Number of Power Frameworks you allow.

[Herolover]

There is not rule that limits the number of power frameworks that a character is allowed to have. However, I am wondering if GM's out there do have a limit or do they even look at this kind of thing.

 

Let me give you an example. I created a character that has animal powers. So, I gave him 3 Power Frameworks.

1 multipower for attacks.

1 multipower for other animal abilites.

1 elemental control representing other various ablilites that I didn't want to fit into either of the multipowers above.

 

The reason I am asking this question is that I used 3 power frameworks for mechanic reasons not for roleplay reasons and I am wondering now if I might have stretched things a bit.

How do you rule on this kind of thing?

[Lord Liaden]

I don't have a hard and fast rule, but I tend to look askance at characters that have more than two Frameworks for one character, especially for starting level PCs. Beyond that is beginning to tread into munchkin land. Not too many characters have a good character concept reason for why the effects they want don't fit into one of the two.

[rjcurrie]

As a result of building the character this way, did you end up buying any powers that you feel may be out of conception for the character? If you didn't, then I see no problem with it.

[lemming]

Originally posted by rjcurrie

As a result of building the character this way, did you end up buying any powers that you feel may be out of conception for the character? If you didn't, then I see no problem with it.

What he said, though you could look into coming the MPs or even constructing a VPP with a set power list.

[Jeff]

I'm content to see as many frameworks as a character needs to work right. I think I've seen some with two multipowers and an EC; an MP and a VPP; two different types of VPP and an EC for one character by the time she got about 300 EP - a gadget pool, a mental powers VPP, and a prepared chemical booster EC. I've at least pondered characters with an attack MP, a defense MP, and a movement MP.

 

EC's just serve a different end than a multipower or VPP; it makes as much sense to make someone choose between having an EC and an MP as it does making them choose between SPD higher than base and an MP. Similarly, VPP's that aren't practically changeable in the field serve a different purpose than either; VPP's that are easily changed turn into super multipowers, with an appropriately high cost.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Number of Power Frameworks you allow.

 

Originally posted by Herolover

There is not rule that limits the number of power frameworks that a character is allowed to have. However, I am wondering if GM's out there do have a limit or do they even look at this kind of thing.

 

Let me give you an example. I created a character that has animal powers. So, I gave him 3 Power Frameworks.

1 multipower for attacks.

1 multipower for other animal abilites.

1 elemental control representing other various ablilites that I didn't want to fit into either of the multipowers above.

 

The reason I am asking this question is that I used 3 power frameworks for mechanic reasons not for roleplay reasons and I am wondering now if I might have stretched things a bit.

How do you rule on this kind of thing?

Seems reasonable. I once built a 4th Edition character with 2 multipowers and an EC. One MP was a gauntlet weapon with a laser, an electric blast, and autofired minigrenades. The EC and other MP were in the morphing battlesuit: an EC for Force Field and Gliding, and the MP for assorted fast movement powers.

[zornwil]

3 frameworks can be okay but deserves attention. More than that deserves a fine-footh comb (though by all means might be fine).

[Farkling]

Where's Hugh? He'll be after me in a minute...

 

I prefer starting characters with ONE Framework...

 

Pulp/Golden Age shouldn't be carrying frameworks to start with, but maybe as they grow.

 

For normal Supers campaigns I prefer one Framework at the beginning of the game...mostly because my past experience has been consistent character constructs of::

 

Attack Muiltipower

Defense Elemental Control

Movement Multipower (or Elemental Control)

 

This is a violation of the spirit of the genre to me...the character as built wants to do everything...how many team characters could do everything? Where's the room for growth?

 

I do realize that much of the published genre books contradict me...perhaps my comics knowledge is outdated...but my players have not complained about my restrictions, or argued about my reasons (well, only 1 out of 7). This is one readons I don't buy the (Champions) genre books, the characters as built contradict the view of the genre my gaming group has. Star Hero and Fantasy Hero look like sound investments though, and they are on my list.

 

I also object violently to anyone showing up with "just two" powers in a Framework...that doesn't justify the point breaks to me. If you have variant/themed powers and expect a cost break, I much prefer to see the thought for a range of themed powers...not simply a pair to save points...

 

Every dramatics instructor or actor or writer that I have met, insisted that a theme requires more than two samples.

 

Math/Statisticians also feel that a trend needs more than two samples...if math and art agree, then you have a symphony.

[Bartman]

I've had up to 5 frameworks on a single character. He was a gadgeteering type and had an EC and three MPs each representing a unique item. He also had a gadget VPP. Now in this case neither I nor my GM saw any problem with that particular character. But I would, as zornwil said, pull out the fine-toothed comb for anyone having more than three.

[DoctorItron]

Note that multiple multipowers are often *less* efficient than a single big multipower, so I don't see any red flags there. I use multiple mutipowers to speed up play.

 

Let's say I want to build a flying speedster. I could get one big multipower and stick everything in there. I'd rather make separate multipowers, one for movement and one for attacks, because it's much quicker to play - "Pick one power from menu A and one from menu B". Lets' say I put 60 points into each pool. Well, if I made one big pool with 120 points it wouldn't cost any more, but I could put a huge honking 120 point attack in there.

 

I'm actually dealing with this in the campaign I'm GMing. The speedster has a very flexible multipower but he needs a spreadsheet to list his most common multipower configurations. I want him to pull the movement powers into their own multipower to speed up combat.

 

I guess multiple multipowers could become a problem if a lot of limitations were stacked on some of the pools.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

Where's Hugh? He'll be after me in a minute...

 

I prefer starting characters with ONE Framework...

 

I agree and I disagree. I don't see a need to restrict characters to one framework. I do see a need for characters who can't "do everything". If you can do everything, you get pretty boring pretty fast,

 

However, my experience is that those characters exist with frameworks or without frameworks.

 

Since 1e (rec: 100 + 100 supers) to now (200 + 150), we've been gradually boosting points (and adding more abilities for characters to buy).

 

Frameworks boost point effectiveness, letting characters do more with the points they have.

 

I'd be more reluctant to play in a game where you're restricted to one framework if the opposition were not similarly constrained, but your campaign, as I undersatand it, imposes the same limits on all sides. That should leave it balanced (although making you unable to use as written published characters).

 

Some characters work with multiple frameworks. Others work better with none. If I were playing in your game, I'd look for a concept where one or no frameworks is the best representation. They're certainly out there!

 

I see the frameworks as another way of building the character. Multipowers aren't "in character" or "out of character", they're character building blocks. So I don't sweat a character who has more than one.

[Lord Mhoram]

No real limit. Whatever fits conception.

 

Had a PC with a Darkforce EC (farily low points) a Martial Arts attacks multipower and a utility belt VPP (15 pt).

 

Whatever fits conception. However I am extremely lenient on frameworks when I gm.

[OddHat]

Conception matters more than mechanics to me, and you can have concepts that work best with multiple frameworks. Witchcraft from the current version of the Champions is a useful example here: One EC for powers that need to run concurently, a Multipower for attacks, and a small VPP for all the neat minor tricks a powerful witch should be able to manage.

 

Yes, it's easy to wander into munchkin land with four multipowers; it's easy to do the same with one huge honking multipower or VPP (or cheap summon effects; howdy Hugh).

 

In my home campaign I'd veto an excessively munchkinesque character, but I do think there's a place for multiple frameworks.

[Lupus]

Originally posted by OddHat

Conception matters more than mechanics to me, and you can have concepts that work best with multiple frameworks. Witchcraft from the current version of the Champions is a useful example here: One EC for powers that need to run concurently, a Multipower for attacks, and a small VPP for all the neat minor tricks a powerful witch should be able to manage.

 

Yes, it's easy to wander into munchkin land with four multipowers; it's easy to do the same with one huge honking multipower or VPP (or cheap summon effects; howdy Hugh).

 

In my home campaign I'd veto an excessively munchkinesque character, but I do think there's a place for multiple frameworks.

Total agreement.

 

I do require that frameworks have some kind of theme around them (obviously, a looser theme for multipowers, a tighter theme for ECs). The fact that multiple frameworks cost more tends to keep munchkinism in mind.

 

I do allow players to buy a multipower up to double the AP of the higher power within it, so that they can activate two powers at once. (Borrowed from The Emerged's campaign rules.)

 

And yes, it does open the door for a different kind of abuse. But any GM who lets a character into their game without going through them all with a fine-toothed comb should be slapped. No matter how many multipowers they have.

[Ndreare]

I find the problem is never the frameworks... but all to often the player.

 

The idea behand gaming for me is to have fun if I feel the player is playing to compete with me and/or the other players than screw him. If I think the player is trying to build a cool character than more power to him. It is rediculous to put rules on the Heroes that the villains don't have to follow.

 

I like to run games were the players are the focus so if he thinks of a character with control over the for elements and decides to have four seperate Multipower's then more power to him. It would defenitly be better than a single 200 AP multi power.

[Magmarock]

...

 

I say "If you gots the points and it fits the PC concept, then go for it...!"

 

Sometimes you need multiple frameworks to accurately run the PC's powers as envisioned.

 

At the risk of highjacking the thread, by the way, I think the more serious munchkin problem is in taking cheesy, unwarranted Limitations on powers to make them cheaper. Might as well just build a PC on more points and be done with it.. IMHO

 

Mags

[Dr. Anomaly]

As a GM, I've never had a hard and fast limit on the number of Frameworks a given character can have, and I've never had a problem dealing with / working with a character that had multiple Frameworks. In a great many cases, the multiple Framework approach was the only real way to properly execute the character concept (usually because of point costs).

 

Currently I'm co-GMing a Champions campaign, which means that for literally the first time in over 8 years, I'm getting to *PLAY* Champions as well, every so often (WHEEEE!!) My character is heavily skill-based, and has TWO Variable Power Pools: a Gadget pool (75 active point limit) and a Magic pool (30 active point limit). He's a scientist-sorcerer. So far my only problem (and I knew in advance this would be the case) is that while he's very flexible (with prep time..."Only in a Lab", etc.) his max "punch" doesn't measure up to the max "punch" of the other characters without VPPs. As has been noted, often times multiple Frameworks are *less* efficient. In this case, that's certainly true, but it fits the character concept to a "T", so less efficient it is!

 

For comparison, the other characters in the game include:

 

* a Brick (animated gargoyle with few small magics of his own)

 

* a Powered Armor Wearer (our main ranged combatant, uses a couple of Multipowers)

 

* an Energy Projector (gravity-based TKer, also a ranged combatant, but in a completely different style)

 

* a Multiformer (a nanobot colony that colonized a dead body and can rebuild it at a moment's notice into any form for which they've finalized a "template" -- 4 so far -- and these include an in-your-face hand-to-hand martial artist, a mid-range mentalist with teleportation and healing powers as well, an armored form with good long-range movement, and a scientist "base" form)

 

To date, there's been no "stepping on toes" even when specialities overlap. The scientist form of the Multiformer works VERY well with my scientist-sorcerer -- they compliment each other beautifully. My character can make a device or spell to do just about anything, but can't make it do it as well as the Brick, Armor Wearer, or TKer can do it "natively". Though our number of play sessions has been limited so far, our characters seem to be meshing well and doing a good job of covering one another's weak spots without encroaching on any "personal schtick" territory.

 

This just seems to bear out what I've felt during my years as a Champions GM -- it's not the Powers or Frameworks, it's the players that cause or avoid problems.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat

Yes, it's easy to wander into munchkin land with four multipowers; it's easy to do the same with one huge honking multipower or VPP (or cheap summon effects; howdy Hugh).

 

Powers don't make Munchkins. Munchkins make Munchkins.

 

I think multiple framewprks are less likely to cause a problem (because the option makes sense for a wide variety of characters) than an uncommon power, suitably tweaked.

 

Would you rather have a character with two multipowers, a VPP and an EC, or a guy with ExtraDimensional Movement, Usable as an Attack, 1 hex area (just to cite a construct almost certain to be rejected).

 

Or, to use Oddhat's example, a guy who pays 120 points to Summon 16 Loyal 300 point combat monster creatures (30 DEX = 60 pts; 6 SPD = 30; 15d6 EB = 75; +25/+25 Armor = 75; 60 points left for miscellaneous stats and levels; no frameworks). They don't really need a lot of STUN/BOD - if they get taken out, Summon some more!.