A Storeowner's First Impression

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Part of the cover is branding. You see that guy in the hex and you will associate it with Hero.

 

You pick up any book, anywhere, and if you see that guy in the hex on the cover, the back cover, the spine... somewhere, you know it's a Hero Product of some nature. It probably doesn't even have to say Hero System on it at that point.

 

So there is that angle to take into account.

[secretID]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I would tell them how for the purchase of just the one book

And you call yourself a salesman?

 

Interesting points, though.

 

I was a new player with 5ER and I liked the plain 2 tone cover then.

Same here. I'm not a fan of the current color scheme. The 5E design said "serious" to me, which was appealing. I understand the need for new colors, but the flashy colors with simple graphics say "lazy" or "cheap" to me, though I know that's not the root.

 

I will not buy a $50+ book based solely on the cover' date=' and if someone does they are probably an idiot (unless they are independently wealthy and can afford those sorts of whimsical purchases).[/quote']

I think we're talking about more subtle things. For better or worse, none of us can say with perfect certainty why we make particular purchases. When shopping brick & mortar, we're all victims of packaging to some degree, even if the message of the packaging is "we're not trying to sucker you with packaging."

 

As a business' date=' I would think it prudent for Hero Games to listen to the views of those marketting its books, such as store owners.[/quote']

Yup. As casualplayer was saying, a handful of opinions from current players is worth nearly nothing.

 

 

For what it's worth, I'm a decent example of one of the OP's points. I hadn't gamed in years, and I went looking for a supers RPG. I remembered the Champions name, and through online investigation, learned that I had to get the Hero rules. I liked that it seemed like a rich, serious system, and I went with it.

 

It went right for the company, but it easily could have gone wrong. If I was shopping in a store, I probably wouldn't have gone near Hero, b/c I was only interested in supers. In fact, if I had come across M&M in my initial research, I probably would have gone that way. To this day, I don't really buy the idea of a universal system - I'd rather have rules very close to Hero, but tweaked to fit supers in particular.

 

 

Anyway - at a minimum, wouldn't it serve the company to survey the people here to find out what brought them in? That's pretty basic marketing, no?

[redwulfe]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

At the time it was just the one book, but I see your point.

 

I think the important part of this discussion is that different people will pick up books for different reasons. Though a book is not sold on its packaging, it is the packaging that gets you to pick up the product and look further into it. It is the pitch. To me Hero sands out from the other books on the shelf which I think is a good thing. Most people either come into a store for one of 4 main purposes:

 

1. They are looking for something specific

2. They are looking for something to fill a subconscious void they they feel is not filled

3. They are coming to game

4. They are coming to browse.

 

Allot of times it is multiples of these reasons. No Marketing strategy is perfect but you try to do some of the following, Get there attention and keep there attention so you can find out what will sell the book to them. I think the cover does catch them, it is different. I do fell that the quality of the product and color interior art is good and engaging, but I agree that I think that the book has nothing to sell itself to the costumer. It wasn't until I filled in that space that the books sold.

 

Getting new players requires us as players running games and doing things to help the game grow. It requires store employees to help sell the games. Unfortunately, some stores are understaffed and do not have the resources in the current economy to be able to do that, so maybe it is up to the fans to help out.

 

I live in NJ and would love to help this store owner sell books. If you are still reading this please PM me and we may be able to help sell you some books, by running some demos and showing people what the Hero system offers.

 

Red

[phookz]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The cover matters... a lot. If it didn't, why would almost every book have cover art? Cover art costs money, money for the artist to produce, money for the printers (no art or solid colors would be cheaper to print). To say the art doesn't matter is naive.

 

I doubt the cover art will be the deciding factor for most of the sales of a book. I suspect it is a rare case where the cover art is the deciding factor. But it can make a difference. A flashy, well done cover can make the difference between someone picking up a book and someone picking up a book next to it on the shelf. It's advertising, and our culture spends a TON of money on advertising, so I think it's fair to say that advertising works. The more people you are able to get to pick up your book and thumb through it the more likely you are to sell that book. Sure, you've got to have good content once you get them there, but if you can't get them to pick up the book in the first place your content isn't going to make any difference.

[phookz]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

As for the price... I don't see what the big deal is. D&D base books are $35 each and you have to buy 3 of them for a total of $105... Hero System is a bargain comparatively at $25 cheaper for the core rules. Even if you are comparing the two book to book... $5 more for a Hero Book! Oooooo! That's gonna break the bank!

 

As for the size... If it daunts some people I can certainly understand that, but it is the price of the versatility the system offers.

 

This isn't really a fair comparison, as you're throwing the Monster Manual into the D&D pool but not the Bestiary in for HERO. So it's $70 for D&D PHB & DMG, as compared to $80 for 6E1 & 6E2 (before anyone cries foul, the $80 is an assumption that the books are purchased in a brick and mortar store since this thread was started from that viewpoint, and I'm assuming you don't get the bundle price in a B&M store, you can get them for only $70 online or $80 with the PDFs thrown in as well, which is a great deal:thumbup:).

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The cover matters... a lot. If it didn't, why would almost every book have cover art? Cover art costs money, money for the artist to produce, money for the printers (no art or solid colors would be cheaper to print). To say the art doesn't matter is naive.

 

I doubt the cover art will be the deciding factor for most of the sales of a book. I suspect it is a rare case where the cover art is the deciding factor. But it can make a difference. A flashy, well done cover can make the difference between someone picking up a book and someone picking up a book next to it on the shelf. It's advertising, and our culture spends a TON of money on advertising, so I think it's fair to say that advertising works. The more people you are able to get to pick up your book and thumb through it the more likely you are to sell that book. Sure, you've got to have good content once you get them there, but if you can't get them to pick up the book in the first place your content isn't going to make any difference.

 

On the other hand, part of advertising is to make your product Different from others. If everyone is product large multi-colored barrages of full art then it's the simple two-tone that stands out in a see of visual cacophony.

 

Reminds me of a series of full billboard ads I've seen around town lately, two notable ones are the local Water Comanies "Use What You Need" campaign where they literally only have a quarter billboard in this garish orange on a massive metal frame with the phrase on it. Certainly stands out amongst every other giant rectangular slab.

 

And Snickers whose recent campaign involved their parallelagram like logo that's on the front of the Snickers Bar package, on a huge white field, with a single word in it (one of them was something like "Snackacoplypse"). And nothing else, not even the name of the candy bar or a company logo.

 

Minimal Advertising Tactics have their place and are also proven to work.

 

 

Also, Darren said at GenCon he hoped to provide stores with the incentive to be able to offer the two books at the Bundle Price should they choose to do so. So theoretically should be able to buy both books in an LGS for 70$. I have no idea if this made it to the street and is possible.

[archermoo]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

This isn't really a fair comparison' date=' as you're throwing the Monster Manual into the D&D pool but not the Bestiary in for HERO. So it's $70 for D&D PHB & DMG, as compared to $80 for 6E1 & 6E2 (before anyone cries foul, the $80 is an assumption that the books are purchased in a brick and mortar store since this thread was started from that viewpoint, and I'm assuming you don't get the bundle price in a B&M store, you can get them for only $70 online or $80 with the PDFs thrown in as well, which is a great deal:thumbup:).[/quote']

 

Of note, the MSRP for the two books together is $69.99. Regardless of where they are sold. Obviously the nice folks at Hero have no way of enforcing that on anyone else, and it isn't printed on the books anywhere. But my understanding is that is still the MSRP for the books as a bundle.

[archermoo]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

You're missing the point that the OP is trying to make. He's a HEROphile and the cover to 6th could be venom-crusted thorns and he would just wear thick gloves while devouring the contents cover to cover over and over. Personally I feel the same way and I'm guessing you feel similarly. But the OP is a store owner and he has to be able to market this book to the newbie and the cover does not help make the sale. It doesn't encourage a pick-up, flip-thru and a take-home.

 

The cover to 6th is elegant and restrained. The source material that HERO System is intended to emulate is rarely either.

 

No, I'm not missing his point. I'm disagreeing that it is accurate. There is a difference.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Its a generic rules system for playing heroic adventure games' date=' with no implementation out of the box. So yes, I think the cover reflects that well. It says "HERO System" prominently. It's main feature is a sort of Vitruvian Man which is classically associated with the blending of art and science, of symmetry, and as an analogy to the workings of the universe (or as Leonardo put it [i']cosmografia del minor mondo[/i]) which is appropriate for a game that purports to allow you to model just about anything you can think of. And as an improvement over 5e it has high-contrast colors that stand out better from a good distance away.

 

Granted, the average gamer might not know much about Leonardo da Vinci or the Vitruvian Man, and the layout folks at HERO who picked the Hex Man logo back in the day might not have actually had it mind either, but that's the thoughts it inspires in me.

 

Without reference to historical landmarks, it could probably simply be stated that the cover gives a good impression of potential. It looks powerful and elegant, while leaving out details for your curious imagination to fill with tantalizing possibilities until you crack the cover.

 

But perhaps it is true we are moving into a world where people don't want to exercise their imaginations or explore new possibilities. Perhaps they want everything to simply be handed to them in final format, and they want to be told how to enjoy it as well. Much like television. Sad.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

This isn't really a fair comparison' date=' as you're throwing the Monster Manual into the D&D pool but not the Bestiary in for HERO. So it's $70 for D&D PHB & DMG, as compared to $80 for 6E1 & 6E2 (before anyone cries foul, the $80 is an assumption that the books are purchased in a brick and mortar store since this thread was started from that viewpoint, and I'm assuming you don't get the bundle price in a B&M store, you can get them for only $70 online or $80 with the PDFs thrown in as well, which is a great deal:thumbup:).[/quote']

 

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure it is completely true anymore, but it used to be that you couldn't do squat with D&D if you didn't have some kind of Monster Manual or Compendium or whatever. The whole game was focused on going up against orcs and goblins and ogres and dragons and minotaurs, yet the "basic rulebooks" offer(ed?) no material on such creatures and no hint as to how to build them yourself.

 

Compare that to Hero. While the Bestiary is nice, anyone who's read through the basic rules can picture how to build "your basic dragon" with Str, Flight, HKA, and an Area of Effect attack of some sort for the breath weapon (besides all the extras you could imagine if you wanted to get into details: size increase, Enhanced Senses, etc.). Also, Hero is a generic system, and in a lot of genres your whole game won't hinge around having a library of monsters at your fingertips. If you're playing Champions, for example, you'll probably be building enemies that look pretty much the same as your protagonists.

 

So no, I don't think it is fair to say you should either include the cost of the Hero System Bestiary or exclude the cost of the D&D Monster Manual. The former is a nice little bonus to your gaming experience, while the latter is absolutely essential.

 

I came into Second Edition AD&D after having played a few games with friends and such. I bought the Players Handbook and DMG (there was no MM evident at the gaming shop when I bought those) and I figured I'd start running some games. Imagine the disappointment (granted I was pretty young) after I read cover-to-cover through both books and realized I hadn't the faintest clue how to run the adventures I had swirling around in my head. When I ran into Hero, on the other hand (when I finally found a copy to buy it was 4E, but I believe the copy I first borrowed from my friend to read might have been 3E), I read the book cover-to-cover and knew I had some work ahead of me, but that I could do absolutely anything, and knew exactly how to do it. Imagine my disappointment when I couldn't find any enthusiastic or even willing players. :-/

[Rapier]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Unfortunately, I don't think Hero is an 'oh that looks neat, I'll take that right home and learn how to play it' kind of system.

 

Hero is to gaming what bridge is to cards. It's incredibly complex and takes some serious effort to get in to.

 

I don't think a flashy shelf presence cover is necessarily that statement to make here. ESPECIALLY since CO has come out, I think it is a valid option to to be able to look down a packed shelf and be able to point and scream "HERO!" Which these books most definitely do. It may not have a pretty dragon or a megavillain on the cover, but you will have no problems finding it.

 

I think it's even possible that it's difference will attract more attention. It is, in my mind, similar to the Advert MisSpell . You advertise Krazy Kars Auto Dealers because the spelling draws people's eye. It make is noticable.

[phookz]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

On the other hand, part of advertising is to make your product Different from others. If everyone is product large multi-colored barrages of full art then it's the simple two-tone that stands out in a see of visual cacophony.

 

Reminds me of a series of full billboard ads I've seen around town lately, two notable ones are the local Water Comanies "Use What You Need" campaign where they literally only have a quarter billboard in this garish orange on a massive metal frame with the phrase on it. Certainly stands out amongst every other giant rectangular slab.

 

And Snickers whose recent campaign involved their parallelagram like logo that's on the front of the Snickers Bar package, on a huge white field, with a single word in it (one of them was something like "Snackacoplypse"). And nothing else, not even the name of the candy bar or a company logo.

 

Minimal Advertising Tactics have their place and are also proven to work.

 

 

Also, Darren said at GenCon he hoped to provide stores with the incentive to be able to offer the two books at the Bundle Price should they choose to do so. So theoretically should be able to buy both books in an LGS for 70$. I have no idea if this made it to the street and is possible.

 

Your point is well taken regarding minimalistic art. Apple is a great example of minimalistic art. I deliberately didn't weigh in on whether the HERO art was good or bad - I don't have any data other than my own subjective opinion, and I'm not in the graphic arts business so it wouldn't be worth much anyway . I just wanted to make the point that the artwork, including the cover art, is very important. Maybe not to everyone, but to enough people to make a difference.

 

I wasn't aware of the MSRP for both books for B&M stores - I wonder how many people browsing the shelves will know.

[phookz]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure it is completely true anymore, but it used to be that you couldn't do squat with D&D if you didn't have some kind of Monster Manual or Compendium or whatever. The whole game was focused on going up against orcs and goblins and ogres and dragons and minotaurs, yet the "basic rulebooks" offer(ed?) no material on such creatures and no hint as to how to build them yourself.

 

Compare that to Hero. While the Bestiary is nice, anyone who's read through the basic rules can picture how to build "your basic dragon" with Str, Flight, HKA, and an Area of Effect attack of some sort for the breath weapon (besides all the extras you could imagine if you wanted to get into details: size increase, Enhanced Senses, etc.). Also, Hero is a generic system, and in a lot of genres your whole game won't hinge around having a library of monsters at your fingertips. If you're playing Champions, for example, you'll probably be building enemies that look pretty much the same as your protagonists.

 

So no, I don't think it is fair to say you should either include the cost of the Hero System Bestiary or exclude the cost of the D&D Monster Manual. The former is a nice little bonus to your gaming experience, while the latter is absolutely essential.

 

I came into Second Edition AD&D after having played a few games with friends and such. I bought the Players Handbook and DMG (there was no MM evident at the gaming shop when I bought those) and I figured I'd start running some games. Imagine the disappointment (granted I was pretty young) after I read cover-to-cover through both books and realized I hadn't the faintest clue how to run the adventures I had swirling around in my head. When I ran into Hero, on the other hand (when I finally found a copy to buy it was 4E, but I believe the copy I first borrowed from my friend to read might have been 3E), I read the book cover-to-cover and knew I had some work ahead of me, but that I could do absolutely anything, and knew exactly how to do it. Imagine my disappointment when I couldn't find any enthusiastic or even willing players. :-/

 

Well, even without the Monster Manual you can build NPCs for people to fight, but you are correct that there's nothing there for goblins, orcs, dragons, oozes etc. I would think the newbie player would be hard pressed to come up with all of this on their own in HERO as well without some guidance or examples to look at. Granted - HERO is a superior system for this since all of the rules are based on a well established framework as opposed to a bunch of one-off abilities and powers like D&D. But that's what's different about the systems.

[rjcurrie]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

On the other hand, part of advertising is to make your product Different from others. If everyone is product large multi-colored barrages of full art then it's the simple two-tone that stands out in a see of visual cacophony.

 

Reminds me of a series of full billboard ads I've seen around town lately, two notable ones are the local Water Comanies "Use What You Need" campaign where they literally only have a quarter billboard in this garish orange on a massive metal frame with the phrase on it. Certainly stands out amongst every other giant rectangular slab.

 

And Snickers whose recent campaign involved their parallelagram like logo that's on the front of the Snickers Bar package, on a huge white field, with a single word in it (one of them was something like "Snackacoplypse"). And nothing else, not even the name of the candy bar or a company logo.

 

Minimal Advertising Tactics have their place and are also proven to work.

 

 

For example, I personally love Pepsi's current design style.

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Your point is well taken regarding minimalistic art. Apple is a great example of minimalistic art. I deliberately didn't weigh in on whether the HERO art was good or bad - I don't have any data other than my own subjective opinion, and I'm not in the graphic arts business so it wouldn't be worth much anyway . I just wanted to make the point that the artwork, including the cover art, is very important. Maybe not to everyone, but to enough people to make a difference.

 

I wasn't aware of the MSRP for both books for B&M stores - I wonder how many people browsing the shelves will know.

 

Oh no doubt cool artwork has its place. And is extremely important.

 

But if you ask designers what's the most important aspect of any design - it's how you use the White Space that makes whatever you're doing pop.

 

And sometimes it's use of white space - like those Pepsi Can designs RJCurrie posted up - that make the artwork pop more than the artwork itself does.

 

By making the Logo the prominent part of the Core Rules cover art Hero has done something other games don't do as much: Visual Branding.

[TSandman]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

[...]

The HERO System presents a meta language with which to define whatever kind of game you like in whatever sort of genre you like in whatever setting you like in whatever fashion you like from utterly fantastical to extremely gritty.

[...]

 

So much that a fellow gamer is calling it "Java: The Roleplaying Game"

[lemming]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

So much that a fellow gamer is calling it "Java: The Roleplaying Game"

 

I like comparing it to Perl a bit better.

[Warp9]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Why isn't Champions your flagship, your focus, with the generic Hero rules coming out later? The era where gamers are looking for a generic system is no longer here; that is a definate niche market.

I disagree with the above statement, in that I prefer the more generic approach of the modern editions to the old editions where the game was actually "Champions."

 

And I think it would be backward to come out with Champions:HERO, and then create (and re-release all the rules) for Generic:HERO.

[Panpiper]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Up until fifteen years ago, for a period of ten years, I was a manager of the largest sales volume game store in Canada. During my ten years, Hero System sold very well, and we had a vibrant Hero Games community in this city. Then I left the store to pursue other things, and there was no one at the store who championed the Hero System. In fact there was no one at any store who championed the Hero System in this city.

 

The situation today; my city is a wasteland if looking for Hero players. But there are legions of D&D players and all manner of other games being played.

 

No doubt, the single most important element to the success or failure of a game system like Hero is the support of people like the OP, a store manager. We need people working in game stores who know the system, who can 'sell' the system.

 

But I would also 'STRONGLY' caution you all to attend to what a store manager says when he gives you feedback about marketing. Nobody knows how to sell games better than the people whose job it is, to sell games. Yes, there are those of you who mostly purchase online nowadays. I'll bet however than nine out of ten of you did not discover the Hero System online. You found it either through friends, or someone like the OP talking to you about it.

 

Hero ignores his feedback at their (and your) peril.

[John Desmarais]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Why isn't Champions your flagship, your focus, with the generic Hero rules coming out later? The era where gamers are looking for a generic system is no longer here; that is a definate niche market.

I disagree with the above statement, in that I prefer the more generic approach of the modern editions to the old editions where the game was actually "Champions."

 

And I think it would be backward to come out with Champions:HERO, and then create (and re-release all the rules) for Generic:HERO.

 

To a limited extent, I almost agree with Scott - not that I would have wanted to see Champions come out before the core rule books, but I do think that it would have served the game well to have the Champions genre book hit the streets are roughly the same time (with a flashy, comic-booky cover).

 

Champions is still the more familiar brand, and having it on the shelves will pull people towards the rule books - which is ultimately what we want.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I'm honestly surprised that cover art (or art in general) can make such a big difference.

 

You would be amazed.

 

I was working at a comic/game shop during the launch of 3E D&D. We had the Creature Collection (third party monster book out before the monster manual - great monsters, great B&W lined art). On at least two occasions people picked it, flipped through it, and said something like "Ehh - Black and White art" and put it back.

 

Completely shocked me, because I don't care about art in game books that way.

[secretID]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I think it would be backward to come out with Champions:HERO' date=' and then create (and re-release all the rules) for [b']Generic:HERO[/b].

I think the answer would be just to drop the Hero brand, more or less. Champions, Fantasy Champions (not a full rulebook, but a tweak), etc.

 

Yes' date=' there are those of you who mostly purchase online nowadays. I'll bet however than nine out of ten of you did not discover the Hero System online. You found it either through friends, or someone like the OP talking to you about it.[/quote']

Even though I researched an shopped online, I started with looking for Champions (not Hero, which I had never heard of) first in part because I remembered the cover of the game in a store from years back.

 

I'll note, though, that it was a different world when I saw that cover. V&V was the only competition I had seen, so it was easy for a supers game to stand out.

[Warp9]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I think the answer would be just to drop the Hero brand, more or less. Champions, Fantasy Champions (not a full rulebook, but a tweak), etc.

But I'm not sure that is an answer I want to see implemented.

[GoldenAge]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

As a comic book lover who was looking for superhero games George Pérez's covers sold me on Champions 4th Edition and Hero System. [period]

 

His work on Classic Enemies got me to buy it too.

[redwulfe]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

That is something I can really see. I never had any comic books in my store many of the players were not comicbook enthusiast. some of read comics but none of us would consider ourselves comicbook guys. I can really see artwork being a major descisive factor in a comicbook guys purchasing habits. This is not a bad thing of course, but I can see this from another direction that I did not think of. know I am curious to see the Champaions book. I think that good art would be very necessary for this book. It will appeal to the target audience. I still beleive that the artwork for the main rulesbook is very stylistic and appropriate for what the book is. The cover does represent the system. in a way that is different than other things on the market to catch a persons attention and the art on the interior is good. The paper quality is top notch as well as the binding. All in all it think the only con I can see is not having a sample of the game being run or a good sales pitch type explanation in the first few pages to help the customer see all that the hero system has to offer in lieu of another person being able to talk to the prospective buyer.

 

Red