If I had 500 slaves...

[Susano]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Yes, but it throws a Schumpterian wrench into the machinery by putting the Necromancer's magic into the mix. Are spells an exogenous economic input that escapes the iron law of wages?

(More likely, they can be seen as capital. Which, according to Marx, is surplus value. Hmm. Are lichs doing spell research the equivalent of zombies? Or of the ultimately alienated proletariat, no longer possessing their labour, or even the need for it?)

 

I figure you can resolve all of this simply by having a watery tart throw a scimitar at someone.

[Doc]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Yes, but it throws a Schumpterian wrench into the machinery by putting the Necromancer's magic into the mix. Are spells an exogenous economic input that escapes the iron law of wages?

(More likely, they can be seen as capital. Which, according to Marx, is surplus value. Hmm. Are lichs doing spell research the equivalent of zombies? Or of the ultimately alienated proletariat, no longer possessing their labour, or even the need for it?)

 

Humm, indeed... Are spell costly to research and learn? Is a necromancer only a skilled laborer (like an engineer), whose higher wage is justified by the sacrifices he/she made during his/her studies?

 

Moreover, we didn't discuss the material cost of creating a zombie. Does the spell necessitate rare material components? And yet again, does a zombie produces at least as much than a slave/proletarian? The zombie is probably slower, but doesn't require any sustenance and works all around the clock, but if it is too costly to create them, the zombification of the economy/society could indeed be avoided.

[Markdoc]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

I think you are being a little harsh here. Shackles are not the same as a grab. When you grab someone you are trying to prevent them from moving all together' date=' whereas when you shackle a slave you still them to be able to move and work. By deliberately giving them more freedom so that they can do your bidding, IMO you are sacrificing some of the OCV and DCV penalty of a full grab. Also, I would probably allow the players to move faster than half speed if they made a DEX roll with how much the made the roll by determining their speed.[/quote']

 

You ever watched people trying to run a three-legged race? Moving with shackles on ain't easy - that's the whole point. People in shackles move at a shuffle. People shackled to other people move at a shuffle and with caution, since it's all too easy to get tripped up. The penalties listed are the same as being grappled even by the arm, so no, I honestly don't think it's too harsh.

 

Of course if the PCs remained slaves long enough' date=' they would become eligible to buy skills such a Environmental Movement:Shackles and WF:Mining Axe.[/quote']

 

This, on the other hand, I heartily agree with.

 

cheers, Mark

[Rapier]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

This' date=' on the other hand, I heartily agree with. [/quote']

 

I can't imagine how boring that would get!

 

"It's your action, what do you do?"

"Load another shovel of coal."

"What do you do on your action?"

"I swing the pick. How long have we been at this?"

"This is year six!"

[BobGreenwade]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

"How long have we been at this?"

"This is year six!"

No, no -- not year six. It's turn 16,425,981, Segment 6.

[The Weapon]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

How much is the government going to help you if they run away? If (like the US South) the government is willing to coerce the free population to do your slave hunting for you need a lot less guards. If there is somewhere to escape to where the slaves can blend in you need a lot more. This is why slaves were traded each way on some ancient routes, you need to keep them away from places they know where they can slip back into free society. Slaves near a border with somewhere they won't be enslaved (e.g. the Everglades under the Seminoles) are much more likely to make a break for it. Slaves who's routes to a sustainable free place are blocked by physical or social barriers are fairly safe. There are two possible problems of course, escape and outright revolt. The latter is only a problem under the most brutal regimes where the slaves care less if they die.

[Drhoz]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Sorry to ask an off-topic question' date=' but I'd never heard before that there was such graffiti. Are there any websites that discuss this?[/quote']

 

plenty - http://www.google.com.au/search?q=graffiti+on+the+great+pyramid&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

for example

 

"Apart from the Great Pyramid itself, there are plenty of other pyramids and monuments that were created without superhuman intervention. As if this were not evidence enough, the tombs of both the builders and the workmen on the Giza Plateau have been excavated. Builders' tombs situated in the upper part of the necropolis bear the titles: "the Supervisor of Pulling the Stones", "Head of the Builders" or "Head of the Sculptors". They matched graffiti left by the workmen on the pyramids' stones. Easy to read are "Friends of Khufu", "the Great Guys" or "Gang of Menkaure." Debris found in situ included pottery, bread ovens, bones and dried fish left by the people who lived once there. Far from being the slaves spoken of in legend, these builders erected edifices for their divine ruler who represented for them the "image of the god". They participated with pride in accomplishing Egypt's national project. From time to time we come across graffiti like "the Craftsmen's Gang", "the Victorious Gang" or "the Enduring Gang", names that imply the workmen's pride in their work."

 

http://worldsbestwonders.com/news_great_pyramid_ancient.html

 

 

and http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid/explore/builders.html

 

"LEHNER: One of the most compelling pieces of evidence we have is graffiti on ancient stone monuments in places that they didn't mean to be shown. Like on foundations when we dig down below the floor level, up in the relieving chambers above the King's chamber, and in many monuments of the Old Kingdom, temples, the Sun temples, other pyramids. Well, the graffiti gives us a picture of organization where crews, where a gang of workmen was organized into two crews. And the crews were subdivided into five phyles. The word phyles is spelled p-h-y-l-e-s. It's the Greek word for tribe. The Egyptian word is za. They were divided into five za's. In later times when the Greeks came and in bilingual inscriptions, when somebody was translating za into Greek they used the word phyles, the word for tribe, which is extremely interesting actually.

 

Were these militaristic kinds of conscripts? Certainly they weren't slaves. Could they actually have been natural communities of the Nile Valley kind of contributing like the way the Inca build their bridges and so on? .....So the phyles then are subdivided into divisions. And the divisions are identified by single hieroglyphs with names that mean things like endurance, perfection, strong. OK, so how do we know this—you come to a block of stone in the relieving chambers above the Great Pyramid. And first of all you see this cartouche of a King and then some scrawls all in red paint after it. That's the gang name. And in the Old Kingdom in the time of the Pyramids of Giza, the gangs were named after kings. So for example, we have a name, compounded with the name of Menkaure, and it seems to translate 'the drunks or the drunkards of Menkaure.' There's one that's well attested, actually in the relieving chambers above the Great Pyramid, the Friends of Khufu gang, the Drunks of Menkaura gang, and then you have the green phyles and then the powerful ones. None of this sounds like slavery, does it?

 

And in fact it gets more intriguing. Because in certain monuments you find the name of one gang on one side of the monument and another gang, we assume competing on the other side of the monument. You find that to some extent in the temple, the Pyramid temple of Menkaure. It's as though these gangs are competing. So from this evidence we deduce that there was a labor force that was assigned to respective crew gang phyles and divisions."

[Lucius]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

If you had 500 slaves...

 

Then even if each is only a 25 pt slave, you would pay 50 pts to have that many as Followers.

 

on the other hand, if you LEASE 500 slaves...

 

If I LEASED 500 slaves: Summon 512 25-point creatures, Expanded Class of Beings (Limited Group: Heavy Labor Slaves; Any slave up to 25 pts; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (100 Active Points); 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (Only so much traffic the market will bear; -3), Extra Time: Window of Opportunity (1 Month, Only to Activate, The slaver comes around once a month to settle accounts, provide new slaves, etc.; -2 1/2), Antagonistic Hostile (must be forced to work) (-1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (Driven in coffles; -1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus (money doesn't grow on trees); Slaves aren't free - by definition; -1/2)

 

The same 500 slaves of 25 pts each cost 12 Real Points plus some gold and silver!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

We sell more than just palindromedaries

[Vondy]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

 

Of course if the PCs remained slaves long enough, they would become eligible to buy skills such a Environmental Movement:Shackles and WF:Mining Axe.

 

Do not forget Teamwork and WF: Shackles for tripping and choking guards with the chains, as well as blocking and binding their weapons, or wrapping up their limbs.

[Doc]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

If you had 500 slaves...

 

Then even if each is only a 25 pt slave, you would pay 50 pts to have that many as Followers.

 

on the other hand, if you LEASE 500 slaves...

 

If I LEASED 500 slaves: Summon 512 25-point creatures, Expanded Class of Beings (Limited Group: Heavy Labor Slaves; Any slave up to 150 pts; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (100 Active Points); 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (Only so much traffic the market will bear; -3), Extra Time: Window of Opportunity (1 Month, Only to Activate, The slaver comes around once a month to settle accounts, provide new slaves, etc.; -2 1/2), Antagonistic Hostile (must be forced to work) (-1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (Driven in coffles; -1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus (money doesn't grow on trees); Slaves aren't free - by definition; -1/2)

 

The same 500 slaves of 25 pts each cost 12 Real Points plus some gold and silver!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

We sell more than just palindromedaries

 

 

Well, that's the most point efficient economical maximization I've seen on this site ever...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

If you had 500 slaves...

 

Then even if each is only a 25 pt slave, you would pay 50 pts to have that many as Followers.

 

on the other hand, if you LEASE 500 slaves...

 

If I LEASED 500 slaves: Summon 512 25-point creatures, Expanded Class of Beings (Limited Group: Heavy Labor Slaves; Any slave up to 150 pts; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (100 Active Points); 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (Only so much traffic the market will bear; -3), Extra Time: Window of Opportunity (1 Month, Only to Activate, The slaver comes around once a month to settle accounts, provide new slaves, etc.; -2 1/2), Antagonistic Hostile (must be forced to work) (-1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (Driven in coffles; -1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus (money doesn't grow on trees); Slaves aren't free - by definition; -1/2)

 

The same 500 slaves of 25 pts each cost 12 Real Points plus some gold and silver!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

We sell more than just palindromedaries

Is there a "Lease to Own" program?

[Lucius]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Well' date=' that's the most point efficient economical maximization I've seen on this site ever... [/quote']

 

With an unfortunate misprint...but I've corrected it now.

 

For 17 pts rather than 12, you can have the same number of 150 pts slaves!

 

If I LEASED 500 slaves: Summon 512 150-point creatures, Expanded Class of Beings (Limited Group: Slaves; Any slave up to 150 pts; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (150 Active Points); 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (Only so much traffic the market will bear; -3), Extra Time: Window of Opportunity (1 Month, Only to Activate, The slaver comes around once a month to settle accounts, provide new slaves, etc.; -2 1/2), Antagonistic Hostile (-1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (Driven in coffles; -1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus (money doesn't grow on trees); Slaves aren't free - by definition; -1/2), "No Conscious Control" You don't necessarily know exactly what you're getting...and a 150 pt slave may be hard to control.. (-1/2), Side Effects (Side Effect occurs unpredictably but measures can be taken to make it less likely; Slave Rebellion; -1/4)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises is not responsible for failure to read the fine print

[Lucius]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Is there a "Lease to Own" program?

 

14 points and 12 monthly payments. But after that first year, the new owner becomes responsible for maintenance and replacement.

 

If I LEASE To OWN 500 slaves: Summon 512 25-point creatures, Expanded Class of Beings (Limited Group: Slaves; Any slave up to 25 pts; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (100 Active Points); Extra Time: Window of Opportunity (1 Month, Only to Activate, The slaver comes around once a month to settle accounts, provide new slaves, etc.; -2 1/2), 12 Charges which Never Recover (-2 1/4), Antagonistic Hostile (-1/2), Arrives Under Own Power (Driven in coffles; -1/2), IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus (money doesn't grow on trees); Slaves aren't free - by definition; -1/2)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

After the contract expires, Palindromedary Enterprises will no longer replace lost, stolen, strayed, damaged or destroyed units. Free disposal of units damaged, destroyed, or refusing to function properly, may be arranged depending on current necromantic research needs.

[DusterBoy]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

I've never understood the rationale (besides pure sadism) for mistreating people you've got doing heavy physical labour for you. The better the slaves are fed, watered and housed, the better they can work. And if you can get the Stockholm Syndrome working for you, they may not want to rebel.

[McCoy]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

I've never understood the rationale (besides pure sadism) for mistreating people you've got doing heavy physical labour for you. The better the slaves are fed' date=' watered and housed, the better they can work. And if you can get the Stockholm Syndrome working for you, they may not want to rebel.[/quote']

Yep, when times are good, do not bind the mouth of the kine that treads the grain. Come the inevitable famine however, double the slaves work load while cutting their rations and attrition sets in quickly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Well, in this case, slavery is also a punishment. Punishment for being on the losing side of a war, for example.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Well' date=' in this case, slavery is also a punishment. Punishment for being on the losing side of a war, for example.[/quote']No, slavery is considered just another form of booty brought home from the war.

 

Slaves are money on the foot, just like an ox, mule, or any other beast of burden.

 

They are not a long term form of incarceration, beyond just the simple fact of slavery being a form of confinement, the primary use is for free labor.

 

TB

[Drhoz]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

also bear in mind that treating your slaves well was perceived as a virtue. One part of the Egyptian afterlife test was whether or not you'd ever come to the attention of the Controller of Slaves.

[FreeDice]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Also, there have been societies where it was less "slavery" and more "indentured servitude," where it was considered dishonorable to run away from being a slave. You were expected by society to serve your time.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Also' date=' there have been societies where it was less "slavery" and more "indentured servitude," where it was considered dishonorable to run away from being a slave. You were expected by society to serve your time.[/quote']

 

Yes, but it was expected you got something out of it. During the settlement of North America, for example, indentured servitude was a way to pay for your passage to the New World. When your seven years was up, you were released and free to start a new life in the colonies -- far away from whatever troubles led you to want to get out of England or France in the first place.

 

Of course, there were others for whom it was an involuntary process -- "transportation" to the Americas (and, later, Australia) was a common punishment for certain crimes. You were sent across the ocean, spent some time doing hard labor for the state or for private "owners", then got the same fresh start at some point in the future.

 

Sadly, these only applied to Europeans. If you had the misfortune to be an African transported to America, there was no indenture system -- you were a non-person, disposable property with no rights whatsoever. Whether you were treated decently or not depended entirely on who your owner was. Some owners took some responsibility for the welfare of their charges. Many did not. In most of the South, it was even against the law to teach African-Americans basic literacy skills.

[Susano]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Yes, but it was expected you got something out of it. During the settlement of North America, for example, indentured servitude was a way to pay for your passage to the New World. When your seven years was up, you were released and free to start a new life in the colonies -- far away from whatever troubles led you to want to get out of England or France in the first place.

 

Of course, there were others for whom it was an involuntary process -- "transportation" to the Americas (and, later, Australia) was a common punishment for certain crimes. You were sent across the ocean, spent some time doing hard labor for the state or for private "owners", then got the same fresh start at some point in the future.

 

Sadly, these only applied to Europeans. If you had the misfortune to be an African transported to America, there was no indenture system -- you were a non-person, disposable property with no rights whatsoever. Whether you were treated decently or not depended entirely on who your owner was. Some owners took some responsibility for the welfare of their charges. Many did not. In most of the South, it was even against the law to teach African-Americans basic literacy skills.

 

Some of that came later. I recall reading that some African-American slaves were able to buy their freedom, some had it granted on their owner's death. I also recall reading that Haiti and Jamaica (I think) started out with white slaves—men and women from the debtor's prisons where were clapped in irons and shipped off to do something useful for the Crown. However, I'll also admit, I might have some of the exact details wrong.

 

I also recall reading that the American Indians kept slaves—usually African-Americans, and I swear I recall reading of African-Americans owning slaves themselves. However, I don't recall exactly where I saw that either.

 

Now that I think of it, the bit about debtors made into slaves was from Fuzzy Pirates, which, aside from using anthropomorphic animals, did seem to be well-researched and set in a fairly accurate Golden Age of Piracy.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Some of that came later. I recall reading that some African-American slaves were able to buy their freedom' date=' some had it granted on their owner's death. I also recall reading that Haiti and Jamaica (I think) started out with white slaves—men and women from the debtor's prisons where were clapped in irons and shipped off to do something useful for the Crown. However, I'll also admit, I might have some of the exact details wrong.[/quote']

 

The hero of Rafael Sabatini's classic pirate novel Captain Blood was one such person -- a surgeon who became a political prisoner and exiled slave under James II and who held a grudge against the British as a result -- until he discovered that James had been overthrown by his countrymen and replaced with William of Orange.

[McCoy]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Some of that came later. I recall reading that some African-American slaves were able to buy their freedom, some had it granted on their owner's death. I also recall reading that Haiti and Jamaica (I think) started out with white slaves—men and women from the debtor's prisons where were clapped in irons and shipped off to do something useful for the Crown. However, I'll also admit, I might have some of the exact details wrong.

 

I also recall reading that the American Indians kept slaves—usually African-Americans, and I swear I recall reading of African-Americans owning slaves themselves. However, I don't recall exactly where I saw that either.

 

Now that I think of it, the bit about debtors made into slaves was from Fuzzy Pirates, which, aside from using anthropomorphic animals, did seem to be well-researched and set in a fairly accurate Golden Age of Piracy.

In America shortly before and after the Revolution there was quite a hefty tax on freeing slaves, but it was waived for a deathbed bequest, which is why Thomas Jefferson and others freed their slaves in their wills. And yes, in the Antebellum South there were slaveowners who were Free Persons of Color.

[McCoy]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Also' date=' there have been societies where it was less "slavery" and more "indentured servitude," where it was considered dishonorable to run away from being a slave. You were expected by society to serve your time.[/quote']

 

Yes' date=' but it was expected you got something out of it. [/quote']

Rome was another example. If you were a Roman Prisoner of War, you were going to be a slave for the rest of your life. But upward social mobility was a possibility, your children might be free, their children might be Citizens.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: If I had 500 slaves...

 

Rome was another example. If you were a Roman Prisoner of War' date=' you were going to be a slave for the rest of your life. But upward social mobility was a possibility, your children might be free, their children might be Citizens.[/quote']

And if you were really lucky you could be adopted by your master, though that seems to have been extremely rare.