Fantasy or Pulp?

[Vondy]

In general, if something has supernatural elements I start to regard it as fantasy or horror. I'm curious how herodom assembled would define this:

 

A swashbuckling historical game set in the 1700s that contains paranormal elements ala Solomon Kane, Pirates of the Caribbean, and similar adventure pulps. For those familiar with the Aubrey-Maturin series, imagine if POB had turned the books into a "fantastique," a genre which takes the real world and gives it a supernatural (often very subtle) twist.

 

Would you define something like this as Fantasy or Pulp?

[RexMundi]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Pulp.

 

~Rex

[LordGhee]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Fantasy

 

 

Lord Ghee

[The Suave]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Fantasy/Pulp.

[Kristopher]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Fulp?

 

Seriously, I think it's not a clear-cut line.

[Cancer]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Depends on how overt the supernatural elements are, and how much access to them the PCs have. If the PCs can sling supernatural stuff (like zap-spells) as competently as the NPCs or better, it's fantasy. If they have little or no direct access but can follow cookbooks/ancient tomes and have to puzzle out the meaning of prophecies and rituals without recourse to personal experience and training (though scholars in history/anthropology are OK here), it's pulp.

 

Six-gun magic on either side in anything other than a climactic battle pushes it to fantasy.

[assault]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Pulp isn't a genre. Fantasy is.

 

Therefore it's Fantasy.

 

Otherwise, Conan is Pulp, and so is a great deal of science fiction.

 

Obviously, the lines are blurred.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Pulp isn't a genre. Fantasy is.

 

Therefore it's Fantasy.

 

Otherwise, Conan is Pulp, and so is a great deal of science fiction.

 

Obviously, the lines are blurred.

 

Conan was written before there was a clear-cut fantasy genre. And was published in the pulps.

 

I agree he's essentially a fantasy hero, but the lines of the fantasy genre only became rigid after the second world war.

 

And Conan doesn't fit the mold of what I'm describing.

 

What are Captain Jack Sparrow or Solomon Kane?

[RexMundi]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Pulp.

 

In fact, Solomon Kane is one of the definitive Pulp Examples given in creative writing courses, and you can follow that path, directly to characters such as the Lone Ranger, the Shadow, and Doc Savage, not to mention, the myriads of other things out there. Pulp, is a style of Atmosphere. That's why so many famous Pulp Characters, seem to exist as parts of so many different settings. Pulp, has nothing to do with the Date. That's just when most of the more known stories were written/took place. There are just as many examples of Modern Pulp, as well (Ed Brubaker's Incognito for example).

 

Pulp, quite simple is the Grand daddy of ALL genre's. It's the root.

 

~Rex

[The Suave]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Similar to what Rex said: I usually consider Pulp more of an aesthetic than a genre. I tend to do the same thing with Steampunk. They have their little intricacies, and everyone tends to know what you're talking about when you say Pulp or Steampunk, but the lines are blurry.

[Deadborder]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Pulp Fantasy

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

I'd go with the comment that where you draw the line is how big an influence magic is: if the players spend a lot of time talking about zombies protective chrams and magic users, it's fantasy. If they are mostly worrying about how to get past the cutlass and flintlock-wielding pirate culltists without alerting the whole crew, it's pulp, in my gentle opinion. The difference is more one of flavour than precise setting. To take one example, Carnacki the ghost finder is - IMO - pulp, even though most of his stories deal with hauntings or creatures from beyond, because Carnacki's response to a haunting is invariably to haul out some supra-scientific apparatus, measure the wall for signs of arcane activity or similar and on being confronted with supernatural activity he doesn't cower in fear before the unknown, but goes "Ooh, a class three Saiitii manifestation! Very dangerous! Good thing I have my electric pentagram set up." or similar.

 

In short, if when confronted with problems, the players turn to their spellcaster, it's fantasy. If they turn to their scientist or their pistols, it's pulp.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

I'd go with the comment that where you draw the line is how big an influence magic is: if the players spend a lot of time talking about zombies protective chrams and magic users' date=' it's fantasy. If they are mostly worrying about how to get past the cutlass and flintlock-wielding pirate culltists without alerting the whole crew, it's pulp, in my gentle opinion. The difference is more one of flavour than precise setting. To take one example, Carnacki the ghost finder is - IMO - pulp, even though most of his stories deal with hauntings or creatures from beyond, because Carnacki's response to a haunting is invariably to haul out some supra-scientific apparatus, measure the wall for signs of arcane activity or similar and on being confronted with supernatural activity he doesn't cower in fear before the unknown, but goes "[i']Ooh, a class three Saiitii manifestation! Very dangerous! Good thing I have my electric pentagram set up.[/i]" or similar.

 

In short, if when confronted with problems, the players turn to their spellcaster, it's fantasy. If they turn to their scientist or their pistols, it's pulp.

 

cheers, Mark

 

This is pretty close to my take on it as well.

 

Thanks for your input.

[RexMundi]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Ah but then you run into the fun stuff, like Doc Sidhe. Now, you have people turning to their Magic User, AND, it's still Pulp. Pulp, is all in the delivery. Sci Fi, is a Fast Ball. Fantasy, is a Curve Ball. Pulp, is a Breaker Ball. Doesn't really fit in the pitch rotation very well, but you can't win a game without one.

 

~Rex

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

I think the issue is that I don't like fantasy.

 

Its actually a bit of an epiphany.

 

I like biblical heroes, folk heroes, and pulpy heroes with sharp, pointy things.

 

None of those things fall within the realm of the fantasy genre as its understood.

 

I grew up on Moses, Gideon, Dvora, Sampson, Ehud, King David, Robin Hood, King Arthur, Tarzan, and Zorro.

 

Not to mention a steady diet of american frontier and old west folk heroes.

 

I didn't really get introduced to fantasy literature until after I started gaming - and to be honest never got into it.

 

I enjoy the early planetary romance and sword and sorcery characters to some extent, but its more of an acquired taste.

 

The problem is: a lot of the reading I do isn't strictly pulp, either.

 

The boards have "other genres" as a slush category.

 

I guess that's where I'll do most of my posting.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Fulp?

 

that's ONE way to describe it

[RexMundi]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

I think the issue is that I don't like fantasy.

 

Its actually a bit of an epiphany.

 

I like biblical heroes, folk heroes, and pulpy heroes with sharp, pointy things.

 

None of those things fall within the realm of the fantasy genre as its understood.

 

I grew up on Moses, Gideon, Dvora, Sampson, Ehud, King David, Robin Hood, King Arthur, Tarzan, and Zorro.

 

Not to mention a steady diet of american frontier and old west folk heroes.

 

I didn't really get introduced to fantasy literature until after I started gaming - and to be honest never got into it.

 

I enjoy the early planetary romance and sword and sorcery characters to some extent, but its more of an acquired taste.

 

The problem is: a lot of the reading I do isn't strictly pulp, either.

 

The boards have "other genres" as a slush category.

 

I guess that's where I'll do most of my posting.

 

Pulp is as slushy as it gets. It's all encompassing, and you can find aspects of it, in any other genre, should you choose to look for it. Everything you described above in the quote, is pulp, right down to the appearance of biblical power houses like Samson himself, in the Project Super Powers comics from Dynamite. Robin Hood, is Pulp, Tarzan and Zorro, are Pulp. 99% of Westerns even as they are written today, are Pulp. SO, by posting in the Pulp Genre, you are where you should be. THIS, is a Pulp Character. And guess what, there's Magic associated with the genre. Die Hard Fantasy people seem to think that when ever there is magic, it's theirs. Pulp however, has had magic in it far before Tolkein and company established Fantasy as a viable genre. Know what that genre was before that. Mythology, or Religion, depending on who where and when you were, and it was ALL Pulp, when it started.

 

Pulps the glue that holds everything else together. So if the above, is your Diet, then you belong over here in the Pulp thread with the rest of us. Oh and the above Cover, Samson is obviously the Hero, Dagon is the bad guy since they are introducing all the bad guys to go with their truly Heroic and Pulp Origin Heroes. Pulp trumps any other Genre, since it covers, EVERY other Genre.

 

~Rex

[Susano]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

I look on stuff like what you're describing as "historical fantasy", akin to Brotherhood of the Wolf, The 13th Warrior, and Pirates of the Caribbean. Historical eras with an application of fantastical elements (in this case "werewolves", Neanderthals, and Aztec curses). At the same time, I agree with the assessment that you're probably going to end up with a Pulp-ish game, since it does sound very Solomon Kane-ish... and that PotC is pretty much a Pulp story, not a "fantasy" one (zombie pirates notwithstanding).

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Pulp is as slushy as it gets. It's all encompassing' date=' and you can find aspects of it, in any other genre, should you choose to look for it. Everything you described above in the quote, is pulp, right down to the appearance of biblical power houses like Samson himself, in the Project Super Powers comics from Dynamite. Robin Hood, is Pulp, Tarzan and Zorro, are Pulp. 99% of Westerns even as they are written today, are Pulp. SO, by posting in the Pulp Genre, you are where you should be. [img']http://www.dynamiteentertainment.com/images/TNPSPBadGuys03covRoss.jpg[/img] THIS, is a Pulp Character. And guess what, there's Magic associated with the genre. Die Hard Fantasy people seem to think that when ever there is magic, it's theirs. Pulp however, has had magic in it far before Tolkein and company established Fantasy as a viable genre. Know what that genre was before that. Mythology, or Religion, depending on who where and when you were, and it was ALL Pulp, when it started.

 

Pulps the glue that holds everything else together. So if the above, is your Diet, then you belong over here in the Pulp thread with the rest of us. Oh and the above Cover, Samson is obviously the Hero, Dagon is the bad guy since they are introducing all the bad guys to go with their truly Heroic and Pulp Origin Heroes. Pulp trumps any other Genre, since it covers, EVERY other Genre.

 

~Rex

 

While I agree there is a pulp aesthetic that can be found in many works, if everything is pulp then pulp is nothing. It has to have a definition and boundaries or the term is, in of itself, meaningless.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

I look on stuff like what you're describing as "historical fantasy"' date=' akin to [i']Brotherhood of the Wolf[/i], The 13th Warrior, and Pirates of the Caribbean. Historical eras with an application of fantastical elements (in this case "werewolves", Neanderthals, and Aztec curses). At the same time, I agree with the assessment that you're probably going to end up with a Pulp-ish game, since it does sound very Solomon Kane-ish... and that PotC is pretty much a Pulp story, not a "fantasy" one (zombie pirates notwithstanding).

 

Historical fantasy might be a good descriptor for those situations where there is an overt occult/paranormal/supernatural element in play. In other words, where its existence is concrete. In cases where its left open to interpretation, for instance visions, dreams, and bizarre occurrences it would probably fall into the realm of "historical." Robin Hood with Hern the Hunter and active witchcraft ala Robin of Sherwood would be historical fantasy. Robin Hood without those elements, or where characters believed in such things but its existence was not concrete in the narrative, would be folk-lore.

[gojira]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

I'm also wondering if it's a traditional Romance. That is, "romance" in the form of a not-too-realistic adventure, with a positive outlook and lots of melodrama and camp. These were popular books before "pulp" (and arguably the pulp were "romance" in this sense), they seem to predate the pulps and inspire them. So the romances share some form with the pulp but have their own set of tropes and cliches.

 

I think your scenario sounds like a "high seas romance" with some ghosts and stuff tossed in.

 

Forgot to add: Some examples of romance books: Captain Blood, and the 1932 novel Mutiny on the Bounty.

[Vurbal]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

I think the issue is that I don't like fantasy.

 

Its actually a bit of an epiphany.

 

I like biblical heroes, folk heroes, and pulpy heroes with sharp, pointy things.

 

None of those things fall within the realm of the fantasy genre as its understood.

 

I grew up on Moses, Gideon, Dvora, Sampson, Ehud, King David, Robin Hood, King Arthur, Tarzan, and Zorro.

 

Not to mention a steady diet of american frontier and old west folk heroes.

 

I didn't really get introduced to fantasy literature until after I started gaming - and to be honest never got into it.

 

I enjoy the early planetary romance and sword and sorcery characters to some extent, but its more of an acquired taste.

 

The problem is: a lot of the reading I do isn't strictly pulp, either.

 

The boards have "other genres" as a slush category.

 

I guess that's where I'll do most of my posting.

Had I replied earlier in this thread I would have answered fantasy. But this post in particular has made me do a lot of thinking about my own fantasy game. Although I started reading fantasy before I began gaming, my fondest recollections are still of the pulpier characters and stories like Tarzan, Zorro and Robin Hood. My version of fantasy tends to focus on my favorite elements of those stories and is perhaps more pulp than anything else.

 

So rather than trying to convince you that the game you describe is fantasy I'll just thank you for sharing your personal revelation. It's given me a lot to think about when it comes to my own game.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

I'm also wondering if it's a traditional Romance. That is, "romance" in the form of a not-too-realistic adventure, with a positive outlook and lots of melodrama and camp. These were popular books before "pulp" (and arguably the pulp were "romance" in this sense), they seem to predate the pulps and inspire them. So the romances share some form with the pulp but have their own set of tropes and cliches.

 

I think your scenario sounds like a "high seas romance" with some ghosts and stuff tossed in.

 

Forgot to add: Some examples of romance books: Captain Blood, and the 1932 novel Mutiny on the Bounty.

 

This - even more than historical fantasy - may reflect what I'm looking for.

[RexMundi]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Reads to me more like the venue of Solomon Kane, which last I looked, had, Pirates, Ghosts, Historical Romance/Adventure, Magic, Swashbuckling, and the hardest hitting Puritan that ever sailed with Sir Francis Drake. And, it's undeniably, Pulp.

 

~Rex

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy or Pulp?

 

Reads to me more like the venue of Solomon Kane, which last I looked, had, Pirates, Ghosts, Historical Romance/Adventure, Magic, Swashbuckling, and the hardest hitting Puritan that ever sailed with Sir Francis Drake. And, it's undeniably, Pulp.

 

~Rex

 

While Solomon Kane is undeniably pulp, that doesn't mean what I intend to write will be. Or that the vast array of folklore easily fits into that category.