Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

People frequently boggle my mind --- you've got a rather decent explanation of a new ability and how it helps the system. You've got multiple people who have actually seen the writeup telling you how much they like it. And you somehow manage to ignore this and come up with a worst case scenario in your head that ignores many things you've already been told....just so you can be pissed off, from what I can tell.

 

Barrier 10PD/10ED, 0 BODY

 

How hard is that? How is that a "big, clunky, overcomplicated, ugly power construct"?

 

Seriously.

 

Oh...wait. You want it to cost END to maintain or it disappears.

 

Barrier 10PD/10ED, 0 BODY, Costs END to Maintain

 

Wow. Clunky and overcomplicated all right.

 

From where I'm sitting, you've got more options and more elegant approaches to common schticks than you did before. But hey, feel free to ignore this as well and be all negative.....it's apparently what many do best.

 

We're inveterate tinkerers and will never be satisfied until everyone agrees with all the opinions that we have and suggestions that we have made, then we will change our opinions Be boggled. Be very boggled.

 

At present I'm not sure how an instant power (as barrier is described) can move around (as Sue Storm's FFs can, as she moves): entangle, for example, can not move around even if you make it continuous or make it cost END to maintain. An instant power (unless the definition has changed) happens, has effects, and that is it - the effect of the power is permanent (until destroyed/healed/whatever).

 

It seems like some power modifier or rule that we are not currently privy to will be needed to make Barrier work like Force Wall. Alternatively we use Continuous and Mobile, but that means tacking on two advantages to do something we could do with a straight power in 5e and that will mean you are making the actual force wall/barrier pretty weak: that is a lot of power modifier, which will reduce the base points you can put in.

 

I can absolutely see that you can make a stationary barrier work like a Force Wall: no worries, but I do not think Prestidigitator's concerns about complexity proliferation in a common build are unwarranted at this stage, but it may be that we are simply not working with all the information. The answer may well be in the book, and I'll be getting that as soon as I can.

 

I like the changes I've seen previewed, and I have not been shy in saying so. I think 6e will be great. Doesn't mean it is going to be perfect and it doesn't mean, no matter how many people have tested it that there are not going to be some forehead slapping moments when someone points out something that could or should have been in there, or would have worked better with a different mechanic.

 

Of course there's the APG...

[Simon]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Actually at first I merely asked if there was an simple' date=' official option for building the original Force Wall. I then got shouted at and told basically, "Duh! It's obvious." [i']That[/i], I'll admit, I got a little annoyed at, and don't agree with. It seems to me that creating an independent, stand-alone, permanent object is quite different from actively maintaining a continuous power. There are benefits (remove the barrier at will just by ceasing to maintain it), drawbacks (End cost, having to be around and coherent), and other differences (the possibility of keeping it centered on yourself). So can we stop with the, "What, are you stupid/mean/trollish?!" and actually talk about the differences?

 

And yes, I focused on the negative. Actually I wouldn't say, "negative," is the biggest thing that focused me on it. I'd say, "unknown/uncertain," is bigger for me. The other changes I think are pretty simple and straightforward, and I like them. I probably should have said that first, but I tend to focus on the mechanics, and I should've done a little friendly ego stroking first. But I must ask, are we not allowed to ask questions about bits of this that we find a little disturbing, uncertain, or unclear? If so I'll gladly shut my yap, but I'll have a somewhat reduced opinion of this company as well.

So, in the absence of information (being that you do not have and have not read the rulebook), you'll focus on the negative? A negative that you make up in your own head based on information that you have to know is partial and lacking in many areas?

 

You're welcome to ask questions -- but they're likely to go unanswered, as those individuals who are privy to the entirety of the new rules are hesitant to expand upon things that Steve has said (they're under somewhat strict orders not to divulge information).

 

These are "teaser" previews. There will be many unanswered questions regarding them. That's kinda the point. Your focusing on the negative in the absence of other information does absolutely nothing to help anybody and is (quite frankly) frustrating in the extreme to those of us who have read the new rules and who have stated (multiple times) in this thread that they work quite well and allow for a much expanded (NOT diminished) range of effects that you can simulate.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Armor and Force Field have been combined into a new Power called Resistant Protection. It uses the cost structure for Armor (3 Character Points for 2 points of Resistant Defense)' date=' though as with Force Field you can define this as Power Defense, Mental Defense, or the like instead of just PD and ED.[/quote']

Since Power Defense, Mental Defense and the like don't usually have to be Resistant, isn't this a little odd? I mean, you would buy e.g. Resistant Protection: +5 PD, +5 PD, +5 Mental Defense, +5 Flash Defense and then have to put a Non-Resistant limitation on the Mental Defense and the Flash Defense.

 

Or is there also a plain Protection power for non-resistant defenses?

 

- Klaus

[Simon]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Since Power Defense' date=' Mental Defense and the like don't usually have to be Resistant, isn't this a little odd? I mean, you would buy e.g. [i']Resistant Protection: +5 PD, +5 PD, +5 Mental Defense, +5 Flash Defense[/i] and then have to put a Non-Resistant limitation on the Mental Defense and the Flash Defense.

 

Or is there also a plain Protection power for non-resistant defenses?

 

- Klaus

 

You just buy the defenses -- PD, ED, Power Defense, Mental Defense, Flash Defense. By default, they're all non-resistant.

 

If you want them to be resistant, you can either use the Resistant Advantage (as a Naked Modifier to affect Characteristics, etc) or you can purchase Resistant Defenses.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Another meh for me.

 

1) I like Armor and Force Field more or less as is. What few changes I see needing to be made, I can make myself via house rules with no need to pay $80+ for a new edition of the rules.

 

2) Just adding an option to give Force Wall some BODY is trivially easy (again, via house rules).

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

In my experience, people on these boards don't lack for opinions on what they like or dislike, especially with regard to the game system. Every time there's a major change looming (as was the case going from 4th to Fuzion, and from 4th to 5th), there's going to be a lot of anxiety and more than a little pessimism out there. The tone coming from some posters is going to be a bit negative, undoubtedly. Also in my experience, DOJ tends to put out good product, and does seem to go out of their way to get feedback both before and after putting product out, so I would suggest lending them the benefit of the doubt wrt rules changes. I suspect most people will be pretty happy with the overall product.

And Steve and company have undoubtedly been working their butts off, forgoing more than a bit of sleep to produce the best possible product on time, so I don't doubt that their fuses may be a bit shorter than usual. All that said, though, these forums are a major point of contact between the company and its customer base, and any impressions given thereunto may be lasting ones. It behooves all parties involved to conduct themselves accordingly. Be excellent to each other, dudes.

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Another meh for me.

 

1) I like Armor and Force Field more or less as is. What few changes I see needing to be made, I can make myself via house rules with no need to pay $80+ for a new edition of the rules.

 

2) Just adding an option to give Force Wall some BODY is trivially easy (again, via house rules).

 

Any rule in any new version of any game ever written can be added via house rules to a previous version of the rules. Noting that a new rule can just be added via house rules to the existing version without having to pay for the new version is pretty pointless.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

It's also worth a note that Barrier does not "just add a Body Option to Force Wall" and dismissing it like that is almost rude. Especially without having read the full Mechanic.

[ajackson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

At present I'm not sure how an instant power (as barrier is described) can move around.

I'm not sure how a constant power can do so either; unless there's some form of 'attachable' advantage, force walls are immobile. In any case, there's probably a limitation that turns a barrier continuous.

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Here's something that I just thought of:

 

I'd imagine that since Barrier can have BODY, then that means that it is not so simple for a, say, 12 ED FW to be shattered by a mere 1/2d6 physical attack (or vice versa).

 

This makes me curious about the future of the Transparent Advantage...

 

Also, if I may be so bold, might I take a guess at costs?

 

3 CP for 2 Resistant DEF (any) or else 5 CP as before?

1 CP for 1 BODY?

1 CP for 1m (any dimension)?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Actually at first I merely asked if there was an simple' date=' official option for building the original Force Wall. I then got shouted at and told basically, "Duh! It's obvious." [i']That[/i], I'll admit, I got a little annoyed at, and don't agree with.

And you were absolutely right to be annoyed. I keep seeing this attitude from the SETAC folks that says, "We know stuff we're not telling you, but just trust us."

 

And yes, I focused on the negative. Actually I wouldn't say, "negative," is the biggest thing that focused me on it. I'd say, "unknown/uncertain," is bigger for me. The other changes I think are pretty simple and straightforward, and I like them. I probably should have said that first, but I tend to focus on the mechanics, and I should've done a little friendly ego stroking first. But I must ask, are we not allowed to ask questions about bits of this that we find a little disturbing, uncertain, or unclear? If so I'll gladly shut my yap, but I'll have a somewhat reduced opinion of this company as well.

You shouldn't have to stroke anyone's ego here. You're the customer, as am I. It is a customer's perogative, and indeed duty, to "focus on the negative". Although I don't think that's what you did at all. You did what you said above: you focused on the unknown. In the absence of other new information, the natural assumption is that other things have remained the same. So it was perfectly reasonable to ask about the complexity of building a Force Wall-style Barrier.

 

So' date=' in the absence of information (being that you do not have and have not read the rulebook), you'll focus on the negative? A negative that you make up in your own head based on information that you [i']have[/i] to know is partial and lacking in many areas?

I think it's you who is focused on the negative. How many people have posted positive comments about the new edition? And you've chosen to jump on one guy who expresses some concern. Try focusing on the money that you'll get from the customers. If someone's paying money, they have a right to question or even complain.

 

You're welcome to ask questions -- but they're likely to go unanswered, as those individuals who are privy to the entirety of the new rules are hesitant to expand upon things that Steve has said (they're under somewhat strict orders not to divulge information).

 

These are "teaser" previews. There will be many unanswered questions regarding them. That's kinda the point. Your focusing on the negative in the absence of other information does absolutely nothing to help anybody and is (quite frankly) frustrating in the extreme to those of us who have read the new rules and who have stated (multiple times) in this thread that they work quite well and allow for a much expanded (NOT diminished) range of effects that you can simulate.

There's that attitude again. "We're changing the system, and people are worried about it. They should just trust us even though we haven't answered their questions."

 

Yes, we understand that these are "teaser" previews. We understand that you can't tell us everything. Would it have been difficult to say to prestidigitator something to the effect of "Not to worry! There will be a very simple and straightforward way to build a Force Wall-style Barrier, but we can't tell you what it is yet."?

 

It is the customer's ego that should be stroked. That's the way customer-supplier relations work in every other industry.

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

And you were absolutely right to be annoyed. I keep seeing this attitude from the SETAC folks that says' date=' "We know stuff we're not telling you, but just trust us."[/quote']

 

It isn't "we know stuff we're not telling you" it is "we know stuff we are not allowed to tell you".

 

There's that attitude again. "We're changing the system' date=' and people are worried about it. They should just trust us even though we haven't answered their questions."[/quote']

 

Well, as far is it applies to SETAC members, we can't answer any of the questions. Steve gets to reveal exactly as much and as little as he wants in these Showcases. We aren't allowed to reveal any more than he does.

 

As it applies to Hero, Steve has decided how much he is willing to share about each thing that he is sharing. Had he any interest in giving further details he would have.

 

Yes' date=' we understand that these are "teaser" previews. We understand that you can't tell us everything. Would it have been difficult to say to prestidigitator something to the effect of "Not to worry! There will be a very simple and straightforward way to build a Force Wall-style Barrier, but we can't tell you what it is yet."?[/quote']

 

And that basic response was also given. Given in fact before Dan posted his reply.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Any rule in any new version of any game ever written can be added via house rules to a previous version of the rules. Noting that a new rule can just be added via house rules to the existing version without having to pay for the new version is pretty pointless.

 

Exactly. At the extreme,why buy a game system at all? Just make your own - it's all house rules.

 

It isn't "we know stuff we're not telling you" it is "we know stuff we are not allowed to tell you".

 

I think there's also an assumption we know a lot more than we do. Steve chose to share certain issues he was grappling with and wanted outside opinions on. I suspect he has made a lot of other changes that he did not choose to share with SETAC because he did not need outside opinions to make his decisions.

 

Some of the items in Steve's sneak peak this week were certainly new to me. Archermoo, did I just miss some of these in the email flurry, or were some of the changes also new to you?

 

TO CLARIFY: SETAC does not have an advance copy of the 6th Ed rules. [Or I don't - maybe some of those OTHER guys!]

[Beast]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

For me handing out partial information is the best way for others to take what is shown the wrong way(how can they know better)

 

what should have been done ,was 1 total item should have been shown(Barriers,area effects,a new power or a radically changed one)

Like the character sheet(with the costs of each stat

the whole writeup of 1 power

with that you can have an informed discussion

it is kinda moot now as the PDF will be on sale at the Con in 10 days

 

or it could have gone

you'll see it when we have it ready for sale

 

 

 

 

It isn't "we know stuff we're not telling you" it is "we know stuff we are not allowed to tell you".

 

 

 

Well, as far is it applies to SETAC members, we can't answer any of the questions. Steve gets to reveal exactly as much and as little as he wants in these Showcases. We aren't allowed to reveal any more than he does.

 

As it applies to Hero, Steve has decided how much he is willing to share about each thing that he is sharing. Had he any interest in giving further details he would have.

 

 

 

And that basic response was also given. Given in fact before Dan posted his reply.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

The problem with releasing the whole write-up/what-have-you is that Steve is in the business of selling the rules, not giving them away.

 

He's trying to entice people to buy and check out the entirety of it for themselves.

 

it's a basic principle of advertising.

 

And the only person I know who has an advanced copy of the 6E Rules is the one who is doing the Character Pack/Math Check for Steve. And it's not me before anyone asks - I don't have the rules either. I'm looking forward to some surprises.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Only on our boards can a free preview make so many people upset. C'mon, people, it's Shark Week! Lighten up! dw

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

This is the internet... I thought if we didn't overreact we'd be doing it wrong.

 

 

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Only on our boards can a free preview make so many people upset. C'mon' date=' people, it's Shark Week! Lighten up! dw[/quote']

 

Mmmm...sharks....

[Vondy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Only on our boards can a free preview make so many people upset. C'mon' date=' people, it's Shark Week! Lighten up! dw[/quote']

 

Its a sign that people care. Better than total indifference, right?

 

...Shark Week?

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Its a sign that people care. Better than total indifference, right?

 

...Shark Week?

 

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/sharkweek/sharkweek.html

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

Some of the items in Steve's sneak peak this week were certainly new to me. Archermoo, did I just miss some of these in the email flurry, or were some of the changes also new to you?

 

The Resistant Protection Power, the Resistant Advantage, and Barrier were all talked about in SETAC.

 

If Penetrative was discussed I don't remember it.

[Beast]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

I'm not talking about the whole rule set

I'm talking about 1 rule like Barriers or Area effects

think more in the vein of a demo to show us how that rule works as a whole

bits and pieces do not give use enough info to make an informed statements

 

Doing 1 a week would have given us 6 rules hardly the whole book unless there are only 6 changes with this new addition

 

 

 

 

The problem with releasing the whole write-up/what-have-you is that Steve is in the business of selling the rules, not giving them away.

 

He's trying to entice people to buy and check out the entirety of it for themselves.

 

it's a basic principle of advertising.

 

And the only person I know who has an advanced copy of the 6E Rules is the one who is doing the Character Pack/Math Check for Steve. And it's not me before anyone asks - I don't have the rules either. I'm looking forward to some surprises.

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

I'm not talking about the whole rule set

I'm talking about 1 rule like Barriers or Area effects

think more in the vein of a demo to show us how that rule works as a whole

bits and pieces do not give use enough info to make an informed statements

 

Doing 1 a week would have given us 6 rules hardly the whole book unless there are only 6 changes with this new addition

 

Well, we got the entirety of Penetrative this week.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

The Resistant Protection Power, the Resistant Advantage, and Barrier were all talked about in SETAC.

 

If Penetrative was discussed I don't remember it.

 

Penetrative was touched on. Really briefly, IIRC.

[Beast]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #6: Defense Powers

 

great now we can go hog wild and all the info is there so can make informed statements

 

Well' date=' we got the entirety of Penetrative this week. [/quote']