Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

[shadowmage87]

Hi. I'm looking to build fantasy-HERO game to go with the high-magic setting my friend and I have concocted. I've come over from DnD, but I don't want to do a direct conversion for 3 reasons:

 

1) I disagree with the direction DnD took some of its archetypes and am basically rewriting them

2) I dislike the balance issues 3.x had, but I also dislike the cookie-cutter approach 4E took to fixing it

3) I see no reason to mimic the complexities of the leveling/multiclassing system of DnD when simply freeform mixing and matching of abilities will work

4) I don't want it to feel exactly like DnD. I don't want a mage to 300 spells, 290 of which he doesn't use.

 

But I have a problem with balance. In DnD 3.x magic was far too powerful, but in HERO I feel that the opposite might be the case. I mean, given how cheep and easy it is to make a brick in HERO, is there a good way of keeping a big flashy caster (wizard, specifically, my sorc works very differently) on par with a simple fighter, short of just giving the fighter less points?

 

At the moment I see three options:

 

1) create a maneuver system similar to the spell system I'm building

2) just give the fighter enough points to buy his equipment and subsequently reduce the max AP of powers used from mage's VPPs, as well as the CP of monsters, etc.

3) just leave the casters to their VPPs and give the fighters points on par with that

 

Problems:

 

1) this is a lot more work for me, though this is sort of what I'm leaning towards

2) this is highly limiting since the only real magic weapons and armor in this setting are artifacts and exceptionally rare

3) this leads to bloated Characteristics and casters with slightly more options on the fly than I'm going for

 

Does anyone have any ideas?

[Panpiper]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

I would highly recommend spending some time browsing the magic systems outlined at this web site:

http://www.killershrike.info/WorldofGenerica.ashx

 

But I have a problem with balance. In DnD 3.x magic was far too powerful' date=' but in HERO I feel that the opposite might be the case. I mean, given how cheep and easy it is to make a brick in HERO, is there a good way of keeping a big flashy caster (wizard, specifically, my sorc works very differently) on par with a simple fighter, short of just giving the fighter less points?[/quote']

You certainly have a different perspective from the norm around here. Most of us are more concerned with how to let the fighters shine than the mages. If you simply tell players (who know the system) "build anything you want", you run the risk of seeing some insanely powerful 'and flexible' wizard characters. You could well see some insanely powerful warriors as well, but they are typically limited to hitting things with their axe. The wizard however, left unconstrained, can hit stuff just as hard as the fighter, and also do a whole mess more. The wizard can see through the cave rock, go desolid to fly through the rock to the dragon's treasure, be invisible while doing so, zip the treasure into an alternate dimensional pocket for later retrieval, and for good measure, just for the hell of it, cast a no normal defense, fully invisible, area effect gas cloud around the dragon just to mess with it while he again flies through the rock to make good his escape. (Most GMs would nix that wizard, and rightfully so.)

 

It is good to give some structure to your game so such things do 'not' happen in your game. The beauty of the Hero System is that it can be used to create any game you can imagine. But without constraint it can also create just about any nightmare character a GM could imagine. That's why I recommend checking out the systems outlined on Killer Shrike's web site. A lot of them give tremendous flexibility while still keeping the game rational. And you don't have to pick one and only one. They are all quite balanced.

 

Of course you could always use my old method of balance. Tell the players they can create whatever they want but their character sheet has to be written in pencil and handed to the GM before the game. The GM will then take an eraser to the sheet and make any and all changes necessary to preserve balance and cohesion in the game. Such changes are not to be debated. If the player doesn't want changes in their character, don't hand the GM a character that will need them. It worked for me for many years.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

You might find some resources to help you out here: killershrike.com

 

If you are coming from D&D, as you state, there is a large conversion provided and a number of supporting pages. Of note for your post, the Class Conversion documents go into a lot of detail on each of the D&D 3e classes and different ways to build out their defining abilities in the HERO System.

 

This page collects a lot of links to hundreds of package deals, dozens of races, a lot of fully detailed magic systems, and misc documents on various subjects: High Fantasy Content

 

 

There's enough material to keep you reading for days if you have sufficient interest. If you have any specific questions, let me know.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

Killer Shrike has excellent resources to build off of. I run a D&D style game where we pay points for everything, including magic items.

 

https://sites.google.com/a/tekhed.com/wilderlands/

 

Specifically, the Core Powers page talks about point balance: https://sites.google.com/a/tekhed.com/wilderlands/main/core-powers

[Panpiper]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

In DnD 3.x magic was far too powerful' date=' but in HERO I feel that the opposite might be the case.[/quote']

Magic is 'not' too weak in Hero. As proof of point, here is an example of what 'could' be done with the system, stripped of any chrome, that no fighter could possibly match. Note, this is an example of what NOT to allow in your game.

 

10 Str

10 Dex

10 Con

10 Body

13 Int 3

13 Ego 3

13 Pre 3

3 Ocv

3 Dcv

3 Omcv

3 Omdv

2 PD

2 ED

4 Spd 20

4 Rec

20 End

20 Stun

Total Stats: 29

 

48 120AP Offensive Multipower; See universal limitations below -1 1/2

5f 4D6 Ranged Killing Attack, Armor Piercing, +1 Stun Multiple, Zero Endurance

5f 4D6 Ranged Killing Attack, 16 Meter Radius Area Effect, Half Endurance Cost

 

20 50AP Configurable Defensive Multipower; See universal limitations below -1 1/2

3v 35AP Resistant Defense 23PD Resistant

3v 35AP Resistant Defense 23ED Resistant

1v 15AP Mental Defense 15 Points

1v 15AP Power Defense 15 Points

1v 15AP Flash Defense - Sight 15 Points

 

20 50AP Movement Multipower; See universal limitations below -1 1/2

2f Desolidification; Half Endurance

2f 28 Meters Flight, Zero Endurance, Persistant

 

5 Cantrips Multipower - Innate, No limitations

1 Telekinesis 3 Strength

1 Detect Magic as Sense

1 Nightvision

1 5 Meters Flight

1 4 Meter Teleportation; Safe Blind

 

Total Combat: 121

 

14 +7 OCV with Offensive Multipower

3 Non Combat Skill, Just so we can say we have one.

3 Non Combat Skill, Just so we can say we have more than one.

3 KS: Bad Ass Magic

2 PS: Bad Ass Mage

 

Total Skills: 25

 

Grand Total: 175

 

Universal Limitations on Multipowers:

Two hand gestures -1/2, Incantations -1/4, Obvious Inaccessible Foci -1/2, Delayed Phase -1/4

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

And so it is that Panpiper reminds us that just because you can... doesn't mean you should.

 

(Nice build, Pan - and definitely to the point)

[shadowmage87]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

Thanks for the quick input everyone!

 

I've been to killerstrike's site before, and I'm building my magic system off of ideas I got from there. It's been a while though, and I think I'll have to go back to look at things again.

 

That said, I've not actually played Fantasy HERO before, and my worries were based mostly on my experiences with nigh-unstoppable bricks in Champions.

 

Thanks again for the input!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

Thanks for the quick input everyone!

 

I've been to killerstrike's site before, and I'm building my magic system off of ideas I got from there. It's been a while though, and I think I'll have to go back to look at things again.

 

That said, I've not actually played Fantasy HERO before, and my worries were based mostly on my experiences with nigh-unstoppable bricks in Champions.

 

Thanks again for the input!

 

Tangent: the STR recursive loop is gone in 6e making it a little more expensive to build a basic brick.

 

That aside, if you check out the Nine Arrows PC's, there are quite a few archetypes represented. Of course, the characters joined at various times and the given sheets are just snap shots of a particular point in time, so it isnt a straight up apples to apples comparison. Still, there's a lot of interesting analysis that can be done by looking at the various characters and seeing where they are alike and unalike.

 

Saemund and Taared are fantasy bricks. Saemund was on the uber end of the campaign power o meter and was pretty much the alpha male of the campaign. However, it was more due to his focus on defense and how he was played than his raw strength; in fact I don't recall him pulling "strong guy" stunts very often. The player consistently doubled down on the strength and toughness over the life of the campaign, building up to it.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

skill levels on multi-powers cost 3 points

[Zeropoint]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

In my fantasy world, the general consensus is that if all you want to do is hurt things, by far the easiest thing to do is buy a sword or a bow. Magic is for all the things you CAN'T do with muscles and sharp steel.

[Susano]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

Allow me to point out that when you go from Western fantasy to Eastern fantasy, the divide between magic use and martial use vanishes... powerful "mages" are often masters of the martial arts while masters of martial disciplines possess nigh magical powers and abilities.

[Vondy]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

I think the dichotomy may actually stem from FRPG culture. Even in western fantasy there are sorcerers who are also competent, if not excellent, warriors. Elric and the Gray Mouser come to mind.

[Susano]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

I think the dichotomy may actually stem from FRPG culture. Even in western fantasy there are sorcerers who are also competent' date=' if not excellent, warriors. Elric and the Gray Mouser come to mind.[/quote']

 

Elric was a true sorcerer, Mouser had no illusions about the level of his magical skill (not that that stopped him). Also, Gandalf was quite skilled with the sword and wielded... Glamdring, wasn't it?

[Vondy]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

Elric was a true sorcerer' date=' Mouser had no illusions about the level of his magical skill (not that that stopped him). Also, Gandalf was quite skilled with the sword and wielded... Glamdring, wasn't it?[/quote']

 

Its true the Mouser was more of a dabbler (albeit a darned lucky one). Gandalf was depicted as being a very competent swordsman. I'm sure some other examples will occur to me at some point.

 

Edit: Katherine Kurtz's Deryni protagonists tend to be warior/psionicist/wizard hybrids.

[Susano]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

Its true the Mouser was more of a dabbler. Gandalf was depicted as being a very competent swordsman. I'm sure some other examples will occur to me at some point.

 

Yyrkoon, Elric's cousin is one, as is Lady from The Black Company.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

Allow me to point out that when you go from Western fantasy to Eastern fantasy' date=' the divide between magic use and martial use vanishes... powerful "mages" are often masters of the martial arts while masters of martial disciplines possess nigh magical powers and abilities.[/quote']

 

Let me add, that in some movies I've seen, they need to add the martail arts to their magic.

[Susano]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

Let me add' date=' that in some movies I've seen, they need to add the martail arts to their magic.[/quote']

 

And in some cases, it's one and the same.

[Kristopher]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

I think the dichotomy may actually stem from FRPG culture. Even in western fantasy there are sorcerers who are also competent' date=' if not excellent, warriors. Elric and the Gray Mouser come to mind.[/quote']

 

The "you are a Rogue" and "you are a Priest" and "you are a Fighter" thing has always driven me nuts.

 

I think certain classes seem to have certain abilities tacked on because of specific characters, however... such as rogues being dabblers in magic in large part because of the Gray Mouser.

[Susano]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

The "you are a Rogue" and "you are a Priest" and "you are a Fighter" thing has always driven me nuts.

 

I think certain classes seem to have certain abilities tacked on because of specific characters, however... such as rogues being dabblers in magic in large part because of the Gray Mouser.

 

I'm pretty sure everything the old AD&D Barbarian class could do was based purely on Conan.

[Vondy]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

I'm pretty sure everything the old AD&D Barbarian class could do was based purely on Conan.

 

Pretty much. Yeah.

[Markdoc]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

I'm pretty sure everything the old AD&D Barbarian class could do was based purely on Conan.

 

He's not just a barbarian, he's THE barbarian!

 

But this is true for lot of AD&D classes and monsters - Rangers would not have existed without Aragorn, for example.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

He's not just a barbarian, he's THE barbarian!

 

But this is true for lot of AD&D classes and monsters - Rangers would not have existed without Aragorn, for example.

 

cheers, Mark

 

And then the Dragon writeup turned him into some kind of weird* cross-class paladin/ranger.

 

 

 

*Weird for AD&D1.0, anyway. For all I know, all the kids are playing that type nowadays.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

The "you are a Rogue" and "you are a Priest" and "you are a Fighter" thing has always driven me nuts.

 

I think certain classes seem to have certain abilities tacked on because of specific characters, however... such as rogues being dabblers in magic in large part because of the Gray Mouser.

 

You know this statement comes up alot. But I heard once though that men in the real world almost always define themselves by their jobs. Think about how many times in a new situation the question comes up; "What do you do for a livining". And we reply .... Now it probally has to do with other things as well, but we do state our "class" in conversation. Just a random thought.

[Panpiper]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

You know this statement comes up alot. But I heard once though that men in the real world almost always define themselves by their jobs. Think about how many times in a new situation the question comes up; "What do you do for a livining". And we reply .... Now it probally has to do with other things as well' date=' but we do state our "class" in conversation. Just a random thought.[/quote']

I've got two years of paramedic training and a year's work experience on ambulances. Dose that make me a level two paramedic? I apprenticed to a knife maker for a year and a half, does that make me a frist level weapon smith? I studied economics and business administration for a few years, does that make me a merchant class? And for most of the years I played Hero, I worked in game sales, does that make me a level three games salesman? And in none of those 'classes' does it justify the fact that I have thirteen years of various martial arts training 'plus' seven years of armored sword fight experience. And I've got streetwise and seduction skill, which isn't accounted for in any of my 'classes' either.

 

Classes are an invention of Gary Gygax & Co. that everybody and their dog copied, 'not' because it was a great idea and the obvious way to do things, but because that's the way it was done first and most earlier followers of D&D simply... followed. (And most still follow.) One of the great hallmarks of fame for the Hero System was that it was one of the first to utterly shatter that class structure and show that a game could be done entirely differently, without classes.

 

A persons 'job' is not their 'class'. Classes do not exist. They are an absolutely artificial construct of lazy, unimaginative game designers (pardon my Hero bias).

[Beast]

Re: Balancing Magic and Martial Characters in a Fantasy Setting

 

as a general rule you as the GM are allowed to put a cap on how much damage characters can do

this is 1 of the things I like about the Hero System

you can just go for limiting how many active points an attack can be

say 45 pts in a 200 pt game

this would mean the mage could have a 7d6 blast area 4m radius at 44 pts

and a hill giant paladin with a great sword doing 3d6 killing w/ strength 45 pts

keeping the damage in the same ballpark is easy to do in Hero