Npc overload!!

[SimComm]

Hi All,

The last post went over so well (thanks for everyone's support), that I decided to post the other major criticism of my campaign, and that there's too many NPCs!

I like making families, boyfriends/girlfriends (who can become villains), contacts, etc. and well, it's not unusual that each character has a small army after a few weeks. Once you get everyone's individual clique mixing with other people's clique, then it gets even more fun. I know I have a blast.

The only problem is that a few of the less talkative players (I'll admit it, they like hitting things), state that if there's not a fight per session, then it's not as interesting for them. Have had a few people leave for that reason too...

My question is: How to curtail the NPC plague? I would never think of killing them, but putting too many "on the bus" would be a disservice too. However, it does make it hard for new players to come in, especially since they have to get used to so many faces, and also that some players like their NPCs so much, that they can hog game time...

General help!

 

Thanks,

-SC

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Do you see everyone you know every day? Every week even? Simply don't use every NPC every session. It may be more complicated than that, but at the most basic level that would seem to help.

 

Another issue may very well be play style in general. If all they want to do is hit things than the issue might not be the number of NPCs at all, it might be that those particular players want a dungeon crawl, not a role playing experience with social conflict, relationships, et cetera, whether it’s with NPCs or other Players.

[SimComm]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

bigbywolfe:

I suppose we're about 75/25 (sadly enough many of us used to be LARPers) in terms of Talkers/Fighters, and I guess that's where the rub is.

One thing that's a problem is that many of the heroes have yet to share each other's secret identities, and it's creating distance yet.

And well, I mean, who wouldn't like the attention of having your own special world and all

Maybe I should start mixing in people's NPCs? It would be interesting if dependants start dating each other or what not.

 

Best,

-SC

[ghost-angel]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Gaming is a lot like a Sitcom - you have the core main characters that appear every session. You have a small cadre of Regular Guests that appear once every couple of sessions, or every other session. And then you have an entire troupe of characters that you'll see once, and will never come back. They there for the witty exchange, the passing of information, to forward a specific scene and then *poof* - Aunt Mildred is just a character that appeared in that one episode.

 

Sure, you might talk about her in passing:

GM: What are you doing?

Player: Oh, driving back from Aunt Mildred's, I'm probably near downtown on the freeway about now.

 

Also - stop making so many NPCs to begin with - let the Players fill in some gaps too. And always leave an opening down the line for a new NPC.

[SimComm]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

ghost-angel:

Nod, perhaps I've been too nutty with the whole NPC gig, but I love making them

I think I'll tone them down, but first I have to consolidate them!

 

Best,

-SC

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

I agree that you don't need them all each time. A few per session should generally be enough, maybe with a few others in brief appearances.

 

Their purpose (aside from color) is to serve the plot/subplot. Ones that don't feature in the plot/subplot or worse distract from it can be left out.

 

Also try to avoid unnecessary duplication. You don't need three astrophysicists or four reporters when one or two will do. Let PCs have some overlap in contacts. This can also help with bringing new players in, as you can give them a list of a few established NPCs they already know that can help them connect to the larger world/the other PCs faster.

[SimComm]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Supreme Serpent:

Thanks for the advise. I must admit that lately, things have been devolving into a mass sit-com-esque (but still fun) sort of events where the PCs have to manage their wildly inquisitive NPCs from finding about them (or each other).

I think I'll probably slowly start having the NPCs get lives and pull back from the PCs, and force the PCs to get to know each other better. Of course, if NPC A decides to propose to NPC B (nicely taking them both out of the picture, and will let me vicariously plan a wedding; which will be doubtlessly annihilated by the PCs' antics), I'm not responsible

 

Best,

-SC

 

P.S. What's HERO Warhammer 40K?

[Vondy]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

I would just fade most of the non-player characters into the background. A holocaust of the walk-ons isn't really necessary. Just don't walk so many of them onto the stage. The players who like the supporting cast interaction will seek it out while those who don't won't be burdened by it. Once you've identified the non-player characters the players respond to best you can either make them plot relevant, or keep them as your core of regulars, with the others being once in a blue moon affairs. I recommend a ratio of no more than 1:1 player character/regular supporting cast per session (not including antagonists), but even lower keeps things moving. I used to be a world-builder of pedantic detail and granduer. I had droves of organizations, non-player characters, and behind the scenes action. It was fun for me, but in terms of players, its only useful if it enhances their play experience, and it can bog things down. As a result, I've started running what I can "on screen canon." It exists if its showed up or been referenced "in-game." Otherwise, its just brainstorming notes.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Regarding the too-many-NPCs and fight-vs-roleplay issues, perhaps you can adjust NPCs to fit the fighter types.

 

I have a similar situation, with a few players more interested in the battles than in the roleplaying, a few more into the roleplaying aspects, and one who can go either way. Every session, I have stuff to make all of them happy (there's almost always a fight every session, even if only a minor one not really related to the main plot) and I've introduced NPCs to fit those players.

 

For instance, Squeeze was a combat type whose main RP interactions were taunting villains during fights and flirting with ladies. So I introduced a PRIMUS team, led by a female agent who was pretty anti-supers in general. I also introduced a female reporter who despised Squeeze for some unknown reason. I also introduced a few other PRIMUS and UNTIL agents, of both genders, for him to interact with during or after battles. He dated one of them for a time, went out of his way to save a different one during a battle... you get the idea.

 

You do need to keep from having NPC overload, though introducing one-shots along the way is fine. Some of them the players will really take a shine to, and those you can work into repeat appearances.* But the ones that the players seem like they can take or leave, just let those NPCs slide into the background and only bring in to fit certain specific plotlines. It's important that the GM have fun, but not at the expense of the players.

 

I've found that a half-dozen or so fully-fleshed-out NPCs per player is a decent number, with maybe another half-dozen or more cardboard-cutout NPCs related to them. (For instance, the superheroine's NPC rich boyfriend might have an executive assistant and a driver that the PC interacts with on occasion, but the latter two are mostly names and a few unique personality or professional traits.)

 

* A one-shot PRIMUS agent, code-named Rocker, really hit it off with one female PC (Tempest) to the point that she asked if he was one of the PRIMUS agents that showed up after the heroes' next battle. Rocker not only became a regular, but he eventually became engaged to Tempest. The heroes helped get him a battlesuit and he became a superhero himself. NPC evolution can be a lot of fun.

[azato]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

What I have been doing (keep in mind that this advice is from somebody getting back to gaming after years and years of haitus...so I am no expert), or at least am attempting, is to give every person something for their character each session, by this I mean some plot/npc whatever, and then one big combat.

 

I have a fairly complicated plot developing, they were complainging that it was getting a bit too deep. I was willing to streamline and kill those points, but when I mention each portion I was going to kill and was then about to divulge what was REALLY going on, they did not want me to. Every plot line they wanted to keep. I realized that I need to have combat every game to keep everybody interested and that for the extrovert I need to limit their time and expand the time for those who are not quite so extroverted.

 

 

So, perhaps don't kill the NPC's but just focus on 15 mins for each player during the game and then a big combat to round it out.

[SimComm]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Wow, thanks for everyone's advice! I'm amazed at to what happens at this forum!

 

Vondy:

1:1 ratio might be a little harsh, I think I can slowly move them down, with perhaps 1:1 as a goal...

My main problem is that the pedantic/talky types are about 75% of us, and if you let us, we'll talk all the game, but the others will be left out. I've actually had players say, "Can we get to the hitting things part of the game soon?"

I suppose it's one of the reasons why my game has had a fairly frequent turnover... and the reason I started this thread.

I just wonder how to integrate this in without scaring the others...

 

BoloOfEarth:

Sounds like a great campaign! Fighty NPCs? Hmm.. well, I suppose anything is worth a shot. Most of my NPCs have been a bit passive, if only that the PCs tend to be easily overshadowed. I have to FORCE most of them to do anything public

(Most of us were LARPers at one time or another and "fighting from the shadows" is an unfortunate reflex. Even umm... if we're supposed to be wearing bright spandexy outfits...)

 

Azato:

Actually, this is the bit that I was trying to say, thanks!

I want every player to feel special during the game, and right now, I've got about a 75% happy rate. 25% meh/displeased is making me

It's just hard when a player's main character output is hitting things...

 

Thanks again all!

-SC

[ghost-angel]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Make some of the incidental encouters the Force Driven type. They may not be full blown combats, but a Marv Approach to investigation can help satisfy the part of the group that just wants to hit things, while still keeping things on the talking side of the spectrum a bit (i.e. don't pull out a battle map, but let those who came to roll dice and hit stuff do just that).

[Vondy]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Vondy:

1:1 ratio might be a little harsh, I think I can slowly move them down, with perhaps 1:1 as a goal...

 

A few thoughts:

 

I don't think you can shift gears overnight, hence the term "fade them into the background." You just downshift until you hit what works for you and your group. It may be 3:2, it may be 1:1. And it may be that you can leverage your combat monkeys for more NPCs for interaction hounds because they don't want them in the first place. In that vein...

 

You can tailor stage time to player wants. If you have two players who want combat and adventuring, tailor their stage time to that. If you have players who want interaction time, tailor their stage time to it. Insofar as you don't lose track of the plot, or better yet, have the interactions lead into the plot that ends in the big brawl, it will work to your favor.

 

Lastly, the correct ratio really depends on the size of the group and how much time you have to run games. With smaller groups you can have a bigger ratio. With medium to large groups you have to cut them down or it eats up all the time and people who like other things: investigations, adventuring, brawling lose out.

 

These days I run a solo game via google docs. The protagonists are the PC and his partner (Pseudo GM PC). I have a recurring cast to protagonist ratio of something like 6:1. In my older games where I had 3-4 player characters (my norm) I tried to keep recurring cast to 3:2. I had huge stores of walk ons and once in a blue moon guest starts, but for "regular faces" it paid to keep the count down. If it was 5+ players I usu. shot for 1:1.

 

But the key is: work yourself down to a ratio that works for your group and stick with it.

[PKK]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

I agree with Vondy's post and would like to expand on something mentioned in passing: the communal campaign blog. This is an electronic descendant of Aaron Allston's concept of "Blue Booking," published in his Strike Force campaign sourcebook (Hero Games # 42, published by Iron Crown Enterprises, 1988, p. 12.).

 

A communal blog would allow players who wish to do so, including the GM, an avenue to depict the off-stage activities that so often bore the wits out of the combat junkies: internal monologues, NPC interactions, romantic moments and other subplots. With reasonably mature, trustworthy players, it can even be a way to run solo adventures without leaving the other players watching DVDs and chasing snacks. Events that occur on the blog stage can be mentioned in passing, and events that are covered by a single die roll can be expanded. The GM would not be expected to give a bonus to experience for posting to the communal blog unless such a bonus was declared as a feature of the campaign from the blog's inception.

 

The communal blog adds depth and texture to the campaign world, allows players to contribute to the creativity and may even turn the spotlight on some of those NPCs who get crowded out when the fight gets heated.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

BoloOfEarth:

Sounds like a great campaign! Fighty NPCs? Hmm.. well, I suppose anything is worth a shot. Most of my NPCs have been a bit passive, if only that the PCs tend to be easily overshadowed. I have to FORCE most of them to do anything public

(Most of us were LARPers at one time or another and "fighting from the shadows" is an unfortunate reflex. Even umm... if we're supposed to be wearing bright spandexy outfits...)

 

To reduce the risk of overshadowing, the NPCs don't have to be fighters themselves, or perhaps just not very good at it. They can just be the types that the "combat monsters" keep encountering in combat situations. For instance, you might have a reporter that keeps getting into trouble, and the hero often encounters him/her in or near a fight-type situation (mugging, witnessing a crime in progress, etc.)

 

In my game world, PRIMUS often shows up after most, if not all, of the action is over (at least in cases involving the PC heroes). Occasionally the PRIMUS agents are just going down battling a superior foe when the heroes show up to save the day.

 

The trick, to me, is keeping such NPCs from becoming DNPCs that the heroes don't get points for. That, to me, wouldn't be fair. I try to balance the "save me" parts with equal parts of helpfulness, or just not put them in direct danger all the time.

 

Also, I wanted to note that, when a game gets too heavy on combat and light on NPC interaction, I think it's not as fun even for the "combat monsters" of the team. The same works in the opposite direction. A cast of thousands can be wearing, even on the RP fanatics. All things in moderation.

 

Best of luck!

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

The GM would not be expected to give a bonus to experience for posting to the communal blog unless such a bonus was declared as a feature of the campaign from the blog's inception.

 

Alternately, actions from the communal blog could generate specific bonuses (free Contacts, Favors, Knowledge Skills, etc.) to those player characters involved.

 

Good idea on the blog, BTW. Repped.

[SimComm]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Thanks for the idea about the blog.

It might be a way to get people to slowly move away from "too much talky."

Sigh, now if only I could do "fighty" well...

I like my combat scenes to be short, and kind of over with very fast.

I actually do worry about the players a bit, as there are a few "made of glass" PCs who could be taken out of action by a normal bullet...

 

-SC

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

By "taken out of action" do you mean Killed? Or just taken out for the rest of the fight/part of the session? If the second, then, well, that should happen occasionally.

[Tasha]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Thanks for the idea about the blog.

It might be a way to get people to slowly move away from "too much talky."

Sigh, now if only I could do "fighty" well...

I like my combat scenes to be short, and kind of over with very fast.

I actually do worry about the players a bit, as there are a few "made of glass" PCs who could be taken out of action by a normal bullet...

 

-SC

 

Actually, it's in genre for Killing attacks to be quite rare. That's why in the Champions Universe a group like Viper uses blasters that are based on big Energy Blasts. It's just more in genre to shoot energy beams and not bullets.

 

I highly recommend having even the RP interaction folk have a combat capable character. They don't necessarily have to have resistant defenses, but they should have at least the minimum of PD and ED. I recommend at least 2x the average DC in PD ie if the campaign is based around 12d6 attacks then the PCs should have at least 24 defense (or within 10%) and no more than 30 PD and ED (which is 2.5x avg DC).

 

The characters should be able to go into battle and not be hospitalized by it.

 

BTW Combats give lots of fodder for out of combat role play. It's where characters with Codes vs Killing can butt heads with those who don't. It's also the time where that cast of a thousand NPC army can be terrorized by the villains. It can also be a nice change of pace for everyone Combat monsters and RP fiends alike.

 

As for plot ideas and how to add combat into the soap opera. I would recommend the 70's era Fantastic Four books. The characters had matured, but there was still the strange love/hate triangles and conflicts. Even villains (ie Sub Mariner) could cause problems for the group impersonally. They would argue for an issue or two and then would have to go out to defeat some menace. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

Tasha

[SimComm]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

bigbywolfe:

Actually by "out of action" I did mean dead. I started a new thread about the umm... fighty discrepancy if you would like to look at their stats.

 

Tasha:

I love those Fantastic Four books! I'm glad someone else does too!

I'm a big fan of Namor-Sue relationships (I mean, come on Sue, what else does the boy need to have? He's a prince, handsome/hot, FLIES, and has morals built on ferro-crete!)

Perhaps I've been overdoing it using handguns and the like in the normal "street fights" that the PCs occasionally run into. It feels better than having them use baseball bats all the time

 

Thanks,

-SC

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

My main problem is that the pedantic/talky types are about 75% of us, and if you let us, we'll talk all the game, but the others will be left out. I've actually had players say, "Can we get to the hitting things part of the game soon?"

I suppose it's one of the reasons why my game has had a fairly frequent turnover... and the reason I started this thread.

I just wonder how to integrate this in without scaring the others...

I want every player to feel special during the game, and right now, I've got about a 75% happy rate. 25% meh/displeased is making me

It's just hard when a player's main character output is hitting things...

 

The obvious solution is to suggest the 25% of players who aren't happy leave. Tbh I don't think they are a good fit for your style, everyone would be better off. Then you can just stop worrying about keeping people who only like combat happy.

[SimComm]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Doug McCrae:

Well, it's a little more complicated than that...

The 25% is actually... ok it's one player (my group is rather small and we have had 4 players for quite some time).

But he's friends with the party leader, and I get the feeling that if he leaves, then we might lose both of them (signal destruction of campagin...).

I might just be overreacting (I do that sometimes; Chronic Worrier Syndrome), but I'd like everyone to be happy...

 

Thanks,

-SC

[azato]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

But that may make an interesting point to the story. Pehaps a character with mental powers is taken out of action, but comes out of unconciousness/surgery/coma with some psycic revelations.

 

I have thougth about this a bit with my campaign, and I am sure that evrery GM does. I would say is think to your self...suppose something catastrophic happens, how can I make something out of it. Maybe even talk to the player regarding this issue. They may say, they want their character to face possible death and that is the appeal. They may not mind if their character is crippled as they can see that a driving a certain aspect in their character (or npc, etc)

 

 

 

I actually do worry about the players a bit, as there are a few "made of glass" PCs who could be taken out of action by a normal bullet...

 

-SC

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Npc overload!!

 

Personally I have tons of NPCs. So many that I rarely need a new one for a new storyline but they built up over decades of gaming. If the PCs are interested in interactions, like mine are, its nice to have a personality behind it. Often they start simple not full write ups at all, but get more complicated as the players meet them over and over again. You know you're golden when the group seeks a certain NPC out for something when they may not be the obvious choice or don't involve them because the subject matter of the current adventure may upset them.

 

Anyway, let things develop organically. Fill out NPCs they're interested in and leave ones that don't matter simple but having a character already there to fill a bit role never hurts. You have to gauge the amount of interaction your group wants and try to go with that. You won't always make everyone happy because that's not possible. Its obviously best to have a group that works well with your style.

 

its part of your job as GM to try and make sure everyone has a good time but its a fine balance. Don't sacrifice the needs of the many for the needs of the few (one) Finally remember you have to be happy with the game. Not only is it supposed to be fun but if you're not happy it will reflect in your campaign.