Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

[Michael Hopcroft]

Having got back from seeing How to Train Your Dragon yesterday, it struck me (actually it struck me at the time) that the creative team had some experience with role-playing games. The Viking village has a (largely erroneous as it turns out) Monster manual of all the types of dragons they've encountered, and one of the kids in the movie has memorized as many of the stats as possible (not that it helps him a lot when training to fight dragons).

 

That said, it might be cool to have a culture in a Fantasy Hero game that rides dragons. Controlling a dragon is not easy to do -- that is unless you've been breeding and training them for several generations. It probably took dozens of generations for horses to learn to accept being ridden, after all. It's not an entirely new idea -- Anne McAffrey built her career on something very similar.

 

In system terms, the dragon would be a follower -- albeit a very expensive one! Riding it would be a use of the Riding skill. Although it's very difficult compared to riding a land creature, if you've spent most of your adult life learning how to do it you won't have a penalty to the skill. An outsider trying to do it, though, would face a significant penalty to skill rolls -- -4, perhaps -- to reflect that he has to control a mo punt that moves in three dimensions.

 

But in campaign terms, what would this culture do? If they can control beasts that everyone else in the world fears and loathes, what does that mean for how they're viewed by others? With respect? With terror? With awe?

[dmjalund]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

on a tangent, this confirms my idea for some rides/vehicles/weapons should be considered "difficult to master" and thus have a higher Familiarity cost

[Alibear]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

I stole the cancept of the Valhru form 'The Magician' (by Raymond E Feist) for my campaign. A PC stumbled onto armour which was basically a portal for the long dead Dragon Rider to come back to life in a new body. Soon after the player started wrestling with his demons he stopped playing and the Valhru took over him.

 

Shortly after he brought all the sleeping dragons on the planet back to life and they started running amok. The first, and only, he has so far encountered, which he could master, was a wvyrn which he now uses as a mount. Proper fully grown Dragons are too difficult to control even for the Dragon Lord as he hasn't grown into his full power yet and dragons haven't started to breed yet.

 

If a powerful enough magician could capture a hatchling then perhaps he might be able to train one like you would a hunting hawk. Perhaps.

 

 

That is my thinking on the subject for my campaign.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

I think it's a bit hard to answer this generically. Pernese dragons are different from those of Krynn, which are different from those sometimes ridden by the dragon lords of Melnibone, and none of them are necessarily what a medieval peasant would have considered a 'dragon' had he the leisure time to stop and think about it...what are your dragons supposed to be like? I think we need to know something more about that before considering their riders...

 

Beyond that, the one bit of advice I can think of giving is to caution against "superstitious fear". Most people living in or near this dragon-riding culture will by necessity already have a pretty good idea what dragons really are like; they may not necessarily always get quite all the details straight, but the dragons will not be mysterious beasts of myth and legend to them the way they are to us. (Foreigners from distant lands who see a dragon for the first time in their lives are on their own, mind. )

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

The Vikings of HTTYD feared the dragons, but not out of superstition. But they did ascribe characteristics to them that it turned out they did not possess like superhuman malice. They even kept a collection of captive dragons for training purposes, who they did not treat all that well. The protagonist learned something about normal dragon behavior from seeing them in the field in a non-combat situation, which proved to be a great advantage at the climax of the story.

 

That's one way to view the problem. If the only contact you have with dragons in when a bunch of them come to town to steal your pigs, you ascribe different characteristics to them than you would if you grew up around dragons in their native environments. And "tamed" dragons (or about as tame as such a beast can get) would be a different matter entirely. Certainly warriors on dragon-back raiding your castle would be a terrifying sight....

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

I enjoyed the movie immensely. It is well worth watching, even for cynical adults.

 

As a GM I would only allow this type of thing with something like a wyvern, about the size of a flying horse, and without a breath weapon. Think about the great imbalance to the game world if one group could control big fire breathing dragons. Unless everyone else could, that group would end up ruling the world by default. I believe that was what happened in the Elric books, though I haven't read them in like twenty years, so I could be a little fuzzy on the details.

 

HTTYD is a kid's movie, so the writers would not necessarily see it this way, but the Vikings in that village are now free to basically terrorize and conquer at will. They have air power in world where no one else does, and they are at heart a pretty aggressive lot. Do you really think that they would be satified cavorting with dragons on their crappy little windswept rock of an island? No. They would be training those puppies like warhorses and spreading out to claim better lands.

 

The thing about Pern was that they had an enemy that came from without, the Thread, to focus their attention and prevent them from fighting each other. Otherwise, that might have been a much different series.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

on a tangent' date=' this confirms my idea for some rides/vehicles/weapons should be considered "difficult to master" and thus have a higher Familiarity cost[/quote']

 

Throws out a 5 pt 25 pt follower young psuedo-dragon

 

Luminous

3 Strength        -7
8 Constitution    -4    
11 Dexterity        3    
10 Body            0        
8 Intelligence    -2    
8 Ego            -4    
5 Presence        -5    
           -19

11- Perception    
6(3) Physical Def    8
6(4) Energy Def    8
           -3

3 Speed         9    
13  Stun        -1
16  Endurance       
3  Recovery    
           5 
2'' Running          -8
5" Flight             10
           7

3 Concelment 11-
3 Slight of Hand 11-
3 Stealth 11-
9 3 levels Concelment, Slight of Hand, Stealth

Statts:    7
Powers    18
       25

[Chimera 12]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

Mmm. It's true that the Melniboneans basically ruled their world for millennia, the decline they're in when the Elric saga opens notwithstanding. As to whether anybody else could easily imitate that...

 

I'd say it would come down to two factors, possibly three. First, just how powerful is an individual dragon? The more destructive they are, the fewer of them a nation (tribe, kingdom, whatever) needs to be a threat, especially if they have a monopoly...but the harder the dragons may be to control in the first place.

 

Second, logistics. How much in terms of food, nesting space, and other maintenance does the average dragon need on a daily basis? Do they get to hunt for themselves, and if so, what's their usual prey? And, for that matter...how quickly do they breed? If only the king and his twelve paladins can even afford dragon mounts, that makes them very impressive as individuals, but for a professional 'air force' of any sort it's still only a pretty small group.

 

And third, of course, the usual concerns about social status and such. Clearly, not everybody can be a dragon rider...so, who chooses them, and who does that authority think can be trusted with the position? If a single dragon can wipe out a small village in a couple of attack runs, that's a lot of power to put into the hands of only one person right there...conversely, if dragons are basically just scaly flying warhorses, they'll be that much less impressive but you can probably afford to hand out the privilege much more freely.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

Assuming that the dragons are reasonably powerful it becomes likely that their riders will be able to conquer a decent sized empire if they choose to.

[mallet]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

I think it all depends on how powerful the enemies are.

 

Sure a Dragon is super tough and one dragon could wipe out a village. A "wing" of Dragons could conquer a decent sized empire if they choose. But that depends on what and who they are up against. If the setting has powerful wizards, then maybe two or three wizards working together could defeat a dragon. Maybe only one "super" wizard would be needed to stop a dragon. In a typical Fantasy setting I'd wager there are a lot more wizards then there are Dragons and dragon riders. Or maybe instead of fighting the Dragon head on, a not as powerful wizard could summon up super strong winds and bad weather to stop the dragons flight or make it almost impossible for someone to ride the dragon through the storm.

 

And then what about Clerics/priests? Strong divine spells could also work wonders against attacking dragons. And there would also be a lot more priests then there would be dragons.

 

Together powerful wizards and priests could probably put up a good fight against an attacking group of dragons & riders.

 

So if dragons & riders are rare enough and valuable enough, then no king would risk just sending out his dragons & riders against an enemy kingdom. No, he would use his regular troops to attack and occupy the kingdom, with the dragons and riders there to soften the enemy and to attack strategical positions and enemy strongholds.

 

The Dragons & the riders would just be one weapon in the arsenal the King would have to use to take over an other kingdom.

 

just like the USA can have stealth bombers, jet fighters, drones, and even nukes, but those 4 weapons alone wouldn't allow them to take over an other kingdom. You need ground troops, logistics, navy, supply drops, re-enforcements, tanks, jeeps, APC's, and all the rest.

 

Dragons & riders still have to stop to eat and rest. They have to take time to heal from damage and injuries. They can't be up patrolling the skies 24/7.

 

Heck, Iraq and Afghanistan are showing us that superior air power and air attacks can't win you the war. You need to be on the ground and in the mountains and valleys and house to house to win. And even then, having the most powerful military doesn't mean any war will be quick or easy.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

Bear in mind that modern rebels have access to weapons such as relatively sophisticated and lightweight bombs that their predecessors did not have. Empires such as the Romans and Mongols were succesful because, among other things, their methods and means of war afforded them an advantage over their opponents. It was harder to overcome such advantages with the weaponry of the time.

 

Dragons are definitely a military advantage. One can presume that if wizards and superwizards are common enough that every culture has them then the dragonriders will also have them. Just like in the Dragonlance novels.

 

You are right, however, that logistics are important. As are political loyalty and military discipline. The Mongols controlled a massive empire, partly because no one could match hundreds of thousands of horse archers with recurve bows but also because, (for a while), they followed their Khan devotedly, had harsh yet excellent discipline and obliterated anyone who crossed them. They also had a pretty impressive administration system for the time. This empire broke up due to infighting as much as anything else.

 

Note that if you transplanted the Mongols into a fantasy setting, (which was done most blatantly in the early history of the Forgotten Realms where they appeared in the guise of Yamun Khahan and his Tuigan Horde), they would still have all their advantages as well as possessing wizards and clerics where appropriate.

 

In other words, magic users can reduce the impact of any military advantage but if both sides are equal, (broadly speaking), with regards to magic then that advantage remains.

 

Of course it does mean that you have to be more careful with your dragons if other people can blast them out of the sky. If they are relatively rare then it is possible that the only people allowed to ride them into battle would be those who could protect them with their own magic.

 

And if one side has all the superwizards then dragons just become nice big targets for battle spells. Not to mention other monsters or mighty heroes who can slay the most terrible of dragons if they set their minds to it. Many a dark lord has learnt that a handful of dragons do not a victory make.

 

I think we need more background on these Dragonriders of yours Mr Hopcroft. And on the world which they inhabit. Gryphon Riders, Vampire Lords and Archwizards will do much better against them than spearmen would.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

Didn't read the thread, just the OP, and I don't have anything material to contribute other than this:

 

In the past when doing "pilot" oriented games, it often proved to be better to have the "vehicle" be the main character and the "pilot" be a secondary character rather than taking the usual character-focused approach and then attempting to reconcile point differences. There are various ways to arrange this mechanically; however the main point is simply to break out of the usual way of thinking about such things.

[Curufea]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

If you want a different take on Dragon use, I recommend reading the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik.

It's alternate history set around the Napoleonic Wars.

Dragons are huge - about the size of ships, and treated similarly to men-of-war as well, with crews, gunners and harnesses to crawl about on.

I modified the rules for Wings of War for them as well (if you want to try a card/miniature game) - and got permission to use this art on my website, which I think demonstrates the books really well-

[Bloodstone]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

HTTYD is a kid's movie' date=' so the writers would not necessarily see it this way, but the Vikings in that village are now free to basically terrorize and conquer at will. They have air power in world where no one else does, and they are at heart a pretty aggressive lot. Do you really think that they would be satified cavorting with dragons on their crappy little windswept rock of an island? No. They would be training those puppies like warhorses and spreading out to claim better lands.[/quote']

 

Well, we don't KNOW they are the only ones with air power. It's technically not established that there are any other cultures for them to terrorize and conquer at all At the very least, looking at the maps, it didn't appear that there were any other civilizations nearby. Hiccup firmly establishes through his narration that the island is in the middle of nowhere.

 

Of course, if there are other cultures, what's to say they haven't already tamed dragons or some other mythic flying beast?

 

That said:

 

- The dragons have limited firepower. Not a major limitation if you have a lot of dragons, of course.

 

- We don't know what their flight range is like. The island seems quite remote, so they may need something like an aircraft carrier setup for actual raids.

 

- The Vikings were shown to take them down pretty easily with a mix of ranged/melee weapons or even just wrestling moves. Presumably an intelligent rider would keep them out of melee range as long as possible. However, for the most part, the breath weapons were not used at long range. No idea how the dragons and the riders would stand up to a volley of a few thousand arrows, considering the dragons alone could be taken down by thrown weapons.

 

- They were also established to have numerous weaknesses that make them less than perfect as war mounts, which includes their apparent fear of eels, the addiction to dragon-nip, their dangerous reaction to loud noises, the delicacy of their wings/fins, the fact they pass out when the correct spot is rubbed and the vulnerability of the dragon when it attempts to breathe fire. The blind spots are easily negated by the presence of a rider. Of course, many of these weaknesses would require one to get close to the dragon and/or to have intimate knowledge of dragons...

 

Of course, the Night Fury is massively HAX!!!

 

Quite a few differences from the books...

[Susano]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

Having got back from seeing How to Train Your Dragon yesterday, it struck me (actually it struck me at the time) that the creative team had some experience with role-playing games. The Viking village has a (largely erroneous as it turns out) Monster manual of all the types of dragons they've encountered, and one of the kids in the movie has memorized as many of the stats as possible (not that it helps him a lot when training to fight dragons).

 

That said, it might be cool to have a culture in a Fantasy Hero game that rides dragons. Controlling a dragon is not easy to do -- that is unless you've been breeding and training them for several generations. It probably took dozens of generations for horses to learn to accept being ridden, after all. It's not an entirely new idea -- Anne McAffrey built her career on something very similar.

 

In system terms, the dragon would be a follower -- albeit a very expensive one! Riding it would be a use of the Riding skill. Although it's very difficult compared to riding a land creature, if you've spent most of your adult life learning how to do it you won't have a penalty to the skill. An outsider trying to do it, though, would face a significant penalty to skill rolls -- -4, perhaps -- to reflect that he has to control a mo punt that moves in three dimensions.

 

But in campaign terms, what would this culture do? If they can control beasts that everyone else in the world fears and loathes, what does that mean for how they're viewed by others? With respect? With terror? With awe?

 

One problem is that your dragon might not be my dragon. For example, many dragons from bestiaries of the middle ages were simply really big lizards and couldn't fly (others could). A Chinese dragon was nigh-on to a divine being, and no one in his right mind would try to control and/or ride one. Europeans feared dragons, thinking them to be the equal of Satan, while Chinese dragons where worshipped as bringers of life-giving rain and water.

 

Also, in many fantasy settings, dragons are fairly intelligent and aren't going to be controlled into do anything they don't want to do -- so you're looking more at a cooperative relationship as opposed to a master/pet one.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

One problem is that your dragon might not be my dragon. For example, many dragons from bestiaries of the middle ages were simply really big lizards and couldn't fly (others could). A Chinese dragon was nigh-on to a divine being, and no one in his right mind would try to control and/or ride one. Europeans feared dragons, thinking them to be the equal of Satan, while Chinese dragons where worshipped as bringers of life-giving rain and water.

 

Also, in many fantasy settings, dragons are fairly intelligent and aren't going to be controlled into do anything they don't want to do -- so you're looking more at a cooperative relationship as opposed to a master/pet one.

 

The best tactic to use against a medieval European dragon is to send an elephant after it. Dragons naturally preyed on elephants but they were always crushed to death by the falling elephant after killing it. Which would explain why you don't see many of them around these days.

 

Saints also own European dragons. This is probably due to the dragon's devilish origins.

[Curufea]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

Mind you, this could be the cause of the extinction of the European Elephant as well (hunted down and killed by Dragons) - and why there have never been Dragons in Africa or India.

[Susano]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

Errr... most middle ages bestiaries placed dragons in Libya, Ethiopia, and India....

[mallet]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

Errr... most middle ages bestiaries places dragons in Libya' date=' Ethiopia, and India....[/quote']

 

But most Bestiaries arn't real... So you can't expect them to get everything historically accurate.

[Curufea]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

I'd also like to point out that there were no elephants in Europe.

Although if Dragons are thought of to be in India, home of the Indian Elephant - then possibly there was some treaty signed between Elephants and Dragons?

[Alibear]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

I'd also like to point out that there were no elephants in Europe.

 

Point of order, ma lud! A British female naturalist found the teeth of pygmy elephants on the island of Cyprus.

 

edit: Dwarf elephants and remains have been found on many Mediteranian Islands.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_elephant

[Susano]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

Point of order, ma lud! A British female naturalist found the teeth of pygmy elephants on the island of Cyprus.

 

edit: Dwarf elephants and remains have been found on many Mediteranian Islands.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_elephant

 

Obviously they were driven extinct by the pygmy dragons.

[Curufea]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

Demidragons wiped out demielephants to use d&d nomenclature. Hmm, you could do a whole kids tv show about dragons vs elephants

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

I must admit that it is true that even medieval bestiaries did not record elephants as European animals. Presumably they also thought that dragons lived in Africa as they would otherwise have had to travel quite far to hunt their natural prey. Although dragon package holidays would certainly have explained some of those deserts they have over there.

 

I would still like an answer to my earlier question. Unless this thread's learned author has abandoned it in disgust after the slight derail which I may be partially responsible for. (Just a bit).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Dragon-Trainers and Dragon-Riders

 

In th eFantasy Hero Companion I for 4th, they had magical helmets which gave mind control over the flying dragons. Also it implied that they fought against the Hawklords. Elves who rides wild giant hawks. As to size of the dragon, there was no mentioned, but I always felt they were horse size myself.