Nudity for your benefit

[Sean Waters]

What has always bugged me about his Naked Advantage is that it does not reflect utility in cost. A Naked AoE advantage on an EB costs the same as having the advantage on the EB, but is more useful – you can decide not to use it. Moreover a single NA can apply to several powers (say all attack powers) if appropriate and the GM says it is OK – all for the same cost, potentially – but that cost depends on overall build. Then there is that weird thing with NAs costing END whether or not the base power does.

So, what if we take the advantage and apply another advantage to make it naked?

Naked Advantage Advantage*

You can apply this advantage to the point cost of an advantage to be able to switch it off. The cost depends on the number of powers you can affect with the naked advantage.

Calculate the value of the naked advantage (Base power x Advantage)

Apply an advantage to that cost as follows:

Applies to one power: +1/4

Applies to two powers: +1/2

Applies to four powers: +3/4

Applies to eight powers: +1

Applies to sixteen powers: +1 ¼

Applies to any power: + 1 ½

Finally apply any limitations that would apply to ALL the powers the NA could affect to the cost of the NA.

Example 1:

NA (AoE 8m Radius +1/2) on a 60 point power: 30 points base One power only (+1/4): 37 points

Example 2:

NA (AoE 8m Radius +1/2) on a 60 point power with a –1/2 limitation (OIF): 30 points base One power only (+1/4): 37 points, -1/2 limitation: 25 points

Example 3:

NA (AoE 8m Radius +1/2) on a 60 point power: 30 points base three powers in a MP (+3/4): 52 points

Example 4:

NA (Autofire on all guns (OAF) +1/2) up to 30 points: 15 point base, +1 ½ advantage (all powers): 37 points –1 (for OAF): 18 points

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

*Name may need some work

[Dino]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

We used to require that naked advantages have the Variable Special Effects (+1/2) advantage applied to them, for those very reasons.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

NPA's are a powerful design tool, gaining leverage via abstraction. And like anything powerful they require more GM attention than plain vanilla effects.

 

Generally speaking, IMO, NPA's should typically have some other modifier on the advantage itself that isn't also on the base power(s) they are intended to modify. If they don't then I consider it a flag to press the player real hard to justify their NPA via concept. If they can make a case for having the NPA at all, I'll generally consult them into some modifier on it, such as Extra Time or a RSR: Power Skill, etc.

[Markdoc]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

I agree with Sean here.

 

NPAs are a very useful tool, but they require very careful watching by the GM. However, rather than Sean's suggestion, I'd look at what it can be applied to and allow slightly broader grouping. After all, charging +1/4 for an NPA that applies to only one power seems a bit unfair: an advantage applied to only one power costs ... +0 over the advantage cost.

 

It only becomes an NPA if applied to more than one power, no?

 

With that in mind, I'd suggest:

Applies to a tight group of powers: +1/4

Applies to closely related powers: +1/2

Applies to a loose related powers: +3/4

Applies to any power: + 1

 

Very tight would (for example) be something like "Fire blasts" allowing the NPA to be applied to EB or RKA with fire as a special effect. Closely related and loosely related could be things like "Fire attacks" (add Flash into the mix, for example or HKA) and "Fire powers" respectively.

For a numeric approach 2-3 potential applications equals "tight", 4-6 "close" and more than that "loose, when restricted to a specific power set (like for example "any attack") or special effect.

 

cheers, Mark

[prestidigitator]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

Remember that Naked Advantages have to cover the total Active Points of the power they apply to as well, not just the Base Cost. Meaning they effectively make other Advantages applied (directly) to the power more expensive.

[Ice9]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

That's true - in an extreme case, compare:

 

90 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body

45 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle.

 

105 - Neutron Rifle w/ Scope - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, No Range Penalty

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

That's true - in an extreme case, compare:

 

90 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body

45 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle.

 

105 - Neutron Rifle w/ Scope - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, No Range Penalty

 

Not true any more under 6e if the scope is JUST for the Neutron Rifle (assuming I've read it right), but also...

 

90 - Proton Rifle - 6d6 RKA

45 - Spreader - 8m radius AoE on Neutron Rifle

 

135 - Proton Rifle with Spreader - 6d6 RKA with 8m radius AoE

 

With my example you get the choice of whether to use it as a single target or AoE attack - and it costs the same. That is why I'm suggesting quite a radical re-think of NAs.

[Armitage]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

Not true any more under 6e if the scope is JUST for the Neutron Rifle (assuming I've read it right)

 

It wasn't true for 5th Edition either. The cost differed based on whether the Naked Advantage applied to a group of Powers or a single Power.

 

Group Naked Advantages based the cost on the Active Points of the affected Powers.

...the character defines the maximum Active Points the Advantage can apply to...The character "applies" the Naked Advantage to the defined Active Point total, then subtracts the defined Active Point total to determine the Naked Advantage's cost.

 

Single Power Naked Advantages were calculated using the Base Points of the Power.

...recalculate the cost of the base Power as if it normally had the Naked Advantage. After you have that new cost, subtract the cost of the base power to determine the cost of the Naked Advantage.

 

The Neutron Rifle with the Smart Scope would be:

90 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body

15 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle.

 

No Range Penalty would only be applied to the 30 base points of the KA. It would only be 45 points if it applied to several Powers of up to 90 Active Points.

 

The thing that was often forgotten about Single Power Naked Advantages, including by a few writers, is:

All Advantages and Limitations applicable to the base power automatically apply to and/or function with the Naked Advantage, but do not alter its cost.

 

40 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, OAF, 12 c.

15 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle.

Total: 55 points.

 

47 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, No Range Penalty, OAF, 12 c.

 

So it actually costs 8 points extra to have the ability to turn off No Range Penalty.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

Well Sean,

 

I don't have anything newer that Fred (I don't even have re-Fred), so rather than offering, I'm asking. No Sixth Edition to consult, after all.

 

Have Naked Advantages changed in some significant way since 5th?

 

If not, I think we're still going to stick with "Switchable" ( discussed here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60195&highlight=switchable )

as opposed to going with Naked Advantages.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

That's true - in an extreme case, compare:

 

90 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body

45 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle.

 

105 - Neutron Rifle w/ Scope - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, No Range Penalty

 

Not true any more under 6e if the scope is JUST for the Neutron Rifle (assuming I've read it right), but also...

 

90 - Proton Rifle - 6d6 RKA

45 - Spreader - 8m radius AoE on Neutron Rifle

 

135 - Proton Rifle with Spreader - 6d6 RKA with 8m radius AoE

 

With my example you get the choice of whether to use it as a single target or AoE attack - and it costs the same. That is why I'm suggesting quite a radical re-think of NAs.

 

Sean, what about when the Naked Advantage is useable on a power that has it's own Advantages? Your example applies the NA to an un-Advantaged power, meaning your cost and 5ER's cost would thus be the same.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

It wasn't true for 5th Edition either. The cost differed based on whether the Naked Advantage applied to a group of Powers or a single Power.

 

Group Naked Advantages based the cost on the Active Points of the affected Powers.

 

 

Single Power Naked Advantages were calculated using the Base Points of the Power.

 

 

The Neutron Rifle with the Smart Scope would be:

90 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body

15 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle.

 

No Range Penalty would only be applied to the 30 base points of the KA. It would only be 45 points if it applied to several Powers of up to 90 Active Points.

 

The thing that was often forgotten about Single Power Naked Advantages, including by a few writers, is:

 

 

40 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, OAF, 12 c.

15 - Smart Scope - No Range Penalty on Neutron Rifle.

Total: 55 points.

 

47 - Neutron Rifle - 2d6 RKA, NND, Does Body, No Range Penalty, OAF, 12 c.

 

So it actually costs 8 points extra to have the ability to turn off No Range Penalty.

 

I would presume that if it were a Neutron/Proton/Electron Rifle built as a Multipower, a Smart Scope Naked Advantage for it would have to be purchased as a Group Naked Advantage...

[Vondy]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

I'm very glad this didn't start with an anecdote about dog walking. Sean walking his dog in the nude would have been too traumatic.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

I'm very glad this didn't start with an anecdote about dog walking. Sean walking his dog in the nude would have been too traumatic.

 

Very bracing though

[JmOz]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

ANYWAYS, any conversation on this issue I think has to at least consider how Multipowers work

 

The cost for having an advantaged version and a non advantaged version tends to be on the low side

 

For instance, using the neutron rifle setting above

 

135 Neutron Rifle MP

13 u with spreader

9u W/O Spreader

 

 

that is only a cost of 22 points, less than a +1/4 advantage on the main power

 

 

Not saying anyone is wrong, but that it is at least worth factorin into the cost arguments

[Lucius]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

I'm very glad this didn't start with an anecdote about dog walking. Sean walking his dog in the nude would have been too traumatic.

 

I don't know about you, but where I come from, people seldom dress their dogs to take them walking.

 

In fact, I suspect most people do not have clothes for their dogs at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What does a palindromedary have to hide?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Nudity for your benefit

 

I don't know about you, but where I come from, people seldom dress their dogs to take them walking.

 

In fact, I suspect most people do not have clothes for their dogs at all.

 

Most dogs will at least wear a collar. Also, dogs with short fur need a sweater in cold weather to keep from getting chilled.