Simplified Endurance Management?

[ajackson]

I find that, in games, I'm not generally fond of tracking small chunks of endurance -- you can easily be spending endurance 2-3 times per phase, which is far more often than you do anything else -- but on the other hand, I don't want to completely do away with endurance either -- I'd like to only track 'significant' energy consumption (say, pushing, plus any powers you design to be significant).

 

One possibility would be just buying most powers at zero END cost, and making a few exceptional powers cost END. There's a slight problem with that in 6e (with the price of END and REC, zero END cost tends to be a bad investment, particularly in heroic games), but it has the virtue of not requiring any house rules (just house rules on how characters should be built). Any other thoughts?

[Greywind]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

Do away with endurance as a house rule if you don't like it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

but on the other hand' date=' I don't want to completely do away with endurance either[/quote']

 

Do away with endurance as a house rule if you don't like it.

 

Umm...

 

 

Seriously though, you could try eliminating END in general, and then giving players a certain number of pushes per adventure (or per scene, or whatever you prefer). I do that with most of my convention games...

[torchwolf]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

Hmm. Only keeping track of significant END expenditures...

 

How about just dividing END cost, END, and REC (for END purposes) by say 5, and round off normally (in character's favor)? That way, all END costs of 2 or less is effectively ignored. Obviously this totally unbalances a bit of other stuff that would have to be adjusted (for instance using STUN as END in an emergency), requires certain writeups to be reviewed, as well as making the Reduced END advantages considerably less meaningful, depending on if you want to do this all the time or only occasionally. Cascading game mechanics effects, and all that.

 

Other than that:

Using the standard rules, long-term END expenditure that adds up to less than REC per Turn is normally inconsequential unless Long-Term END rules are used, so maybe that could be the basis for when to apply END costs; i.e., reviewing all characters with an eye toward low-END use powers/abilities, and only tracking END when it would likely add up to more than REC per Turn.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

Why not just skip the middle stage of END entirely, if you don't want it, and have Pushing paid for by STUN damage as if the character had no END remaining?

[Greywind]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

Umm...

 

 

Seriously though, you could try eliminating END in general, and then giving players a certain number of pushes per adventure (or per scene, or whatever you prefer). I do that with most of my convention games...

I didn't miss that, Derek, but there really isn't a lot of middle ground. Endurance tends to be on or off. The basic argument seems to be "I don't want to have to deal with bookkeeping for the characters." Which is a major part of the Hero combat system.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

Why not just skip the middle stage of END entirely' date=' if you don't want it, and have Pushing paid for by STUN damage as if the character had no END remaining?[/quote']

 

I'll really like this idea, although if "Pushing = Stun damage" becomes the default, I'd consider reducing the damage. The current rule is 1d6 Stun for every 2 End used after reaching 0 End. So pushing for 10pts will cause 5d6 Stun... is that too much?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

I'll really like this idea' date=' although if "Pushing = Stun damage" becomes the default, I'd consider reducing the damage. The current rule is 1d6 Stun for every 2 End used after reaching 0 End. So pushing for 10pts will cause 5d6 Stun... is that too much?[/quote']

 

How much is too much depends a lot on the game. 5d6 averages 17.5 STUN. Is that too much for your game?

 

There are lots of options. You could fix the STUN damage at, say, 1 per extra AP pushed, which would be 10 for a 2d6 Push. You could set it at 1d6 per 5 AP, making 2d6 Pushed cost 2d6 STUN. That seems like a break even - I do 2d6 more damage, and I take 2d6 damage. It's easy enough to adjust it higher or lower.

 

You could build in a sliding scale - perhaps the damage starts out low (or even nil), with each successive push in the combat carrying a greater and greater cost.

 

Perhaps the damage inflicted is not guaranteed, but variable, if you're OK with some extra die rolls. For example, Pushing could require a CON roll, at (for example) -1 for each 5 AP pushed. A 2d6 Push imposes -2 on the CON roll, so a character with a 23 CON needs a 12- to avoid taking any damage. For every point he fails by, he could take 1d6 STUN. This provides a significant advantage to high CON characters. Maybe a flat roll would be preferable, or maybe that's a perk of a high CON. You could apply a base penalty or bonus to the CON roll to make damage more or less likely. You could also apply a penalty for each additional Push in the combat, so that first Push feels pretty safe, but each extra one means a greater likelihood of taking damage.

 

How common do you want Pushing to be? How punitive do you want the down side to be?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

You could just tally END once per turn. Most actions that most characters make use the same amount of END anyway, and especially at 2-3 per phase, it doesn't make that much difference from phase to phase. The only time you'd have to look at it more closely than that is when someone drops into really low END or uses a huge amount at once.

 

Another option is to use counters to represent END. The math really isn't hard subtracting 2-3 at a time, but it's even easier to move 2-3 counters out of one pile into another.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

You could just tally END once per turn. Most actions that most characters make use the same amount of END anyway, and especially at 2-3 per phase, it doesn't make that much difference from phase to phase. The only time you'd have to look at it more closely than that is when someone drops into really low END or uses a huge amount at once.

 

Another option is to use counters to represent END. The math really isn't hard subtracting 2-3 at a time, but it's even easier to move 2-3 counters out of one pile into another.

 

I'm reminded of the Knights of the Dinner Table strip with Patty's Perps reflecting various stats with different colours of M&M's.

 

"Quit eating my Hit Points!"

 

Still, keeping beads or counters rather than a tallly sheet would be just as effective a way of tracking END, STUN and BOD, and a lot more visual.

[JmOz]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

The idea of beads is interesting, you could do something similar to what we use to do for magic (A string of beads that had extra room to allow it to slide over)...

[ajackson]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

How much is too much depends a lot on the game. 5d6 averages 17.5 STUN. Is that too much for your game?

For most games, yeah. I've been in a game that used 1d6 per 5 active points, and even there it's kind of rare -- in a one on one fight, taking 2d6 damage for a chance to do +2d6 damage (remember, you might miss) isn't a great deal unless it makes the difference between stunning and not stunning the target.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

Yeah, my sense is that taking as much damage as you inflict is exessive. It's easy to adjust, though. It could be 1d6 STUN for every 10 AP added by pushing (so adding 2d6 hurts you for 1d6). If you want it reduced further, make it 1d6 STUN per 15 AP, or even a flat 1 STUN per 5 AP added (1d6 standard effect for adding 15 AP = 1 stun per 5 AP). The greater the cost, the less frequently it will be used, so if you want to see it in frequent use, it can't be a knockout punch for the character Pushing.

[Utech]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

You might decide on simple categories for END usage in a given phase rather than for each individual activity.

 

• 0 END = All short-term, minor activities. Also any Power bought at 0 END.
  
• 5 END = Included activities requiring moderate effort (sprinting a short distance, trying to punch someone, picking up something really heavy).
  
• 10 END = Included activities requiring massive effort (long-term sprinting, a full-power punch, continuing to hold up something really heavy).
  
• 15 END = Included activities that require going beyond what you believed your limits to be. (sprinting faster than you ever did before, hitting with more force than you believed possible, holding up that school bus until the nuns get out).
  

These are numbers and categories plucked out of the air. Naturally, you should define your own standards. You should then be able to simply charge 0, 5, 10, 15, (20?) END for a Phase without carefully tracking everything done in a given Phase.

[casualplayer]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

Only worry about END expenditures during the Turn summing greater than the character's REC (or break it down to REC/SPD,) because the post-12 will recoup it all anyway. Your typical 4 SPD and 8 REC hero can run and punch all day, and you only have to keep track of the extraordinary efforts like pushing to jump over lava. Now if you keep the pressure on you do have to keep track of that net loss of END over time because they might not have it in them at a crucial moment. And if they get their bell rung and have to operate on the meager reserves you get back when you get your wits about you again, well, resource management (and scarcity) is the source of drama.

 

IMO, minimizing END in HERO cheats you out of a tool for enhancing tension. Eliminating it entirely, without expending points for 0 END Cost on all your END-using powers, breaks the game.

[Vondy]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

I've eliminated Endurance as a characteristic.

 

If fatigue from exertion becomes dramatically appropriate I call for CON rolls.

 

The longer the period of exertion the more negative modifiers successive rolls takes.

 

But most the time I don't sweat it.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

I would just add 0 END to all the regular powers, and have the exceptional powers cost end normally. It's not like 0 END adds to DCs.

 

Also, I don't see why a player couldn't keep track of his END if he really wanted too.

[Markdoc]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

I dropped regular END use because tracking it bugged my players who are/were all Hero newbies. I intended to reintroduce it later but the game rums well without it, so never have.

 

My house rules are:

1. All powers take 0 END as a (free) default. Powers may still take "costs END", or "Increased END" or even "Reduced END" (see below for why they might want to.)

2. Pushing costs END as normal

3. Post-12 recoveries do not recover END. If you wish to recover END, you need to actually "take a breather" ie: take a recovery

4. Long Term Endurance loss is calculated normally (ie: not including the free "0 END as default"). If a character wants to be literally tireless, they need to buy reduced END.

 

The effects of these changes are:

A) Combat is a little faster and simpler.

Most characters can afford to push at least 1 or 2 times per combat

C) Combat takes place over very short periods, However, the use of LTE means that characters are still limited when it comes to non-combat activities.

D) It makes effects that use END differently (like autofire) slightly more useful. I don't mind that, since autofire has never been overly powerful and with these house rules still isn't.

 

cheers, Mark

[prestidigitator]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

In heroic games, I typically track End for magic users (who often have separate End traits or End Reserves for magic anyway in my games), when someone heavily exerts themselves, when someone is wounded, or when a battle has lasted quite a while. In other situations I just figure the characters aren't getting all that tired and don't worry about it.

[Fearghus]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

I have two tricks I use for keeping track of endurance stun and body that I use and my whole group has adopted for several different games. I can't claim credit for thinking up these tricks, but I will describe them for you.

 

The first and easiest way to track all your characters numbers is to place your character sheet inside a sheet protector and write on it with a wet erase marker. For my character sheets I even have columns of bubbles on them so I can simply tick off where on the column me stun, body and endurance are. then erase and re-mark when I recover.

 

The other trick I got from the Deadlands RPG. Use the columns in the margin of your character sheet, and place a paper clip where your endurance is. Move the clip up and down the side of the paper as you expend or recover endurance.

 

I have included a copy of the character sheet that I use to give you an idea what I am talking about. Anyone is free to use this character sheet as they see fit. I know alot of people use character designer, so it might not be useful for most. But I have a sentimental attachment to pen and paper, so I do all my characters by hand.

 

EDIT:

I forgot to say... this is a 5E character sheet... 6th seems similar enough, but you will see formulas for the calculated characteristics on here.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

I dropped regular END use because tracking it bugged my players who are/were all Hero newbies. I intended to reintroduce it later but the game rums well without it' date=' so never have.[/quote']

 

You think if they left off the rum then they might be more able to manage their END?

 

 

Doc

[prestidigitator]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

You think if they left off the rum then they might be more able to manage their END?

 

LOL. Good point, but which would you rather play with, rum or Endurance? I think my games would rum well too, come to think of it.

[dmjalund]

Re: Simplified Endurance Management?

 

'tis a rum thing indeed

 

(Arr!)