Harbinger of Justice

[Yansuf]

Can anyone tell me where the Harbinger's write up is?

I have his 4th edition, but for 5ER I have looked through Dark Champions and Hudson City and cannot find it. Did I miss it, or is it in another book?

Thank you.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Its in the back of the Hudson City book.

 

Honestly, though, your probably better off using his 4e version, with a few modifications ( Combat Luck, VPP no longer cosmic ). As much as I like high powered heroes ( well, "hero" in this case ), the 5e version is grotesquely overpowered in some ways, while drastically underpowered in others. To note in particular, the combination of Ranged Martial Arts plus Deadly Strike ( Ranged ) plus Targeting Skill Levels plus a 20mm cannon that pretends its a handgun, he basically kills everything that could conceivably exist in his genre the first time he gets a hit. Hell, IIRC, he has strong odds of soloing Dr Destroyer if he gets initiative and attacks first.

[DusterBoy]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

What exactly is the Harbinger's power, anyway? I think I saw mention of him being able to teleport guns to himself? Essentially he strikes me as Steve Long's version of the Punisher, who was never one of my favourite characters.

[JmOz]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

What exactly is the Harbinger's power' date=' anyway? I think I saw mention of him being able to teleport guns to himself? Essentially he strikes me as Steve Long's version of the Punisher, who was never one of my favourite characters.[/quote']

 

It was SL's PC that was a punisher like character, his 4th edition write up had a TP Harness that allowed him to summon basicaly any weapon to his hands, this was droped, thank god...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

What exactly is the Harbinger's power' date=' anyway? I think I saw mention of him being able to teleport guns to himself? Essentially he strikes me as Steve Long's version of the Punisher, who was never one of my favourite characters.[/quote']

 

He's more or less the Punisher's attitudes and methods, with the Batman's level of physical and intellectual competence.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Hudson City p225

 

He has no "powers" because he is not a character that belongs in a campaign with superpowers - even low level ones.

 

He does have a good heaping dose of Super-Skills and a very large Equipment Pool to carry a bunch of guns around with. I seriously doubt he could solo Dr. Destroyer.

[Kharis2000]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

I've got to agree with Ghost Angel. The Harbinger is pretty darned terrifying to just about anyone in the genre that he lives and works in, but he is *not* in Destroyer's range of power.

 

I did have to demonstrate to players a few years back why there were still criminals in Hudson City (they having read his entry and assumed that he would have just killed the all): because he can't be everywhere at once. Based on the material dating back to 4th edition we have to look at, Ol' Harby spends something like 95% of his time running around different disguises gathering information so he knows *when* and *where* he needs to show up and shoot people.

[DusterBoy]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Yeah and in Champions Universe on the entry for Hudson City it says that people with overt superpowers avoided/weren't allowed/whatever into Hudson City, so the Harbinger can't have superpowers - especially a cheese monkey TP harness that allows him to summon guns to himself (spell that B-R-O-K-E-N).

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

First off,

 

I want to say up front that like most folks, I really didn't care for the character. But I can't say he was "broken." The TP harness can be just as easily SFX for a Power Pool that doesn't require a "change in the base" limitation or even some kind of game-raping "summon." Granted, either of those would technically be super powers, making him wrong for a "no powers" campaign, but he's not broken, exactly.

 

Just really, really munchkined.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Hudson City p225

 

He has no "powers" because he is not a character that belongs in a campaign with superpowers - even low level ones.

 

He does have a good heaping dose of Super-Skills and a very large Equipment Pool to carry a bunch of guns around with. I seriously doubt he could solo Dr. Destroyer.

 

Solo under normal circumstances, no. However, try running the numbers of what his 5e version could do with a called shot to Dr D's head.

[Yansuf]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Hudson City p225

 

He has no "powers" because he is not a character that belongs in a campaign with superpowers - even low level ones.

 

He does have a good heaping dose of Super-Skills and a very large Equipment Pool to carry a bunch of guns around with. I seriously doubt he could solo Dr. Destroyer.

 

But in 4th edition it wasn't explicitly said that supers didn't come to Hudson City.

In fact, in one of the sidebars it had Harbinger seeing one of the Champions (I think it was Quantum) flying overhead.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

First - the 5th Ed doesn't have a VPP for teleporting guns - so it's a non-issue. B-ing about it here and now is pointless. It got removed, move on. Spilt milk and all that. Don't own 4th Ed. Hudson City, don't care about it to be dead perfectly honest.

 

Solo under normal circumstances' date=' no. However, try running the numbers of what his 5e version could do with a called shot to Dr D's head.[/quote']

 

Harbinger vs Dr. Destroyer.

 

As a note on Rules, the Hit Location BodyX is applied AFTER defenses, the StunX BEFORE defenses. This is important.

 

Harbinger Offense: 3D6+2. Let's add in that +8 DCs from his best Range Martia Attack just for kicks. That's +4 DCs in KAs, so a 1D6+1. 4D6+3, just using straight adding. He has a Penetrating and Armor Piercing version both. But there is that +2 Stun Multiplier.

 

Average Body: 17. Maximum Body: 27.

Called Shot To Head Stun: x7 Head Shot; Average 119 (OK, that's impressive); Maximum 189 (hoo boy).

 

Dr. Destroyer Defense:

40 Resistant Hardened PD (so much for that Armor Piercing or Penetrating. dang.)

50% Resistant Damage Reduction.

15 rPD Force Wall.

 

We'll assume that D's Force Wall isn't up for the first exercise. Let's watch:

 

17 Body, bounces like it wasn't even there. Total after BodyX: 0.

119 Stun - 40 = 79 Stun. x50% Damage Reduction = 40 Stun (we rounded up, just to give Harby a chance).

 

End Result: Dr. Destroyer has a CON of 55. Dr. Destroyer IS NOT STUNNED. Harbinger becomes a greasy smear next.

 

Let's do that again and see what happens when Harbinger gets really lucky on that Damage Roll:

 

Body: 27. Nothing Happens there, again.

Stun: 189 - 40 = 149 * .5 = 75 Stun (again, in Harby's favor).

 

Congrat's he Stunned Dr. Destroyer. With a lucky called shot to the head.

(FYI the minimum damage Harbinger needs to do to Stun Dr. D is 22 Body. Very close to a Maximum Roll).

 

But Wait! There's More! Shoot now and we throw in this free Force Wall!!

 

15 PD off the top! then you do all that Head Shot math.

 

Average Body Roll: 17 - 15 = 2 Body! An Amazing 14 Stun! nothing happens.

Maximum Body Roll: 27 - 15 = 12 Body. See Above.

 

Just to let you know, Steve Long set up a promotional stunt at a convention where he played Dr. Destroyer and the Players got to play all the members of Eurostar. Steve's goal was to KILL one member of Eurostar PER PHASE. He almost succeeded, one target took two hits.

 

5th Edition Harbinger cannot hurt 5th Edition Dr. Destroyer even with a Head Shot unless he rolls amazingly massively well. Once Dr. Destroyer figures out which annoying peon shot him with a piece of lead he smears them. Even Harbinger Of Justice.

[Steve Long]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Steve's goal was to KILL one member of Eurostar PER PHASE. He almost succeeded, one target took two hits.

 

I had some help from one of the players, who "conveniently" fired off a shot at me that did basically nothing to me but killed or KO'd a couple of his teammates. I take full credit for this even though a Psychological Complication is really to blame. After all, I'm the one who created that hero and gave him that Complication in the first place. It was all part of my Fiendish Plan.

 

But yeah, I was basically picking people off like flies. Good times, good times.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

What I like about the Harbinger?

 

That bada** Dark Champions cover. The moment I saw that cover I said "That's exactly what I've been dying to play!"

[DusterBoy]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

What I like about the Harbinger?

 

That bada** Dark Champions cover. The moment I saw that cover I said "That's exactly what I've been dying to play!"

 

Nah. He's standing up, silhouetting himself against the roof of the building he's on. He should be lying down with a sniper scope, probably with an IR-screeening ghillie suit/cloak on.

 

That's the way I'd do it. And I wouldn't try to shoot anyone whilst falling through the air either. I'd use detcord to breach the skylight, post in electronic stun devices to disorientate the people inside and then rope down using the time I'd brought myself. Naturally, my harness would have a quick-release catch on it. My weapon of choice? Twin suppressed H&K MP7A2s with 40rd mags. One in each hand.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Eh. Unless time is of the essence, I'd just pump CO gas into the room until the perps died of asphyxiation. No fuss, no mess.

 

 

What?

[Manic Typist]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Nah. He's standing up, silhouetting himself against the roof of the building he's on. He should be lying down with a sniper scope, probably with an IR-screeening ghillie suit/cloak on.

 

That's the way I'd do it. And I wouldn't try to shoot anyone whilst falling through the air either. I'd use detcord to breach the skylight, post in electronic stun devices to disorientate the people inside and then rope down using the time I'd brought myself. Naturally, my harness would have a quick-release catch on it. My weapon of choice? Twin suppressed H&K MP7A2s with 40rd mags. One in each hand.

 

You and I are talking about different covers, though yours sounds close to a plagarization of the one I'm looking at.

 

Harbinger's just breached through the window, and is walking through the room executing people dual wielding two hand cannons that MIGHT be Desert Eagles. I'm not a gun expert, so please don't quote me on that. It looks like he just came off a quick release harness too.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

IIRC DusterBoy's talking about 4E Dark Champions. Manic Typist referred to 5E DC.

 

Another nice touch on the 5E cover is that Harbinger's costume is all black, unlike the brown and blue from 4E. Both more practical and more ominous.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

First - the 5th Ed doesn't have a VPP for teleporting guns - so it's a non-issue. B-ing about it here and now is pointless. It got removed, move on. Spilt milk and all that. Don't own 4th Ed. Hudson City, don't care about it to be dead perfectly honest.

 

 

 

Harbinger vs Dr. Destroyer.

 

As a note on Rules, the Hit Location BodyX is applied AFTER defenses, the StunX BEFORE defenses. This is important.

 

Harbinger Offense: 3D6+2. Let's add in that +8 DCs from his best Range Martia Attack just for kicks. That's +4 DCs in KAs, so a 1D6+1. 4D6+3, just using straight adding. He has a Penetrating and Armor Piercing version both. But there is that +2 Stun Multiplier.

 

Average Body: 17. Maximum Body: 27.

Called Shot To Head Stun: x7 Head Shot; Average 119 (OK, that's impressive); Maximum 189 (hoo boy).

 

Dr. Destroyer Defense:

40 Resistant Hardened PD (so much for that Armor Piercing or Penetrating. dang.)

50% Resistant Damage Reduction.

15 rPD Force Wall.

 

We'll assume that D's Force Wall isn't up for the first exercise. Let's watch:

 

17 Body, bounces like it wasn't even there. Total after BodyX: 0.

119 Stun - 40 = 79 Stun. x50% Damage Reduction = 40 Stun (we rounded up, just to give Harby a chance).

 

End Result: Dr. Destroyer has a CON of 55. Dr. Destroyer IS NOT STUNNED. Harbinger becomes a greasy smear next.

 

Let's do that again and see what happens when Harbinger gets really lucky on that Damage Roll:

 

Body: 27. Nothing Happens there, again.

Stun: 189 - 40 = 149 * .5 = 75 Stun (again, in Harby's favor).

 

Congrat's he Stunned Dr. Destroyer. With a lucky called shot to the head.

(FYI the minimum damage Harbinger needs to do to Stun Dr. D is 22 Body. Very close to a Maximum Roll).

 

But Wait! There's More! Shoot now and we throw in this free Force Wall!!

 

15 PD off the top! then you do all that Head Shot math.

 

Average Body Roll: 17 - 15 = 2 Body! An Amazing 14 Stun! nothing happens.

Maximum Body Roll: 27 - 15 = 12 Body. See Above.

 

Just to let you know, Steve Long set up a promotional stunt at a convention where he played Dr. Destroyer and the Players got to play all the members of Eurostar. Steve's goal was to KILL one member of Eurostar PER PHASE. He almost succeeded, one target took two hits.

 

5th Edition Harbinger cannot hurt 5th Edition Dr. Destroyer even with a Head Shot unless he rolls amazingly massively well. Once Dr. Destroyer figures out which annoying peon shot him with a piece of lead he smears them. Even Harbinger Of Justice.

 

You forgot two things:

 

1. Dr D's armor is, IIRC, only Hardened one time. That means either the AP or the Pen still gets through.

 

2. More importantly, you forgot the Deadly Strike ( Ranged ), which adds an extra +2d6 KA ( or +6 DC, depending on how you interp it )

[ghost-angel]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

1. NO - Harbingers bullets are Armor Piercing OR Penetrating. Not both. He has a clip of each. I should have been more clear on that.

 

2. Harbinger's most deadly attack is the Offensive Shot which is Weapon + 8 DCs. Which I added in. Martial DCs applied to Killing Attacks are HALVED. Giving him a total of +4 DCs of actual Damage, or an additional 1D6+1. There is nothing labeled "deadly strike"

 

So I didn't forget anything and I added damage correctly.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

There is nothing labeled "deadly strike"

Not to be contrary, but Hudson City page 226 does have a +2d6 Killing Deadly blow. Well two of them in fact. One for HtH and one for Ranged. I have the PDF version if that helps.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Well... I'll be fragged. Stupid long write-ups. I'll eat my shoe after I do me some more math.

 

Let's see... one big gun, 3D6+2, 2D6 Deadly Blow, 1D6+1 Ranged Martial Art.

6D6+3 RKA.

 

Sans Force Wall.

Average = 24 Body. OK, nothing changed on an average roll for Body.

Stun = 64. Stuns Dr. Destroyer though.

 

Max = 39 Body. Still no Body Damage.

Stun = 116 Stun. Knocked Out. Well, lucky shot Mr H.

 

With that pesky Force Wall.

Average 24 - 15 Body = 9 Body & 63 Stun. Nada.

Maximum = 39 - 15 Body = 24 Body & 168 Stun. Stunned.

 

So, a really good roll will cause some serious Stun Damage, but Harbinger hasn't a hope of causing Body Damage to Dr. D - he can't take him, but he can knock him around with some good rolls.

 

Now, I have a shoe to eat for not only missing an aspect, but missing it twice.

[Greywind]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Boil it first. I understand it makes it softer.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Why is the Max STUN with the Forcewall higher than the Max STUN without?

[JmOz]

Re: Harbinger of Justice

 

Well... I'll be fragged. Stupid long write-ups. I'll eat my shoe after I do me some more math.

 

Let's see... one big gun, 3D6+2, 2D6 Deadly Blow, 1D6+1 Ranged Martial Art.

6D6+3 RKA.

 

Sans Force Wall.

Average = 24 Body. OK, nothing changed on an average roll for Body.

Stun = 64. Stuns Dr. Destroyer though.

 

Max = 39 Body. Still no Body Damage.

Stun = 116 Stun. Knocked Out. Well, lucky shot Mr H.

 

With that pesky Force Wall.

Average 24 - 15 Body = 9 Body & 63 Stun. Nada.

Maximum = 39 - 15 Body = 24 Body & 168 Stun. Stunned.

 

So, a really good roll will cause some serious Stun Damage, but Harbinger hasn't a hope of causing Body Damage to Dr. D - he can't take him, but he can knock him around with some good rolls.

 

Now, I have a shoe to eat for not only missing an aspect, but missing it twice.

 

Once Dr D is down could not HoJ do a coup de gras and end it all for the Dr?

 

And while most heroes would not do such a cowardly act, well I can definatly see HoJ do it