Balancing Mental Powers

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Something from the FAQ that may help you out:

 

If a character knows that the person attacking him has Mental Illusions as a power, does that hinder the attacker’s chances of creating a successful illusion?

It may depend on the circumstances, but generally yes. Treat the knowledge of the power as requiring a +10 modifier to the Effect Roll to achieve the desired effect.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Also from 5ER Page 200:

The target of a Mental Illusion receives a chance to make a Breakout Roll (with a bonus to the roll) if the illusion performs in a way that doesn’t meet his expectations…At the GM’s discretion, he receives additional bonuses to his roll if other persons try to “snap him out of it.

Those two sentences are, in my mind, key to dealing with a mentalist.

[Grimble]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Two words...Killer Robots!

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Also from 5ER Page 200:

 

Those two sentences are, in my mind, key to dealing with a mentalist.

 

I agree. Many of the suggestions for 'balancing mental powers' were just 'punishing mentalist players'; merely punitive hosers rather than actually analyzing the issue and coming up with a real answer.

[Psybolt]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

A mentalist villain is a great way to go. Psybolt used to be a villainous character in my campaign who the PCs never wanted to see. In fact, they rarely spoke his name in fer of his "hearing" it. Of course, he was massively abusive points wise and before the 5E took mentalists down a bit. Psybolt the character is no longer in any campaigns of mine and has been officially retired. But a good villain mentalist is as fun as a shape shifter can be with messing with the good guys.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

I agree. Many of the suggestions for 'balancing mental powers' were just 'punishing mentalist players'; merely punitive hosers rather than actually analyzing the issue and coming up with a real answer.

 

I have to agree with you there. The idea is for everyone to have fun. Mentalists are difficult to deal with because they tend to be either super-effective or useless, depending on whether their adversaries have brains or not.

 

For mentalist villians it doesn't matter because they are villians and it is okay for them to be lopsided. But in campaigns I have run, the rule is that you cannot make a character that is completely castrated by a particular situation, be that the mentalist against robots, power-armor guy without his armor, or supernatural creature who is only buffed at night. That may not fit exactly with the initial character conception, but it makes the game a lot more fun because the hero doesn't alternate between unstoppably powerful (which is a bummer for other PCs) and pathetically wimpy (which is a bummer for the mentalist).

 

I would suggest that your mentalist hero drop his mental powers a little to make him less dominating against the average foe, and use those points to round him out (buy martial arts, some backup weapon, or maybe empathic healing or something and let him buff his teammates).

 

One other trick to "balancing" mentalists is to break up their powers so that the first 8d6 works automatically, but the next 4d6 depends on a successful telepathic probe to find the opponents mental weaknesses (say Telepathy at EGO+10; this would be a -1/2 limitation on the extra dice). If you require an actual use of Telepathy, this will really slow the mentalist down, either because he will have to alternate mental attacks with Telepathy, or he will burn through endurance if he does a Multiple Power Attack. But you can also just call it a -1/2 limitation like Requires Skill Roll, but instead of a 3d6 skill roll, use the Telepathy mechanic to determine if he is successful (ie rolled EGO+10). You should probably give the mentalist some insight into his foes Psych Lims this way, and maybe give him a bonus for fights with reoccuring opponents.

 

Finally, one other way to keep the mentalist from dominating things is to realize that most people hate the thought of having their minds toyed with; it isn't really a Psych Lim or a Berserk, but I don't think it unreasonable to give most people a +1 or +2 to their Breakout roll depending on the circumstances. That won't stop the mentalist from controlling/confusing most people because as you noted EGOs tend to run low, but it takes the edge off a bit.

[handleyj]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Two words...Killer Robots!

 

Yeah, unfortunately he's got "Human and Machine classes of minds" on all the powers. He's a cyborg type. But Aliens! Oh, the aliens are coming out! Thanks for the suggestion.

[handleyj]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Also from 5ER Page 200:

 

Those two sentences are, in my mind, key to dealing with a mentalist.

 

Yes! This is excellent. It gives a role playing way to dictate that a victim gets a breakout roll with more frequency. I may still impose the "everyone gets a breakout roll on post-seg 12" rule. As I also wouldn't want a player to be out of the combat for as long as the Time Chart dictates. Also, I'm not sure, but other mental powers (like Mind Control) may not have the same rule (I'll read up on it later). And so in the case of other mental powers, the post-seg 12 house rule still gives more breakout attempts ... at what I would consider a fair amount of time.

 

But (at least in the case of Mental Illusions), those sentences give us the opportunity to make more breakout rolls. One of the interesting side effects of this rule is that if someone is attempting to help with a breakout roll, then they've effectively given up a phase in order to help. I like it.

[handleyj]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Something from the FAQ that may help you out:

If a character knows that the person attacking him has Mental Illusions as a power, does that hinder the attacker’s chances of creating a successful illusion?

It may depend on the circumstances, but generally yes. Treat the knowledge of the power as requiring a +10 modifier to the Effect Roll to achieve the desired effect.

 

Also excellent. Thanks!

[handleyj]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

1) Try using agents. That automatically lowers the character's effectiveness. If he gets to affect one agent, then three or four agents just blast him. Who cares if a guy with a 10 EGO and an 8d6 EB shoots another guy with a 10 EG0 and an 8d6 EB?

 

2) Build a brick who's powers are based on his psychokinetic field and give HIM mental defense. Let the misery commence.

 

3) Entangle the mentalist in a 5d6 Entangle that stops sight. Not only have you shut off all his powers, but his STR will likely prevent him from escaping. He's done.

 

4) MOST agencies and supervillain teams have a "Get the Mentalist First" strategy. If he's not hiding behind cover or something, tag him right away. Force him to dodge, abort to throw up a force wall, or get behind some cover.

 

5) Not everything has to be about his hero ID. If he's super-effective, have the villain agencies find out times when he's alone, and offer recruitment. TEMPT him. Of all the character roles, the moral slippery slope for the mentalist is the steepest. Use it.

 

6) An enemy mentalist can be this PC's worst nightmare. Tamper with the minds of HIS friends. And yes, I have run combats where, literally, no one knew who anyone was, where they were, etc. Everyone's places were switched, there was no idea of who was who, and "The Jeep of Doctor Brutallo" was disabled.

 

1) Not sure how agents "automatically lowers the character's effectiveness?" I think you're suggesting he'd waste time using his powers on the agents. However, were I the Metalist, I'd ignore the agents, and Mind Control/Mental Illusion the Brick, and have said Brick take out the agents.

 

2) Hmm ... I like that!

 

3) AWESOME! I hadn't thought about attacking the LOS requirement at all.

 

4) Yup.

 

5) Another AWESOME idea!

 

6) Yup.

[handleyj]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

I can't recall the last time I saw a mentalist with Mind Scan, actually; it's frightfully expensive to have a useful amount of it outside of the main Multipower, and of course if it's in a Multipower you can't use it to project a mental power later after you switch slots.

 

I'm going to start another thread on Mind Scan in particular. It's one of those powers that really confuses me.

 

 

On another note' date=' I'd think that enemy-switching stunt is a +20...[/quote']

 

Nope. 5ER page 201: "Major Changes -- Making friends look and act like enemies" Then on the table on that same page, EGO+10 = Major Changes.

 

...plus there's the issue of the powers in question. Sure' date=' you swap things around so that the Human Torch and Abomination changed places, but when the Abomination flies around and throws fireballs, you simply know something's wrong unless you're an idiot.[/quote']

 

As I mentioned in one of the previous posts, this is the bestest idea! Thanks!

[handleyj]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Also if the mentalist's favourite move is making the enemies fight each other why not use one big enemy rather then a group? Or one huge enemy who is an animal or an alien (Firewing) and the rest are much weaker human agents he has hired. If any of the agents turn on him' date=' He fireballs them. So heroes with code vs Killing won't want humans (no matter how villainous) killing each other.[/quote']

 

I love this idea! He does have a code vs. killing type disad (not exactly, but close enough).

 

Thanks!

[handleyj]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Sure' date=' you swap things around so that the Human Torch and Abomination changed places, but when the Abomination flies around and throws fireballs, you simply know something's wrong unless you're an idiot.[/quote']

 

Actually the more I think about this, the more I'm not sure it would work. For example:

 

Mental Illusions are in the mind; it affects all the target's senses. If Wolverine was successfully affected by 'Sabretooth just went running past' as an illusion' date=' he would smell Sabretooth as well.[/quote']

 

Wouldn't your previous example there be the same thing. The victim of the Human Torch/Abomination illusion wouldn't see Abomination flying around and throwing fireballs. Right? Wrong?

 

So I'm not really sure how this stuff from 5ER Page 200:

 

The target of a Mental Illusion receives a chance to make a Breakout Roll (with a bonus to the roll) if the illusion performs in a way that doesn’t meet his expectations...

 

...can really be implemented? Help...

[Tasha]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Actually the more I think about this, the more I'm not sure it would work. For example:

 

 

 

Wouldn't your previous example there be the same thing. The victim of the Human Torch/Abomination illusion wouldn't see Abomination flying around and throwing fireballs. Right? Wrong?

 

So I'm not really sure how this stuff from 5ER Page 200:

 

 

 

...can really be implemented? Help...

 

If the MI target thought that Torchie was Abomination. When Torchie first flew up he would see Abomination making a standard Superleap. The Fireballs would be seen as rocks being thrown. The incongrous part would be if Torchie were to hover (something that Abomination couldn't do) then the MI target would get a Breakout roll.

 

BTW If it were me I would have your Mentalist bring the Ego attack down to 6d6. Seeing as that is an NND (no Normal Defense) attack for like 80% of folk out there it is a big attack.

 

Also the ECV is a bit high IMHO, I would recommend that he drop it to 20 (ECV 7) that way he has some chance to fail against folk with 11ego (ecv 4)

 

For other ideas. Remember that some villainous agencies will eventually pull out their elite agent with the PsyHelms (Mental Def OIF), and conditioned to work together as a team (ie Completely loyal to Viper Common/Strong).

 

Also Villains that are hard cases (ie Wolverine) could have mental defenses based on being stubborn, or having training for resisting mentalists.

 

Also, Mental feedback for those who are insane or psychotic (does damage to mentalist due to shocking images at the highest levels of the mind, (ie Damage shield vs Ego, does Ego Damage NND (defense being a murderous sack of stuff or having 25 Pre)

 

Flashes work well. Basically anything that breaks LOS. Opaque Entangles are good.

 

The thing is to have enough if this kind of stuff where the character isn't walking over the opposition constantly, but you don't want to be constantly beating the character down or keeping him from doing his thing.

 

Tasha

[Balabanto]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Another few things you can do, now that I've had some time to think about.

 

1) Zen No-Mind. The Clouded Mind Perceives My Mind Not. A martial artist goes before the mentalist. He can have mental defense, and he hits really, really hard.

 

2) Darkness Lad. Darkness Lad is just like what's above, only he just moves up to the Mentalist, puts him in the dark, and beats him up. WARNING. This is broken beyond all rational belief. Darkness+Grab+High Strength equals a total victory combo that is excessively difficult to defeat without being a powergamey cheesemonkey. I tend to limit characters who have this combination of powers a lot. This doesn't just beat the mentalist. It beats everyone without special senses except a Brick.

 

3) Agents Part Two: Agents can have DMSO grenades. That's right. They can throw grenades that drain the target's EGO score. If there's eight guys, and each one throws a 2d6 Ranged Ego Drain, he just lost 56 points of EGO. Now his ECV is a 1 if his EGO was 30 to start with. If, as is more likely, his EGO is 23 or so, he's making EGO rolls to take actions himself.

 

4) STR Drain Bombs. Rude? Yes. Debilitating to the Brick also? Yes. But the MEntalist, at most, will have a STR of 10-15. If the hero can't lift his own weight anymore, he can't move. Then the villains do whatever they want after turning him in a direction he can't see, and leave after pinning a "Help me, I was a mentalist and they stuck a note on my butt with a clue to their next crime" sign on his behind.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Nope. 5ER page 201: "Major Changes -- Making friends look and act like enemies" Then on the table on that same page' date=' EGO+10 = Major Changes.[/quote']

 

IIRC, the EGO + 20 section has the example of making friends look and act like enemies. So the EGO + 10 result would have a flying Abomination shooting fireballs, much more incongruous.

[ideasmith]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

IIRC' date=' the EGO + 20 section has the example of making friends look and act like enemies. So the EGO + 10 result would have a flying Abomination shooting fireballs, much more incongruous.[/quote']

 

In general, when someone cites a page number, it indicates that that someone looked it up.

 

When I checked the same page that handleyj looked up and cited, I found the same wording that handleyj looked up and quoted.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

1) Not sure how agents "automatically lowers the character's effectiveness?" I think you're suggesting he'd waste time using his powers on the agents. However, were I the Metalist, I'd ignore the agents, and Mind Control/Mental Illusion the Brick, and have said Brick take out the agents.

Agents automatically lower the character's effectiveness because it takes time to take out a half-dozen mooks with blasters.

 

Yeah, he can mind control the brick, but while the Brick is nailing Mook #1, Mooks #2-6 are shooting the Mind Controller, Coordinating their shots, and sending him to Con Stun central.

 

More importantly, as mentioned, aliens are immune to his powers entirely. Also, you might want to look at my favored approach - the Nemesis Character. Give him a dedicated opponent, so to speak, who isn't designed to completely slaughter him, but to be an equal challenge. Most players appreciate this far more than a ridiculous number of foes they can't affect, and pitting the two mentalists against each other is a good way to keep everybody challenged.

 

Just give your Nemesis a sense of honor or some other compelling reason for him to focus on the opposing nemesis - my personal preference, in this situation? Half-alien Hybrid with an alien mentalist parent. You've got a perfectly logical reason for him to have hefty defenses against this character's mental powers, and his alien parent might well have raised him with a code of honor that means he only uses his mental powers against an opponent with similar powers of their own.

 

Entirely plausible, and it gives them a reason to fight each other while not spending the whole fight turning their enemies into chessmen to be used against each other.

[Mephron]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

I was in one of Balabanto's combats - the one mentioned with lots of mental illusions and mind control. The problem is that the villian mentalist controlled my character with a VERY good control condition: 'attack the person who looks like x'.

 

Admittedly, once the other PCs realized that, they hit me with a mental illusion to swap the appearances of the target and the mentalist. (Yeah. My PC was hit by mental effect by BOTH sides. Sad, isn't it, when your friends do that to you...)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

In general, when someone cites a page number, it indicates that that someone looked it up.

 

When I checked the same page that handleyj looked up and cited, I found the same wording that handleyj looked up and quoted.

 

Maybe I'm thinking of a prior edition. I recall there being a chart which included "Friends look like enemies" at one level with "friends look and act like enemies" 10 points higher, but it may be pre 5e. Re-reading the priginal comment, maybe "look like enemies" is at a lower level.

 

Since I don't bring my books to work, looking it up while here is tougher.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

5ER is pretty clear; p201

 

Major Changes the first thing listed: "Making friends look and act like enemies"

 

Major Changes is EGO+10 on the MI chart.

[handleyj]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Yeah, but Hugh is almost right. There is a level for "Making friends look like (but not act like) enemies." It's considered a "Cosmetic Change" and only requires an EGO+1 (i.e. "Greater than EGO") effect roll.

 

Thanks everyone for the help!

[DocMan]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Try reading the section on Mental Powers

 

After the initial attempt to break free [which occurs in the character's first phase - HN]' date=' the victim can re-attempt the breakout roll at +1 for each step on the Time Chart. The character thus gets to roll at +1 after 1 Turn has passed, +2 after 1 Minute has passed, and so forth. (The victim does not get to make a Breakout Roll on each of his Phases - only when specified by the Time Chart.)[/quote']

 

But if the initial attempt to break free fails, a character's teammates can attempt to aid him and get him another breakout role. The aid could be an Aid to Ego, or just "That's your partner, you idiot! The Mentalist is making you see things! Snap out of it!"

 

Doc

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

Actually, its been my experience that most characters make their breakout rolls fairly often, and that mentalists are therefore very erratic in their effectiveness unless you bring cumulative and taking multiple actions to achieve an effect into the mix.

 

Im in a hurry, but a few quick points:

 

1) Any psylims that are applicable count as EGO for purposes of mental powers; trying to make a person kill is considerably harder if they have a Code vs Killing for instance.

 

2) Out of cycle Breakout rolls are allowed any time something hinky occurs that doesnt jive w/ the level of effect achieved.

 

3) Sentient characters are considered to be "Human" class of mind. If they have additional classes of minds such as Robot having a Machine Class mind they take them as a PhysLim in addition to the assumed default of "Human". The Class of Mind effect is not intended to offer mental immunity. If a character wants to represent they are protected vs "human class" of mind due to having a "Machine Class of Mind" or whatever they buy limited Mental Defense to that effect. Animals and automatons are not sentient and this doesnt apply.

 

 

4) If a mentalist does not have IPE at the +1/2 level then their targets KNOW they are being attacked and get some useful info; this is covered in the Mental powers description at the start of the Powers chapter.

 

5) Even if a character doesn't have Mental Defense or a high EGO you can take 2 point skill levels usable with Breakout rolls. Its not entirely efficient, but it does model a particular concept of having no mitigation but being able to shake off long term mental effects. Something like:

 

10 1) Determined: +5 with Breakout Rolls

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Balancing Mental Powers

 

But if the initial attempt to break free fails' date=' a character's teammates can attempt to aid him and get him another breakout role. The aid could be an Aid to Ego, or just "That's your partner, you idiot! The Mentalist is making you see things! Snap out of it!"[/quote']

 

Absolutely - that's covered somewhere else in the rules. Of course, if the Mentalist is making me see things, he should be smart enough to make me HEAR things as well. But the "extra breakout roll when friend tries to assist" is a tried and true trope in the source material, as well as a rule in the rulebook, and should not be lightly dismissed.