PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

[slaughterj]

Since PSLs cannot be used to counter Combat Maneuver penalties, is there any other cheap way to address those penalties? How about for other situations like grabbing/being grabbed, etc.?

 

I see Defense Maneuver basically counters certain situational penalties, but are there any other examples of PSL alternatives?

 

Obviously one can buy regular combat skill levels, but I am looking for other alternatives, especially since those get halved as well, IIRC, e.g., in grabs, surprised, etc.?

 

Could one buy regular skill levels and apply limitations so that they only work for certain conditions (e.g., grabbing/grabbed, or move-by/move-through, etc.)?

[prestidigitator]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

Well, Desolidification is normally going to grant you "immunity" to most Grabs and Entangles, so you could possibly go with a very limited version of that to simply say, "I am not affected by the Grab/Entangle, except in every way other than it affecting my CV". Since that's a definite benefit in combat, though, some GMs may understandably make you use Affects Physical World (+2) on any attack you could make in that mode.

 

You could also go with Limited OCV and DCV (the Characteristics, not CSLs). But yeah, they'll be halved in the applicable circumstances. And honestly, I think it's okay not to be able to get around that aspect of the system. It's meta-gaming IMO. If you really want to be able to avoid Grabs and Entangles, buy Strength, Martial Maneuvers, Contortionist, and/or use smart tactics to avoid them; if you really want to be unaffected by Surprise, buy something that keeps you from being Surprised (Danger Sense, or maybe just Perception bonuses). Those are the mechanisms in the system that are designed to take care of those situations.

[slaughterj]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

Well' date=' Desolidification is normally going to grant you "immunity" to most Grabs and Entangles, so you could possibly go with a very limited version of that to simply say, "I am not affected by the Grab/Entangle, except in every way other than it affecting my CV". Since that's a definite benefit in combat, though, some GMs may understandably make you use [i']Affects Physical World (+2)[/i] on any attack you could make in that mode.

 

Thanks, but I'm not looking at some sort of immunity to being grabbed, but rather something simple that represents a skilled grappler who isn't flat out exposed when he is doing his signature thing, i.e., grappling.

 

You could also go with Limited OCV and DCV (the Characteristics' date=' not CSLs). But yeah, they'll be halved in the applicable circumstances. And honestly, I think it's okay not to be able to get around that aspect of the system. It's meta-gaming IMO. If you really want to be able to avoid Grabs and Entangles, buy Strength, Martial Maneuvers, Contortionist, and/or use smart tactics to avoid them; if you really want to be unaffected by Surprise, buy something that keeps you from being Surprised (Danger Sense, or maybe just Perception bonuses). Those are the mechanisms in the system that are designed to take care of those situations.[/quote']

 

Surprise DCV halving is well-enough covered by Defense Maneuver, Danger Sense, etc., but the DCV halving or general Combat Maneuver penalties do not appear to get such treatment. I don't think it is metagaming to try to represent your character more effective through game mechanics, whether you are playing The Grappler (who should have an easy way to buy off grappling penalties), The Minotaur (who is particularly proficient in move-by/move-through maneuvers and should have an easy way to reflect that through buying off those penalties), etc. Maybe limited CV or limited skill levels is the solution? But for ones to buy off at least some of the halving aspect, that can still get pretty pricey, even for such a limited use.

[Tasha]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

I would say wait till GenCon when Fantasy Hero is shipped. There are a number of FH talents that mitigate penalties of certain maneuvers. 5e had a bunch of those kind of talents (ie ones that did in Hero what certain Feats did in 3.x D&D.

[prestidigitator]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

I don't think it is metagaming to try to represent your character more effective through game mechanics' date=' whether you are playing The Grappler (who should have an easy way to buy off grappling penalties), The Minotaur (who is particularly proficient in move-by/move-through maneuvers and should have an easy way to reflect that through buying off those penalties), etc. Maybe limited CV or limited skill levels is the solution? But for ones to buy off at least some of the halving aspect, that can still get pretty pricey, even for such a limited use.[/quote']

I agree it's not meta-gaming to try to build a good grappler. Definitely not. What's meta-gaming is trying to get around the mechanics of the system in order to do so (i.e. try to overcome the halving of CV). Remember that your opponents are going to face the same penalties anyway, and just build a good grappler. Use Martial Maneuvers, Limited Strength, CSLs with grappling, etc. It's all right there at your fingertips, and believe me, you can build a character that'll whip people's butts in a grapple.

[pinecone]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

Since PSLs cannot be used to counter Combat Maneuver penalties, is there any other cheap way to address those penalties? How about for other situations like grabbing/being grabbed, etc.?

 

I see Defense Maneuver basically counters certain situational penalties, but are there any other examples of PSL alternatives?

 

Obviously one can buy regular combat skill levels, but I am looking for other alternatives, especially since those get halved as well, IIRC, e.g., in grabs, surprised, etc.?

 

Could one buy regular skill levels and apply limitations so that they only work for certain conditions (e.g., grabbing/grabbed, or move-by/move-through, etc.)?

 

I've always bought Levels with limits, and I don't think I'd change that for 6Th. With a limit or two Combat levels are not too much more than PSL's...

[Netzilla]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

Surprise DCV halving is well-enough covered by Defense Maneuver' date=' Danger Sense, etc., but the DCV halving or general Combat Maneuver penalties do not appear to get such treatment. I don't think it is metagaming to try to represent your character more effective through game mechanics, whether you are playing The Grappler (who should have an easy way to buy off grappling penalties), The Minotaur (who is particularly proficient in move-by/move-through maneuvers and should have an easy way to reflect that through buying off those penalties), etc. Maybe limited CV or limited skill levels is the solution? But for ones to buy off at least some of the halving aspect, that can still get pretty pricey, even for such a limited use.[/quote']

 

Generally, limited CV levels is the way to go for most of this stuff.

 

However, specifically related to grappling (well ground-fighting actually) you can purchase PS: Groundfighting (DEX based) and make a roll to counter the ground fighting penalties (I believe this is discussed in HSMA). To expand on this, I made this post a while ago about creating a groundfighting Talent:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/75130-How-to-build-MMA-Style-Martial-Arts?p=1909402#post1909402

 

You could apply similar logic to creating Talents for other scenarios. You pre-build these talents and offer them up to your players and they've got a simple plug-and-play solution. You, unfortunately, still have to do the up-front work.

[slaughterj]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

Thanks, I'll check that out.

 

How about trying to stat out a Defensive Fighting "talent" for Multiple Attacks:

+2 DCV (effectively only +1 after the halving), Only to counter Multiple Attack DCV penalty (-1?)

 

Is -1 appropriate? Maybe it should be higher, e.g., -1.5 or -2, since this is just one of many possible DCV penalties? For comparison, what penalty would one assess to a more general Defensive Fighting talent like this:

 

+2 DCV, Only to counter DCV penalties (-.5? -1?)

 

Any other limitations warranted for either version?

[prestidigitator]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

How about trying to stat out a Defensive Fighting "talent" for Multiple Attacks:

+2 DCV (effectively only +1 after the halving), Only to counter Multiple Attack DCV penalty (-1?)

 

Being attacked by multiple opponents does not, by itself, halve your DCV. +1 DCV would be sufficient for a significant effect in many situations.

[slaughterj]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

Being attacked by multiple opponents does not' date=' by itself, halve your DCV. +1 DCV would be sufficient for a significant effect in many situations.[/quote']

 

Since being attacked by multiple opponents does not halve DCV, obviously I must have meant something else I'm talking about the 1/2 DCV when you make Multiple Attacks.

[prestidigitator]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

Since being attacked by multiple opponents does not halve DCV' date=' obviously I must have meant something else I'm talking about the 1/2 DCV when you make Multiple Attacks.[/quote']

 

Ah. Okay. Sorry about that. I thought you were talking about reducing the Multiple Attacker DCV penalty (vs. Coordinating attackers) without the high level of Defense Maneuver.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

You know, +5 with HTH Combat does in fact offset quite a bit of that 1/2 DCV.

 

And +5 with (Grabbing Maneuvers) would only be 15 points, yes? It doesn't negate the halving, but it certainly makes your 1/2 DCV much higher than it would have been

[dmjalund]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

You know' date=' +5 with HTH Combat [i']does in fact offset[/i] quite a bit of that 1/2 DCV.

 

And +5 with (Grabbing Maneuvers) would only be 15 points, yes? It doesn't negate the halving, but it certainly makes your 1/2 DCV much higher than it would have been

by 2 levels (and you waste 3 points)

[prestidigitator]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

by 2 levels (and you waste 3 points)

 

Or 3 levels if you happen to have an even DCV without it. Remember the levels all add before halving; you don't halve your DCV and halve the bonus, then add them together.

[Matt Holck]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

I remember reading a passage on grab and control

don't know if that's Ninja Hero or the ultimate martial artists

 

I believe there was a strength contest with penalties for the grabber to manipulate the target

[slaughterj]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

You know' date=' +5 with HTH Combat [i']does in fact offset[/i] quite a bit of that 1/2 DCV.

 

And +5 with (Grabbing Maneuvers) would only be 15 points, yes? It doesn't negate the halving, but it certainly makes your 1/2 DCV much higher than it would have been

 

But would those work when grabbing AND when being grabbed?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

I'm not sure of the rule in 6e right off, but in 5e you couldn't apply limitations to levels that weren't at least 5 point levels (or was that 4e?). Anyway, from a balance standpoint, any limitation you put on the levels should not make them cheaper than what you would have paid for the equivalent PSL.

 

On a slightly different note, if you look at real world martial arts (and the HERO manuevers for them) you will notice that there is no emphasis on having a good defensive position while being grappled, because by definition if you are in a hold you are in a bad position. Rather the focus is getting free. That is why a Martial Escape manuever just gives you +15 STR for breaking the grab, but doesn't affect you DCV. Once you are free, then you can deal with your attacker on equal footing. So if you want a character who is a good grappler, either buy him a Wrestling package or buy him extra STR, only for grapple manuevers.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

I'm not sure of the rule in 6e right off, but in 5e you couldn't apply limitations to levels that weren't at least 5 point levels (or was that 4e?). Anyway, from a balance standpoint, any limitation you put on the levels should not make them cheaper than what you would have paid for the equivalent PSL.

 

On a slightly different note, if you look at real world martial arts (and the HERO manuevers for them) you will notice that there is no emphasis on having a good defensive position while being grappled, because by definition if you are in a hold you are in a bad position. Rather the focus is getting free. That is why a Martial Escape manuever just gives you +15 STR for breaking the grab, but doesn't affect you DCV. Once you are free, then you can deal with your attacker on equal footing. So if you want a character who is a good grappler, either buy him a Wrestling package or buy him extra STR, only for grapple manuevers.

None of which help when you are the grabber and are at 1/2 DCV versus everyone else while using your specialty to grapple someone.

[prestidigitator]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

At the GM’s option, if the Grabber’s STR is 20 or more points higher than the Grabbed character’s STR, change the penalties to the following:

 

Grabber:

• -2 DCV against all attackers (including Grabbed character)
  
• Full OCV against the Grabbed character
  
• -1 OCV against other targets (if attacks are possible at all)
  

 

So it's a question of buying some extra limited Strength and pleading with your GM (though it doesn't really help you if you are the Grabbed character, so your best bet there is, again, enough Str, Contortionist, etc. to break out, maybe even immediately with Casual Str).

[Kraven Kor]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

But would those work when grabbing AND when being grabbed?

 

I would rule yes, but you could easily change it to "+X with HTH (Only while Grappling -1)" for the same cost (actually, a little less since this works out to 2.5 per SL instead of the base 3.)

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

None of which help when you are the grabber and are at 1/2 DCV versus everyone else while using your specialty to grapple someone.

 

Oh. Yeah. Good point. (Doh!)

 

Depending on the STR of the grabber, you could buy TK, no range, only for grappling manuevers, the sfx is you have full DCV while grappling. It wouldn't be cheap for a brick, but for a martial artist with a 20 STR it would only be about 10 real points, and if your GM is nice he will let you use it with your Wrestling package.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

I'm not sure why CSLs are being suggested. I think this is just +X DCV, where X is the max your DCV could normally be, with the limitation that it only applies to counter half DCV from (situation/situations). I think you would need some for of Desolidification to avoid entangles setting you to DCV 0 as mentioned above, though.

[slaughterj]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

On a slightly different note, if you look at real world martial arts (and the HERO manuevers for them) you will notice that there is no emphasis on having a good defensive position while being grappled, because by definition if you are in a hold you are in a bad position. Rather the focus is getting free. That is why a Martial Escape manuever just gives you +15 STR for breaking the grab, but doesn't affect you DCV. Once you are free, then you can deal with your attacker on equal footing. So if you want a character who is a good grappler, either buy him a Wrestling package or buy him extra STR, only for grapple manuevers.

 

But Hero has to deal significantly with Champions, where people often have substantially different strengths. For instance, it would be silly to see Superman at 1/2 DCV for grabbing Lois Lane. I see from the quote above that 6e finally (hadn't seen it before in Hero) an option to somewhat address this situation:

 

"At the GM’s option, if the Grabber’s STR is 20 or more points higher than the Grabbed character’s STR, change the penalties to the following:

 

Grabber:

•-2 DCV against all attackers (including Grabbed character)

•Full OCV against the Grabbed character

•-1 OCV against other targets (if attacks are possible at all)"

 

Though I question whether Superman would have any penalties at all while grabbing Lois Lane (maybe that is a 40 STR point differential optional rule to consider), as it would be much like any of us holding a dead snake, flops around a little, but doesn't actually interfere in any way.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

But Hero has to deal significantly with Champions, where people often have substantially different strengths. For instance, it would be silly to see Superman at 1/2 DCV for grabbing Lois Lane. I see from the quote above that 6e finally (hadn't seen it before in Hero) an option to somewhat address this situation:

 

"At the GM’s option, if the Grabber’s STR is 20 or more points higher than the Grabbed character’s STR, change the penalties to the following:

 

Grabber:

•-2 DCV against all attackers (including Grabbed character)

•Full OCV against the Grabbed character

•-1 OCV against other targets (if attacks are possible at all)"

 

Though I question whether Superman would have any penalties at all while grabbing Lois Lane (maybe that is a 40 STR point differential optional rule to consider), as it would be much like any of us holding a dead snake, flops around a little, but doesn't actually interfere in any way.

 

I hadn't read that bit yet in 6e; thanks for pointing it out. In our games the house rule was if you can maintain the grab with casual STR then you didn't suffer any combat penalties beyond having your arms occupied, although it could be somewhat situational. Lois Lane might not have any chance of breaking away from Superman (as if she'd want to) but she doesn't exactly fit into the palm of his hand either and could get in the way in some circumstances.

[slaughterj]

Re: PSLs, Combat Manuevers, penalties, etc.

 

I hadn't read that bit yet in 6e; thanks for pointing it out. In our games the house rule was if you can maintain the grab with casual STR then you didn't suffer any combat penalties beyond having your arms occupied' date=' although it could be somewhat situational. Lois Lane might not have any chance of breaking away from Superman (as if she'd want to) but she doesn't exactly fit into the palm of his hand either and could get in the way in some circumstances.[/quote']

 

Presumably Superman's casual strength would push her around like humans pushing around dust and wouldn't amount to meaningful combat penalties though. Even with the optional rule, -2 to DCV is still a pretty significant penalty.