CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

A couple of things to add to my earlier post... mostly on the topic of Superhero Teams.

 

One is the discussion of forming a team under the "trope motivations" section. Sure, superheroes tend to form teams so they can handle together what they wouldn't be able to handle separately. But what sorts of problems?

 

What sorts of events help bring teams together? Does one of them just put an advertisement in the Superhero Times? Or maybe that one is a master psychic or master detective, and contacts each of the others separately. Does some "master patron" who knows about them all call them together for a coming crisis? Everyone showing up to help deal with the same crisis at the same time (such as Grond on the rampage, or a crashed alien ship) is one other natural possibility. This is covered somewhat in earlier editions, but in Champions more than any other Hero System genre I find it hard to come up with that First Adventure.

 

A bit more on "Theme Teams" would be good, too. A Theme Team, like the X-Men, can make a good lever for bringing the PCs together at the start. A group of cyborgs who were all built (or enhanced) by the same sponsoring corporation is another possibility. Allen Varney's Mystic Masters showed quite well how it could be done with mystic heroes. The Theme Team is almost (but not quite, IMO) a sub-genre unto itself, with its own tropes and traditions.

 

There's also the concept of a "superhero community" (what's generally been termed the Superhero World in Champions products), where heroes can keep in touch, learn from each other, and share experiences. It's worth noting that the DCU and MU have differently-textured superhero communities, and other superhero settings likely have their own textures as well. How much information sharing, technology sharing, and general trust is there between members of different teams? For example, in the Champions Universe, if my team's having trouble with a supernatural curse, how accessible would Witchcraft be to help analyze the problem?

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

A little more on Character Schticks in the Team section would be nice, more on How to build teams that work together, expand on the information already there. How to overlap Schticks so there's a Primary and Secondary character of some types. This goes along with mixing Archetypes a bit.

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to second the idea of how to present a character who can be challenged by variable power levels.

[bubba smith]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I like. You could definitely have Superheroic settings that differ significantly from the primary genre tropes of the superhero genre.

 

 

 

Do. Not. Want.

 

A "non supers" group (such as super-agents, SpecOps, etc.) in a superhero world, sure. But Heroic and Superheroic are oil and water - they don't mix. At all. That Way Lies Madness*.

 

*"Madness" = "hard game mechanical boundary line between non-super and super"

as in martial arts heroes?

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I will be yet another person who would like to see mini-campaigns because I thought that they were an excellent idea to fill up PAH

 

There you've hit the nail on the head. In PAH and UFH, the mini-settings were necessary to round out the book.

 

In Champions, the problem is going to be getting everything I already have planned into the book in an acceptable number of pages. Adding 120 pages of mini-settings simply isn't feasible. And if I cut them down to fit, all I'll get for my troubles is complaints that they're not properly developed.

 

So while this is a good idea, it's probably an outside chance at best.

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Perhaps, instead of mini-campaigns, a few sample characters built around differing parameters.

 

Or, as someone else said, some sample characters built at each of the suggested Superheroic Point Totals from the Core Rules. Maybe 1-2 each.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Perhaps, instead of mini-campaigns, a few sample characters built around differing parameters.

 

Or, as someone else said, some sample characters built at each of the suggested Superheroic Point Totals from the Core Rules. Maybe 1-2 each.

 

I like the idea of variable power level heroes. Teen, Champions, up to Galactic. Squeeze a few other possibilities in and you might get some feedback suggesting the alternate Champions settings that would be best received for future development.

[gojira]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Perhaps, instead of mini-campaigns, a few sample characters built around differing parameters.

 

Or, as someone else said, some sample characters built at each of the suggested Superheroic Point Totals from the Core Rules. Maybe 1-2 each.

 

 

I also think mini-settings are a great idea, but I also don't want a huge tome that's tries to hit too many themes and ends up being un-focused. So if Steve thinks he's going to have trouble fitting everything in as-is, then I guess that's the way it is. I do think some example characters with different power levels is a good idea, as GA suggests, but see below for a slightly different take.

 

Perhaps also the mini-USPD could also include power at different levels; specifically aimed at a low-powered character, a very high powered character and a cosmically powered character. That should take some of the sting out of re-fitting a character with new powers if you just choose the next one or two down the list. The trick here will be actually matching each of the powers to a specific AP cap appropriate for the genre. If the power doesn't match exactly, a brief explanation of why would be in order. E.g., "This is as close as you can get without going over the AP cap." or "Even this goes over the AP cap, in Steve's GM opinion, this power is appropriate for the genre and doesn't unbalance a character."

 

In other worlds, some hand-holding for the neophyte.

 

 

Speaking of hand-holding, there's some discussion on kit-bashing in the back of Conquerors, Killers and Crooks. "How to Adapt Villains to Your Game." It's fairly short and including a variation in Champions 6e might help out those who are having troubles with some of the creation mechanics. Include an example of how to up-power and down-power a different hero, using the pick-lists provided in the min-USPD, should at least quell some of the "it's too hard" angst.

 

The results of the "how to kit bash" chapter could naturally lead to the example characters with different power levels that GA was talking about. If you have more than just a couple examples then a much briefer discussion of how the additional characters were built could be included with each one.

 

My 2 super bucks.

 

 

Edit: and aside from minor tweaks like the above, your original post sounds spot on target, Steve. I think you have the right idea and I certainly don't see any major issues.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

There you've hit the nail on the head. In PAH and UFH, the mini-settings were necessary to round out the book.

 

In Champions, the problem is going to be getting everything I already have planned into the book in an acceptable number of pages. Adding 120 pages of mini-settings simply isn't feasible. And if I cut them down to fit, all I'll get for my troubles is complaints that they're not properly developed.

 

So while this is a good idea, it's probably an outside chance at best.

 

Yes, I already suspected that mini-settings wouldn't fit with everything else the genre book has to cover.

 

Hmm... not an appropriate subject for this thread, but perhaps mini-settings could be included in one volume along with generic supers scenarios and plot hooks, and a few short modular adventures -- rather like combining mini-settings with Champions Battlegrounds and Villainy Amok. A general-purpose volume for the supers gamer who wants to develop his own game world, but could use help getting started.

 

I don't want to derail Steve's thread with this, but perhaps the idea could be floated later somewhere else.

[gojira]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't want to derail Steve's thread with this' date=' but perhaps the idea could be floated later somewhere else.[/quote']

 

Yes, maybe even some PDFs, the $3-$5 variety. I think I'd pay that for a mini-setting. If these could be planned out before Champs goes to the printer, then they could be mentioned in the main text, which might spur some sales.

 

"Want to do low power heroes? Download Pulp Champions!, a mini-setting for Champions, only $3 at the Hero Games website!" Etc.

 

Just thinking out loud here...

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

As fodder for another book or PDFs or the like, it's certainly worth thinking about... but let's not derail the thread further. I'll seek input on those ideas if and when the time comes, I promise.

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd be interested in mini-setting PDF's.

 

But anyways, I'm going to try to drop it in light of Steve's comment on the matter.

 

 

Some more thoughts now...

- I wonder if the archetypes can be reaffirmed?

 

I'm saying this because we have seen SAS, M&M, and CoH/V come out since the last edition of Champions, and they each had some different views on Superhero archetypes which could help to make a stronger, better informed presentation of the archetypes than ever before for Champions 6e.

 

- In the Quick Supherhuman generator, what if at least parts of it were presented as Templates that could have possible logical uses in other genres?

 

What I mean by this is that when I look at, say, FBI Agent in DC, I can basically "plug in" the features and say "this character is an FBI agent now."

 

I don't feel like this when I put Sensory Platform or whatever on a character.

 

- The inclusion of the Heroic Action Points rules in the core books makes me think that perhaps each genre book can present...how do I say this... genre specific applications.

 

I am thinking of "Power Stunts" in the case of the Superhero genre.

[PhantomGM2602]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

How about Including powers from the ULtimate Book series into the book and also include some from the USPD I&II if you don't have room for it in the basic book.

[novi]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I, for one, wait to see how you can do this without making it a 700 page book. But you will, somehow.

 

I think I would like more on running at different power levels. Since Galactic Champions 6E is unlikely, this is probably the best place to put it. As well as something for low-powered games, etc.

 

I also feel that the Period section should probably be done differently, likely as a trope section. Instead of just breaking it down by the 4 ages (which doesn't cover the last 10 or 15 years), it might be more useful to throw in a few more setting types, as well as acknowledge that a lot of people are more familiar with superheroes from contexts other than comics. In addition to the four ages, and the kind of flavor they bring, a section on a "people-with-powers" setting, a la Heroes. Explorers of strange realms. Earth's first line of defense. And so on.

 

I don't know if you want to make this just the book about obvious-superheroes-in-spandex, or apply more broadly to all settings with empowered individuals. I can see arguments both ways.

 

Oh, and if there's any space left, maybe a little advice for running different numbers of heroes, from a solo game up through The Legion of Superheroes.

 

Maybe a few more examples of complications, whether in the text or among the sample characters.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Any chance of some 4-page "Sample Worlds" like in Post-Apocalypse Hero or Urban Fantasy Hero? For example:

• A DC-style "Silver Age," in which the superhero has to move the moon across to the other side of the sky in order to preserve his secret ID from his nosy girlfriend,
  
• A 1980s Chris Claremont X-Men "Bronze Age" world, where the heroes fight to protect a world that fears and hates them, with all the soap-opera and romance that entails,
  
• A Marshall Law style "Iron Age" world, where super-powered gangs prey on the weak, and justice only comes from the barrel of a gun...
  

That sort of thing?

 

I agree with my board colleagues on adding sample campaign mini-settings' date=' assuming that was practical. Perhaps just dealing with ones that are less like the current mainstream, with a "For a more modern-Marvel/DC-type world, please see the official Champions Universe line of sourcebooks" caveat. [/quote']

 

I think the teh_bunneh and Lord Liaden have some good ideas here. Mini-campaign settings would work nicely in showing novice (and some veteran) gamers how to handle them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I' date=' for one, wait to see how you can do this without making it a 700 page book. But you will, somehow.[/quote']

 

It's all about Font Size

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

How about Including powers from the ULtimate Book series into the book and also include some from the USPD I&II if you don't have room for it in the basic book.

This would be the soon-to-follow superpowers book.

[Peregrine]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I also feel that the Period section should probably be done differently' date=' likely as a trope section. Instead of just breaking it down by the 4 ages (which doesn't cover the last 10 or 15 years), it might be more useful to throw in a few more setting types, as well as acknowledge that a lot of people are more familiar with superheroes from contexts other than comics. In addition to the four ages, and the kind of flavor they bring, a section on a "people-with-powers" setting, a la [i']Heroes[/i]. Explorers of strange realms. Earth's first line of defense. And so on.

 

As a reference for a different presentation of the genre (i.e. a non "Ages" presentation), check out GURPS Supers for GURPS 4e. Just ignore the mechanics (which aren't included in that section of the text anyway).

 

 

What? I shelf-browsed...

[assault]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Hmm... the Champions need some new members. Bring back Seeker!

 

Australia needs Ninjas!

 

...

 

OK, I've taken my pills...

 

To be honest, I'd love to see the mini-settings. But I guess the needs of the new players have to outweigh the desires of the old timers.

 

Then again... there has to be material on how to set up a campaign. A couple of very brief examples might be appropriate, even though there wouldn't be space for much detail.

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I, for one, wait to see how you can do this without making it a 700 page book. But you will, somehow.

 

I think I would like more on running at different power levels. Since Galactic Champions 6E is unlikely, this is probably the best place to put it. As well as something for low-powered games, etc.

 

I also feel that the Period section should probably be done differently, likely as a trope section. Instead of just breaking it down by the 4 ages (which doesn't cover the last 10 or 15 years), it might be more useful to throw in a few more setting types, as well as acknowledge that a lot of people are more familiar with superheroes from contexts other than comics. In addition to the four ages, and the kind of flavor they bring, a section on a "people-with-powers" setting, a la Heroes. Explorers of strange realms. Earth's first line of defense. And so on.

 

I don't know if you want to make this just the book about obvious-superheroes-in-spandex, or apply more broadly to all settings with empowered individuals. I can see arguments both ways.

 

Oh, and if there's any space left, maybe a little advice for running different numbers of heroes, from a solo game up through The Legion of Superheroes.

 

Maybe a few more examples of complications, whether in the text or among the sample characters.

 

What he said.When I read Champions 5e, I don't feel like there is enough information about each age.I'm pretty sure that each one could have at least a page or two more than what we get in 5e.

[bubba smith]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Hmm... the Champions need some new members. Bring back Seeker!

 

Australia needs Ninjas!

 

...

 

OK, I've taken my pills...

 

To be honest, I'd love to see the mini-settings. But I guess the needs of the new players have to outweigh the desires of the old timers.

 

Then again... there has to be material on how to set up a campaign. A couple of very brief examples might be appropriate, even though there wouldn't be space for much detail.

true that is, but as i understand it seekers creator won't let him be used

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Instead of just breaking it down by the 4 ages (which doesn't cover the last 10 or 15 years)

 

I would disagree with that; I think we're still firmly entrenched in the Iron Age.

 

Nevertheless, I'd be the first to argue that "you can't analyze historical trends while you're living through them." Thus, even if we've gone beyond that, we (or at least I), lack the perspective to write about them properly, so they're not going to be covered regardless.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

How about Including powers from the ULtimate Book series into the book and also include some from the USPD I&II if you don't have room for it in the basic book.

 

I don't mean to sound snarky, but did you even bother to read my initial post? Did you see what I listed as the contents for Chapter Five, the "Champions Sourcebook"?

 

There's not much point in suggesting things that I've already specifically stated I'm hoping to put in the book.

[novi]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would disagree with that; I think we're still firmly entrenched in the Iron Age.

 

Nevertheless, I'd be the first to argue that "you can't analyze historical trends while you're living through them." Thus, even if we've gone beyond that, we (or at least I), lack the perspective to write about them properly, so they're not going to be covered regardless.

 

That would seem to suggest that we are using that term to refer to different things.

 

In that case, perhaps another paragraph at the end of the section about the era of mega-crossovers that we seem to be stuck in.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't think mega-crossovers define an "Age" of comics. I think they're just an example of crappy editorial decisionmaking and marketing departments wielding too much sway over comic book content. Crappy editing and marketing mismanagement are, sadly, evident in every Age of comics, I'm sure.