Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

[Vondy]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

I remember back in the 4th edition days how nigh everyone on the message boards used to tell me that Powers were for Superhero games and that they didn't belong in Fantasy or Sci-fi unless representing spells or mental powers. How times have changed. How times have changed....

 

I prefer to minimize the use of the powers section in heroic campaigns. I do, however, use them to create genre appropriate talents when skills or perks won't do the trick. It seems to me the pendulum has swung all the way the other direction at this point, though. Now *everything* is a talent or superskill. Both are valid approaches. The sweet spot is probably somewhere in the middle.

[Ice9]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

I definitely use powers at Heroic scale, and people are free to make their own, as long as it fits within the campaign style (no fire-breathing in a realistic espionage game, for instance). In fact, in sometimes specialized super-skill powers are easier to afford than raw skills in a heroic game, as opposed to a superheroic one where you can easily have the stats and overall levels to accomplish almost any feat of skill.

 

I also often use a resource pool instead of directly buying all weapons/gadgets with cash, at least for important gear that you want to be reliable; it makes characters that aren't fully equipment oriented more practical.

[casualplayer]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

The problem with using Powers is that they are mostly meant to be opposed by other Powers. A very small point expenditure in Mental Powers can be devastating in a Mental Defense-less environment. A small Killing Attack, even 1/2d6, can be game breaking in a world without the persistently, pervasively bulletproof. Unless you slow Power usage down with Extra Time and Concentration, hamper it with Requires Skill Roll and Restrainable and make players limit the heck out of it, you'll find a 10 Active Point power ruining plotline after plotline.

[dmjalund]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

no fire-breathing in a realistic espionage game' date=' for instance[/quote']

 

a guy with a fiery torch and a mouth full of accelerant (alcohol) and a bit of breath control should do it

[Vondy]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

a guy with a fiery torch and a mouth full of accelerant (alcohol) and a bit of breath control should do it

 

At that point its probably PS: Fire Breathing and not a power.

[Vondy]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

The problem with using Powers is that they are mostly meant to be opposed by other Powers. A very small point expenditure in Mental Powers can be devastating in a Mental Defense-less environment. A small Killing Attack' date=' even 1/2d6, can be game breaking in a world without the persistently, pervasively bulletproof. Unless you slow Power usage down with Extra Time and Concentration, hamper it with Requires Skill Roll and Restrainable and make players limit the heck out of it, you'll find a 10 Active Point power ruining plotline after plotline.[/quote']

 

Its a good point, and the reason my rule is "use a skill wherever possible." Only if its not possible do I look at a power as an option. One example: cinematic hypnotism. You could build a super-skill using mind control. You could also purchase Skill: Hypnotism 20-. It can be handled as an opposed roll (Skill Vs. Ego). The MoS (Margin of Success) can determine level of effect, which works very well for this example because hypnotism (DC/PH) has certain limits on its effects to start with. You could have simple success, and then critical success modeled after the critical hit option (UMA). The defender gets a roll and, if they want, their are non-power methods to model being strong-willed or trained to resist.

[Ice9]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

The problem with using Powers is that they are mostly meant to be opposed by other Powers. A very small point expenditure in Mental Powers can be devastating in a Mental Defense-less environment.

That sounds more like the power not fitting the genre than being problematic by virtue of being a power. If there aren't psychic powers in the world - then there aren't psychic powers. And if you're allowing Mind Control as "Convincing Speech" then having Mental Defense as "Stubborn Disposition" makes sense, and would probably not be too uncommon.

 

A small Killing Attack, even 1/2d6, can be game breaking in a world without the persistently, pervasively bulletproof. Unless you slow Power usage down with Extra Time and Concentration, hamper it with Requires Skill Roll and Restrainable and make players limit the heck out of it, you'll find a 10 Active Point power ruining plotline after plotline.

You mean like ... a knife? Something available in any setting I can think of? I'm a bit confused as to how this can be "game breaking".

 

 

a guy with a fiery torch and a mouth full of accelerant (alcohol) and a bit of breath control should do it

Touche.

[dmjalund]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

You mean like ... a knife? Something available in any setting I can think of? I'm a bit confused as to how this can be "game breaking".

 

you call THAT a knife?

 

Now THAT'S a knife

[casualplayer]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

You mean like ... a knife? Something available in any setting I can think of? I'm a bit confused as to how this can be "game breaking".

 

A knife that can't ever be Disarmed or broken and is completely concealable robs the GM of many a plotline. The player can't be restrained by anything shy of chains. A person known to have this power wouldn't be getting on any planes these days.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

1/2d6 HKA is a martial arts maneuver. Calling it a power doesn't break it any more than calling it a skill.

[Ice9]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

A knife that can't ever be Disarmed or broken and is completely concealable robs the GM of many a plotline. The player can't be restrained by anything shy of chains. A person known to have this power wouldn't be getting on any planes these days.

Given that the most damage that this "pseudo-knife" can do is 3 BODY, a person with 15 STR can do that much easily (and up to 6 on a lucky roll), and the defense of most inanimate objects is fully resistant, I'm not sure what challenges would be bypassed by this. Are people being tied up with snakes or something?

 

And more importantly, the limits on what abilities make sense for the campaign setting applies just as much to powers as it does to skills. If you're playing a setting without Laser Eye-Beams, then obviously they shouldn't be available via powers, any more than they would be available by a KS: Pyrokinetic Manifestation skill.

[casualplayer]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

Think about how many scenes in, say, any given Indiana Jones movie would have been ruined by him having the ability under discussion and you will understand what I'm warning about. If your games don't have those type of scenes, then no problem.

 

Good heroic-level gaming, IMO, is all about pacing, and easy access to Powers surrenders too much pacing control to the players. It lets them knock the pins down faster than you can set them up as a GM. Not saying prohibit it, just monitor it. Some Powers make some obstacles and challenges not even a threat.

[Greywind]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

A knife that can't ever be Disarmed or broken and is completely concealable robs the GM of many a plotline. The player can't be restrained by anything shy of chains. A person known to have this power wouldn't be getting on any planes these days.

Wolverine has papers indicating he has been implanted with metal. Similar to someone with a pin or plate that would register in the metal detector.

[Tasha]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

D&D 3rd edition and the popularity of MMORPGs like World of Warcraft (AKA WoW), changed the way that people looked at characters. Basically the gaming culture shifted to a more video game like version of itself. Before this Fighters, Rogues and non magical, non psychics only had "realistic" skills and talents (and some talents were off limit as they were too comic bookish). It seemed odd to give fighters anything else besides Skill levels, stats and maybe Martial arts.

 

With D&D 3.x we saw the explosion of "feats" which ranged from things that could be modeled with levels and skills to things that were out and out powers (ie AoE effects on Melee attacks, and invisiblity effects for Rogues). Also WoW pressed this idea further with their Rogue and Warrior classes which also had magic like abilities at their disposal.

 

So don't feel too bad, it's just a culture shift. You were just ahead of the curve on this one

 

Tasha

[Tasha]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

Think about how many scenes in, say, any given Indiana Jones movie would have been ruined by him having the ability under discussion and you will understand what I'm warning about. If your games don't have those type of scenes, then no problem.

 

Good heroic-level gaming, IMO, is all about pacing, and easy access to Powers surrenders too much pacing control to the players. It lets them knock the pins down faster than you can set them up as a GM. Not saying prohibit it, just monitor it. Some Powers make some obstacles and challenges not even a threat.

 

The Hero System isn't a nanny system like many others. If you find that a players is taking a power that would damage you plots, then it's the job of the GM to work with the player to limit or disallow that ability for that character. I assume that the character in the Pulp game had a good rationale for having what is basically an implanted knife? Of course if it was a Secret Agent game, ala James Bond, then such a thing wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities. ie 1/2 d6 RKA, IIF Wrist watch 6 charges which was a gadget that appeared in some Bond Franchise film (perhaps Thunderball or Never say Never Again).

 

I guess I wouldn't have an issue with powers being on a Heroic Character. I would trust the GM to make the right decisions based on the campaign. Also with so many Talents mimicking powers, it seems that it's an accepted thing.

[Ice9]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

Before this Fighters, Rogues and non magical, non psychics only had "realistic" skills and talents (and some talents were off limit as they were too comic bookish). It seemed odd to give fighters anything else besides Skill levels, stats and maybe Martial arts.

I don't particularly see that as the case. While people often use skills and talents in a "realistic" manner and powers in a for supernatural/unusual stuff, there's nothing that inherently makes that the case.

 

Realistic Power: Hamstring - Drain Running 4d6, Trigger (on use of HKA), OIF (bladed weapon of opportunity), Limited Power (triggering attack must do BODY), Limited Power (triggering attack must be able to hit legs), Limited Power (only on creatures with discernable anatomy).

 

Supernatural Skill: KS: History, with the SFX being that the spirits of the long dead are summoned to yield up their knowledge of the past.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

...

Realistic Power: Hamstring - Drain Running 4d6, Trigger (on use of HKA), OIF (bladed weapon of opportunity), Limited Power (triggering attack must do BODY), Limited Power (triggering attack must be able to hit legs), Limited Power (only on creatures with discernable anatomy).

...

 

One problem I see with this approach in a Heroic game is that unless potential abilities like this are grouped together up front like the current Talents are players unfamiliar with the use of Powers as a toolkit will be at a disadvantage vs. players more familiar with the system.

 

It also begs the question of why is it necessary to buy such a specific ability if a game already uses other realistic options like Hit Location & Disabling rules.

[Ice9]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

Players who don't know the system well will always be at a disadvantage, unless the GM or a more experienced player gives them help building their characters. While Skills and Talents are a smaller set than powers, they still need some experience to get the most from, and why learn only half a system anyway?

 

As for the difference, in this case, it mostly gives you specialization in this trick - you can hamstring someone with a single cut; you don't have to significantly injure their legs. In addition, it would apply in a campaign where hit locations were not in use (realistic but less granular combat is not unheard of). In addition, this same basis would let you achieve results that weren't part of the normal injury rules. For example:

 

Death by a Thousand Cuts - Drain END 2d6, Trigger (on use of HKA), OIF (bladed weapon of opportunity), Limited Power (triggering attack must do BODY), Limited Power (only on creatures with discernable anatomy)

[Tasha]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

I don't particularly see that as the case. While people often use skills and talents in a "realistic" manner and powers in a for supernatural/unusual stuff, there's nothing that inherently makes that the case.

 

Realistic Power: Hamstring - Drain Running 4d6, Trigger (on use of HKA), OIF (bladed weapon of opportunity), Limited Power (triggering attack must do BODY), Limited Power (triggering attack must be able to hit legs), Limited Power (only on creatures with discernable anatomy).

 

Supernatural Skill: KS: History, with the SFX being that the spirits of the long dead are summoned to yield up their knowledge of the past.

 

Ice9, you missed the point of that post. I didn't say that was the way it is now, just that historically you didn't see abilities like you posted in earlier editions of D&D or really any other Fantasy RPG. You could have similar things happen to you if you played a system with some sort of Hit Location and or Critical Hits, but it wasn't a power/ ability that Fighters and Rogues had.

 

All of that changed after 3rd edition D&D shipped.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

you call THAT a knife?

 

Now THAT'S a knife

 

every time i hear that qouote ithinkto myself im glad they not discussinug handguns

[Matt Holck]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

Evil: Slugs! HE created slugs! They can't hear. They can't speak. They can't operate machinery. Are we not in the hands of a lunatic?

[Greywind]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

every time i hear that qouote ithinkto myself im glad they not discussinug handguns

Danny Vermin: I got something to stop him.

Dutch: They made it for him special. It's an eighty-eight Magnum.

Danny Vermin: It shoots through schools. This goes through armor. And through the victim, through the wall, through a tree outside...

[Susano]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

Evil: Slugs! HE created slugs! They can't hear. They can't speak. They can't operate machinery. Are we not in the hands of a lunatic?

 

"Lasers, 8 o'clock, day one."

[Ice9]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

Ice9, you missed the point of that post. I didn't say that was the way it is now, just that historically you didn't see abilities like you posted in earlier editions of D&D or really any other Fantasy RPG. You could have similar things happen to you if you played a system with some sort of Hit Location and or Critical Hits, but it wasn't a power/ ability that Fighters and Rogues had.

 

All of that changed after 3rd edition D&D shipped.

What about Sneak Attack? Or for that matter, Find Traps - while it could be represented as a skill, it was also a special Thief-only ability that could be represented (in HERO terms) as a Detect (w/ Activation Roll). Fighters got the exclusive ability to make multiple attacks, which could be represented several ways, including Naked Advantage: Autofire.

 

For that matter, you're leaving out magic items. While a few people may have played without them, their inclusion was certainly the default, supported by all the modules and material. Even more so than in later editions, the 1E and 2E magic items often had unique abilities that don't fit under Stats/Skills/Talents.

[Ice9]

Re: Heroic v. superheroic genres and the use of powers

 

For that matter, it occurs to me a lot of the discussion is around low-fantasy or realistic present-day settings, but the Heroic category encompasses a lot more than that. Star Hero anyone? In a setting with cybernetics, genetic engineering, aliens, resleeving, and/or nanotech, not using Powers seems like trying to cram too much stuff into the passenger seat of a pickup truck while leaving the back empty.