/best way to achieve the effects that they want. Fine (though I question whether the Flash should have turn modes on his running).

 

I realize that this stems from me being literally minded on some things. I get stuck in "A can not equal non-A" land when I see flight defined as not flying. So I thought I'd rant about it for all to enjoy.

[Col. Orange]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

My favorite OPC is still "Energy Blast, Physical."

 

Lawyering this: It's a kinetic energy blast

[Talon]

I once had a character who used a Force Field on a hillside.

[Blue Jogger]

Ok, how about this as a new power:

 

Move

Characters with this power can move 1" per 2 points spent. Note that if this adds to base running, it cannot be used except to increase running distance. If it is slightly limiting (super running that can go across water and up buildings but not into the air) than it is 2" per 3 points spent. If it can only be used to move in a very limited manner (say, by using swing lines or only in water or only to glide) than it is 1" per 1 point spent. If it is extremely limited (only to go across the top of the water) than it is 2" per 1 point. Non-combat multiples cost 5 points for x2 (the first one is free).

 

Super Running: 30" Move, x16 Non-combat (60 Active Points)

 

Riding Power Lines: 30" Move, x16 Non-combat (30 Active Points)

 

Walk on Top of Snow: 6" Move (3 points if snow is uncommon, 12 points if it becomes your main way of traveling)

 

 

[Blue Jogger]

I remember one character:

2d6 HKA Kick (4d6 w/STR)

 

Yes, it was Hand to Hand Killing Attack that could only be used by the character's feet. It was killing because...well, because, he'd kill people with it.

[Blue Jogger]

Oh yeah, before Nightvision, there was:

N-Ray Vision, Only to see at night

 

GM: So what blocks it?

Me: Normal walls, it's so I can see at night.

GM: Why not buy Ultraviolet vision?

Me: Doesn't work indoors, besides I can see color with N-ray.

GM (confused): Ok.

 

 

With another character, I tried one better.

N-ray Vision, Only when flashed

 

GM: So what blocks it?

Me: Not being flashed

GM: So when your normal vision is flashed, you can see through walls?

Me: Yeap.

GM: Is this because you were flashed three times last combat?

Me: Darn straight. I also want to buy extra damage classes linked to my N-ray Vision.

GM: What's the special effect?

Me: I'm going to hit them in the spleen, it will hurt more.

GM: What if you never get flashed again?

Me: That'll work too.

[Farkling]

a by the book comment.

 

If you use Clinging to run up and down walls, you stick to them better...

 

Technically Flight on a surface means you ARE flying, so -1d6 on KB rolls. With clinging the superspeedster becomes FAR more stable, cause now he gets +1d6 vs KB...

 

The 10d6 EB's just went from doing 7" KB to 1" KB...guess it's a better braced, quicker reacting speedster, eh ??

 

House Rule around here is that they don't get any Clinging bonus if an attack pushes them in the direction of gravity...

[JmOz]

Exactly,

 

Furthermore some other thoughts, usualy a speedster will have the flight in a MP with the running, this represents characters like the flash perfectly, while on the ground they are able to run great, but when they try to do a "trick" like running up a wall or on water the character looses some mobility

[DevoDog]

The "Flight, Only when in contact with a surface" is a throwback to 1-3rd Editions of Champions.

In those, NCM was different for Flight than with Running. (Non-Combat flight was much faster than NCM Running.)

 

Because NCM is now constant for movement powers, I think that nowadays, it makes more sense for Running + Clinging (although that doesn't give you the ability to run across liquids).

 

But the extra knockback should help balance things out.

[Pattern Ghost]

I just use the limitations not vs. knockback (-1/4), and linked to running (-1/2) on the Clinging. You stay in motion, or you fall off.

 

For water, you can always buy a ton of Swimming, Only on Surface (-1) and declare the SFX as running along the surface.

[Dust Raven]

There are a dozen different ways to write up such creative movement powers, and a dozen reason why each just won't work.

 

What happens if your speedster with the "teleport" running wants to run across a mine field, and invisible laser wall, or a glass floor? Technically, he can do it, but according to the SFX, it wouldn't work. So what happens why he tries?

 

Of course, the easy answer is to follow the SFX, and have him make a Luck roll or set off a mine, take damage for running through the laser field or fall through the glass floor. After all, the mechanics are just as much of a guideline as the names we use for them.

[CrosshairCollie]

I would consider 'across a mine field' as 'somewhere he couldn't run to normally'. Though part of me could see THAT ridiculous amount of speed as being so fast that he hits the mine and is gone before it goes off. He'd have to deal with the consequences of the laser field or glass wall, though, you're quite correct.

[Zed-F]

If you use Clinging to run up and down walls, you stick to them better...

I agree with the limitations not vs. knockback (-1/4), and linked to running (-1/2) comment posted below required on the clinging for a super-speedster. Also, flight while touching a surface will let you do things like run across water/lava/jello, which clinging won't do. Clinging would also be influenced by how slippery/uneven the surface is, which wouldn't apply to flight. So Clinging costs less, but is not quite as flexible.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Beetle

If somebody handed me characters with these prior to FREd, I would've tossed them out as pure cheese and told the player to find a different way to get the effects he wanted (and would've helped him get it). Okay, so I'm a horrible literalist, but words actually mean something, don't they? Anybody else feel this way?

 

No, I've never had a problem with this kind of power construction myself. I'm more a spirit person than a letter person, but...

 

If we insist in having meaninful words, we should change the names to fit the effects, not restrict the effects to fit the names.

 

"Telepathy" is a horrible name for instance. "Know What You Think" is better, because it encompasses those kinds of Telepathy simulating deductive abilities too. "Force Wall" would make more sense as "Protective Barrier".

 

The problem is "Know What You Think 10d6" sounds kinda of cheesy.

 

What would be an acurate-free-of-preconceptions name for Teleport or Flight? Tough question.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Rene

What would be an acurate-free-of-preconceptions name for Teleport or Flight? Tough question.

 

"Movement". Now we need to define a baseline and implement a host of advantages, limitations and adders for things like "on any surface", "maintain altitude", "gain altitude", "slow gravity", "only on/in/through certain mediums", "has (no) turn mode", "does not pass through intervening space" etc. etc. etc.

 

May as well change all damaging attacks to "Attack", again with a host of adders, advantages and limitations for all the various effects of attacks, all defenses to "defend", etc. We should end up with, what, 6 powers?

 

I prefer the current system, thanks. YOU name the power. "Flight" or "Teleportation" is just the building block you used to create the effect.

[Armitage]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

"Movement". Now we need to define a baseline and implement a host of advantages, limitations and adders for things like "on any surface", "maintain altitude", "gain altitude", "slow gravity", "only on/in/through certain mediums", "has (no) turn mode", "does not pass through intervening space" etc. etc. etc.

 

May as well change all damaging attacks to "Attack", again with a host of adders, advantages and limitations for all the various effects of attacks, all defenses to "defend", etc. We should end up with, what, 6 powers?

 

I prefer the current system, thanks. YOU name the power. "Flight" or "Teleportation" is just the building block you used to create the effect.

 

From the review of 4th Edition in Dragon # 162 (Oct 1990), describing the revision process:

"As politicians at budget summits like to say, everything was on the table. A Champions game player would blanch to see

some of the suggested changes: the Ego characteristic changed in name and cost, mental attacks hitting automatically, Damage Resistance and Mind Scan gone, and four, count ‘em, four successive sets of Growth rules. One radical suggested stripping the list of 60 + superpowers down to just four (Attack, Defend, Move, and Sense) and simulating all effects with advantages and limitations.

Yes, that latter suggestion died on delivery."

[prestidigitator]

I also like that Flight leaves no footprints. Claim that with Clinging, and I'd have to ask to see your Invisible Power Effects for both the Clinging and Running.