Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

[Ice9]

Something I've been wondering about. Let's say you've got a horror/supernatural setting. There are demons, and those demons have the Complication of Susceptibility to Holy Water. There are also monster hunters, who often carry flasks of Holy Water. This is a superheroic game, so equipment is not free. How would those flasks be built?

 

Building it as any kind of attack versus demons seems incorrect, because the demons already took the Complication to take damage from it. If it was something easily available, like a cross, then I'd just say anyone could have it for free. But let's say the item in question is considered difficult to get, and the Complication lists it as "Rare". How many points is a reasonable cost for a flask? And would that be the same number of points as a backpack and sprayer setup that could hose down an entire crypt?

 

Other examples: Kryptonite sword to fight mind-controlled Superman, Faraday-weave clothing in a setting where that blocks mental powers, and a quiver with a full assortment of silver, cold-iron, blessed, and obsidian arrows in a fantasy setting. In all cases, assume superheroic rules and that the foes in question have taken the relevent Complications / Limitations, but probably considered the triggers to be Rare or Very Rare.

 

It's easy enough when it's a PC taking the Complication, but when the shoe's on the other foot, there doesn't seem to be a good answer.

[Nevenall]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Well, the point of Susceptibility is that you take damage from some seemingly ordinary thing (The sort of thing characters don't pay points for). Kryptonite is just another element. A rare element, but still ordinary. Holy Water is really just water. The GM would establish what conditions make it "holy." So, those don't really cost points. Though you could potentially buy a blessing spell that would Transform Water into Holy Water.

Things that affect Susceptibility shouldn't cost Character Points.

 

Now, Vulnerability, that's something different. In that case it depends on the special effects of the powers that you get attacked with.

If a vampire is vulnerable to "holy" attacks, then if someone bought an attack power with the special effect of holy, the vampire would take extra damage.

[dmjalund]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Change Environment is often used to trigger unusual Vulnerabilities (like Kryptonite)

[Ice9]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

As a 1-pt effect? A price based on the rarity? Or what?

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with things like this being free - after all, the targets took the Complications / Limitations. But it does seem a little odd that that there's no mechanical difference between having a bus pass and having a portable dimensional anomaly. Or really, any incentive (besides DM annoyance) not to stock up on every rare material with any useful effects.

[Utech]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

You might want to give John Steakley's Vampir$ a read. It's a fun book about vampire hunters.

 

In response to the holy water question, I think it's just a matter of common sense.

If your monster hunters work for the Vatican, they'll have little trouble getting hold of lots and lots of holy water. (This may change the "rare" portion of the Susceptibility you mentioned, of course.)

If your monster hunters start out with few church connections, they'll need to find a supply of holy water. That could be an adventure until itself. They might end up with a contact who can supply them with a limited amount of the stuff each day/week/month characters can feel free to use or store up.

If your monster hunters are at odds with the church, they'll have a harder time getting a supply of holy water. They might be able to buy some anonymously on the Internet (which may or may not actually be holy water...) or they might have to steal it.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Maybe Holy water should not be considered the same as ordinary water. It's actually ordinary water which has been blessed, or in some other way transformed into holy water. (You see what I did there?)

 

I'd suggest designing a 'spiritual' Transformation Attack power which turns normal water into Holy water. The next question is, what level of Transform is it: trivial, minor, major or extreme? How much water is affected by each use? What's the method for reversing the transformation? (and thus turning the Holy water back into normal water.)

 

Don't look at me,

Xavier Onassiss

 

edited to add more questions: Who can make Holy water? (Ordained priests, or anyone who knows the ritual?) How long does it take? Does it have to be done in a church? What else is required? (I'm not religious, so I don't know these things.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Yeah, I'd say since it isn't "equipment" that has any real game effect without the presence of the Complication, no one would have to pay Character Points to have some. On the other hand, if it's normally rather rare and difficult to obtain and your character can produce it at the drop of a hat, it might be worth a Transform, Change Environment, or possibly a Perk (e.g. membership in some kind of religious organization).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Maybe we have to take a couple of steps back on this. When speaking of player character disadvantages/complications and limitations, we typically stress the fact that they are INTENDED to come up in play, and that, if they will never, or hardly ever, appear, that's not "rare", it's backgroound flavour and generates no points. The same should be true for NPC's - their complications are intended to come up in play.

 

The vast majority of characters in the game world cannot trigger Mighty Man's "not in intense magnetic field" limitation, but MagnetLad can. That doesn't change the frequency related to the limitation, it only establishes who one of the rare few who can take advantage of it might be. Over time, it seems reasonable the PC's in a vampire hunting game would discover, and take advantage of, the weaknesses of their frequent opponents, just like Superman sees a lot more kryptonite in Metropolis once it becomes common knowledge that this stuff affects him.

 

The fact that holy water is rare should logically mean that it is not common in the game world. I like Prestidigitator's suggestion that, perhaps, you need to pay for the ability to create a rare substance or, alternatively, pay for a perk which grants access to this rare substance (such as a contact with a priest who possesses both the ability to create or access holy water in the quantities desired AND the understanding of the monster hunters needed to allow him to hand off quantities in good conscience. Try telling your local priest you need three gallons of holy water!

 

Finally, it is point-free equipment, so it has vulnerabilities like any other mundane substance. What do you carry it in? Vials that shatter on impact when hurled against a vampire also risk shattering when the character is knocked down or falls. Vials sturdy enough to be immune to the trials of the PC carrying them likely bounce off the target, rather than breaking, so he doesn't come into contact with the substance.

 

Perhaps use of Holy Water relies on some respect/belief by the character of the power behind it. That respect isn't there if he's filling a Super Soaker with holy water, is it? Characters who see Holy Water as a missile weapon, not a holy artifact, perhaps cannot use it to the same effect.

 

"Rare" should not mean "nonexistent", and part of the "monster hunter" schtick is knowing that certain rare substances are damaging to their prey. The PC's are likely part of those Rare persons who are able to leverage this weakness against their opponent. Perhaps a wider variety of opponents, not all of whom are affected by holy water, might be in order.

 

Ultimately, however, the rarity is in context of the campaign and campaign world. If the game centers around the Orc Wars, Orc are very common. In another fantasy game, they might be uncommon or rare. Perhaps, in a monster hunter game, holy water is no longer rare, and should generate more complication points. The old chestnut about the werewolf getting a bigger limit for defensive powers that fail against silver because "everyone knows you use silver against a werewolf" might also apply here.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

I would say that since the PCs will likely be carrying flasks of holy water whenever they go into battle, expecting to have reason to use it from time to time, it should not count as free equipment. It's one of the standard HERO rules recommendations for superheroic games, that even mundane items such as flashlights or radios that the characters intend to keep with them most of the time, and use regularly, should not be free.

 

I agree with basic Change Environment as the mechanic to build this with, creating "Area Soaked with Holy Water." There's no unfairness to the demons who bought the Susceptibility, since the Changed Environment will just be wetness to everyone else; and that fact is reflected in the relatively trivial cost to the PCs.

[Utech]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

It's one of the standard HERO rules recommendations for superheroic games' date=' that even mundane items such as flashlights or radios that the characters intend to keep with them most of the time, and use regularly, should not be free.[/quote']

Really? I think that's a bit silly. So long as you're willing to provide everybody in your game world with easy access to flashlights or radios and other mundane items, there's no need to pay for them with character points.

 

looked at from the other side, IMHM an mundane item be paid for with character points is no longer mundane. It is superior.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Well, as I've seen the rationale explained, it's unfair to a super to pay Character Points for the innate ability to for example, generate light, or hear radio broadcasts, when another character can just carry a flashlight or radio for no charge.

[Utech]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Well' date=' as I've seen the rationale explained, it's unfair to a super to pay Character Points for the innate ability to for example, generate light, or hear radio broadcasts, when another character can just carry a flashlight or radio for no charge.[/quote']

Does every NPC also pay character points? Come on, it's silly. If you want your superhero to generate light that's no better than a flashlight, more power to you. Heck, I'll give it to you for free so long as it fits your concept and is no better than a flashlight any other character can pick up for $1. If you want your hero to be able to generate light that's better than a mundane flashlight, you pay for it.

[Tasha]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Maybe Holy water should not be considered the same as ordinary water. It's actually ordinary water which has been blessed' date=' or in some other way [i']transformed[/i] into holy water. (You see what I did there?)

 

I'd suggest designing a 'spiritual' Transformation Attack power which turns normal water into Holy water. The next question is, what level of Transform is it: trivial, minor, major or extreme? How much water is affected by each use? What's the method for reversing the transformation? (and thus turning the Holy water back into normal water.)

 

Don't look at me,

Xavier Onassiss

 

edited to add more questions: Who can make Holy water? (Ordained priests, or anyone who knows the ritual?) How long does it take? Does it have to be done in a church? What else is required? (I'm not religious, so I don't know these things.)

 

IRL it's kind of funny, but the ritual to make Holy Water is really so minor as to be quite a letdown. I have witnessed more than one priest (one Catholic and another Protestant) make some. They take water from the tap, and say a prayer over it. (The catholic priest may have made the sign of the cross over the water, I don't remember). Then it's holy water. I remember asking in a kind of disbelieving way "was that it" and the priest said that yeah that how one makes holy water. The funny thing was that he was even using a regular drinking glass when he made it (It was a clean cup, but nothing else remarkable about the "vessel".

[Tasha]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Something I've been wondering about. Let's say you've got a horror/supernatural setting. There are demons, and those demons have the Complication of Susceptibility to Holy Water. There are also monster hunters, who often carry flasks of Holy Water. This is a superheroic game, so equipment is not free. How would those flasks be built?

 

Building it as any kind of attack versus demons seems incorrect, because the demons already took the Complication to take damage from it. If it was something easily available, like a cross, then I'd just say anyone could have it for free. But let's say the item in question is considered difficult to get, and the Complication lists it as "Rare". How many points is a reasonable cost for a flask? And would that be the same number of points as a backpack and sprayer setup that could hose down an entire crypt?

 

Other examples: Kryptonite sword to fight mind-controlled Superman, Faraday-weave clothing in a setting where that blocks mental powers, and a quiver with a full assortment of silver, cold-iron, blessed, and obsidian arrows in a fantasy setting. In all cases, assume superheroic rules and that the foes in question have taken the relevent Complications / Limitations, but probably considered the triggers to be Rare or Very Rare.

 

It's easy enough when it's a PC taking the Complication, but when the shoe's on the other foot, there doesn't seem to be a good answer.

 

Perhaps have the Holy water be a 1d6RKA AOE 1hex (for a large vial) OAF (Holy Water vessel) Fragile, Only vs Unholy Creatures -1/4 (seeing as they are the focus of the campaign they are common), X Charges. etc

 

I would just define at the front how certain items enchance base damage against the creatures they were designed to defeat. ie. Blessed Holy Silver Bullets might add +1d6 RKA to damage vs unholy creatures (on top of the creature's suceptability). Anything that enchances weapon damage should be paid for. The fact that the creature has a specific complication that enchances the item is irrelevant.

[dmjalund]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

IRL it's kind of funny' date=' but the ritual to make Holy Water is really so minor as to be quite a letdown. I have witnessed more than one priest (one Catholic and another Protestant) make some. They take water from the tap, and say a prayer over it. (The catholic priest may have made the sign of the cross over the water, I don't remember). Then it's holy water. I remember asking in a kind of disbelieving way "was that it" and the priest said that yeah that how one makes holy water. The funny thing was that he was even using a regular drinking glass when he made it (It was a clean cup, but nothing else remarkable about the "vessel".[/quote']Of course whether it works against the undead may depend on the strength of the priest's faith

[prestidigitator]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

We could go all the way to the extreme of saying that there should be no Susceptibilities at all in Superheroic games, I guess. Taking damage from something that doesn't normally cause damage doesn't fit in a framework in which everything costs points. So make all of these things Vulnerabilities instead, and require the giving end to buy an attack with a limitation (e.g. "Only vs. Creatures Vulnerable to Holy Water").

[torchwolf]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Perhaps have the Holy water be a 1d6RKA AOE 1hex (for a large vial) OAF (Holy Water vessel) Fragile, Only vs Unholy Creatures -1/4 (seeing as they are the focus of the campaign they are common), X Charges. etc

 

I would just define at the front how certain items enchance base damage against the creatures they were designed to defeat. ie. Blessed Holy Silver Bullets might add +1d6 RKA to damage vs unholy creatures (on top of the creature's suceptability). Anything that enchances weapon damage should be paid for. The fact that the creature has a specific complication that enchances the item is irrelevant.

I agree.

Any weapon used against a character (PC or NPC) that has Susceptibility and/or Vulnerability against an sfx the weapon uses would just increase the base damage purchased for the weapon, normally; multiplying the damage for a Vulnerability PLUS causing additional effects from the Susceptibility.

Starting with defining what effect Holy Water has in general against demonic/supernatural beings makes the other issues easier to resolve, like any campaign-specific ground rule. This would probably apply to any and all special items or substances expected to come into play frequently.

 

Another aspect of Susceptibilities and Vulnerabilities:

Threatening a demon with holy water (or a werewolf with silver, etc.) would reasonably provide a bonus to PRE Attacks (another ability that might or might not be included in "free" equipment, but should probably be paid for if used with great frequency).

 

 

There are some other issues though - forgive me for (re)stating the obvious in the interest of maintained line of thought:

In a superheroic campaign it's always about what the GM defines as "free", but in cases like this it definitely gives PCs an edge against their supposed opponents.

Either restricting such equipment through limiting availability, increasing the frequency of breakage/malfunctions, or adding a special requirement for exactly who can "bless water" etc. can work.

 

Some ordinary equipment can replace point-purchased abilities to a degree (like the cell phone in a recent thread), and the only equitable way to resolve that fairly (without calculating point values for absolutely everything) is GM discretion.

However, using the Resource Points rules in the APG (or Dark Champions I believe for 5ER) as either a guideline or fully applied as a rule helps a superheroic GM considerably in adjudicating these issues.

 

Of course, it only matters for any equipment that PCs actually use during adventures; anyone should be able to have a car to drive to their Secret ID job without spending points on a Vehicle (as long as they don't abuse this to chase down demons in their bulletproofed Vector V2).

 

Still, players should get the benefit of using opponent's weaknesses, be it by carrying holy water balloons to throw at demons, maneuvering demons onto holy ground, brandishing crucifixes, or what have you, but should probably only discover from experience exactly what works, etc.

Holy water may not stay holy forever if subjected to demonic surroundings, holy ground might have been desecrated, a PCs religious belief may not prove strong enough to wield a religious or holy symbol to any noticeable effect, and so on.

 

 

I don't really see an issue with Susceptibility here - just as a Vulnerability, it applies to a specific situation and/or sfx, and the appropriate values depend on Frequency, neither relates to the potential abilities of whatever triggers the Susceptibility or Vulnerability.

Situations or sfx that cause game effects need game mechanical definitions whenever values are needed, just like everything else.

The Physical Complications/Limitations "Blocked By Magical Circles" or "Must Obey Caster That Knows True Name" also needs at least some minor consideration by the GM, just as Holy Ground needs a brief definition for what qualifies (a church, a graveyard, Stonehenge, an Ancient Burial Ground?).

 

Obviously, no GM in their right mind would attempt to anticipate all possible situations (unless Dr Manhattan GMs, but I'm unsure of his state of mind anyway), so YMMV.

The central issue is maintaining consistency... or rather: Perceived Consistency.

[AlHazred]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

This is a legitimate question that comes up because of a particular optional Hero System mechanic. The problem exists when one plays Dark Champions and uses the Resource Points method of allocating resources. According to this method, you have a pool of points which has to contain all of your equipment (guns, armor, radios, etc.) that you don't pay for yourself.

 

How does one define mundane substances in this mechanic? Water, for instance, is a completely mundane substance that isn't worth any points. However, if I apply the Dark Champions mechanic to my "realistic" Star Hero campaign "Let's Try To Survive Alone On Mars," then it becomes a resource that has to be carefully husbanded. I'm using the Resource Point mechanic to limit my High Fantasy PCs' access to magic items; how do I define holy water in this regard? Is it a consumable (I don't require players to list consumables in their Resource Pools, so long as they don't abuse it)? What about wooden crosses and stakes?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

How does one define mundane substances in this mechanic? Water' date=' for instance, is a completely mundane substance that isn't worth any points.[/quote']

 

Care to test that hypothesis by starting a thread on modeling water? I bet we'd come up with all kinds of interesting Life Support, Change Environment, etc., builds. Oh wait. We did that just a couple weeks ago (filling a room with water). We've gone overboard on spoons and all kinds of other odd bits too. I bet if we really worked at it, we could come up with a build for water that described just about anything reasonable you could do with it, and a 400 point superhero might not even be able to afford it. "My super power? I'm a guy walking around with a waterskin. Really."

 

I think the answer is, "Be reasonable." Make people pay for everything? Not even reasonable in a straight superheroic clean room.

[Ice9]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

I would just define at the front how certain items enhance base damage against the creatures they were designed to defeat. ie. Blessed Holy Silver Bullets might add +1d6 RKA to damage vs unholy creatures (on top of the creature's susceptibility). Anything that enhances weapon damage should be paid for. The fact that the creature has a specific complication that enhances the item is irrelevant.

But what about having a Susceptibility to something that's ordinarily harmless? If an alien exists with a Susceptibility to water, does that mean an ordinary canteen should now be bought as "1d6 RKA vs Aliens allergic to water"? Which would actually result in the alien in question taking 1d6 plus whatever their Susceptibility was. It seems like in this model, the Vulnerability / Susceptibility complication wouldn't even exist, because the attacker is already paying for every SFX interaction.

[Palmate]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

I thought it was pretty clear in 6e book. you select the Susceptibility, select the damage taken (1d6, 2d6, etc.) and go with it. I think you are making this more than it has to be. If a creature has a Susceptibility to holy water (uncommon) at 1d6, then ANYONE with holy water can use it on it to the tune of 1d6 damage... now what it takes to make water holy water is up to the gm; it can be a person with a perk saying this is holy water, it can be a minor transform, heck it could be water held by someone with a Talent: Faith... it is entirely up to the GM. that said the frequency of the Susceptibility should be taken into acocunt as to how easy it is to create - imo.

 

just something to think about.

 

Palmate

[prestidigitator]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Now what it takes to make water holy water is up to the gm; it can be a person with a perk saying this is holy water' date=' it can be a minor transform, heck it could be water held by someone with a Talent: Faith... it is entirely up to the GM. that said the frequency of the Susceptibility should be taken into acocunt as to how easy it is to create - imo.[/quote']

Yeah, that's basically the part we've been debating about. Which is reasonable in what type of campaign.

[Palmate]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

True enough. Just came to the game a bit late I guess. Prestigitator, you said it best when you said: be reasonable. Hero is a tool kit, if you work hard enough and don't mind the cost of the points you can build just about anything, the real question comes down to game style, and the GM. seriously if you are a super villain and you drown some one, do you have to pay for the pool/water etc... ??? I don't think that is reasonable or dramatic. if you are going against a vampire and he is Susceptible to holy water, the character should not have to buy holy water, now if the PC wanted to have extremely potent holy water (blessed by the Pope, or whatever) maybe he should buy that as a 1d6 RKA SFX Holy water, only vs undead. At that point using the potent holy water on the vampire would do (in my game, ymmv) 1d6 killing, plus the susceptibility damage.

Now the real question, am I just restating everything from the first two pages of this thread?

Palmate

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Things that trigger Complications / Limitations

 

Late to the party myself.

 

I agree that people are overthinking it. If you had a villain that had Vulnerability to Fire, and a superhero with fire-based SFX, it's triggered. If that same superhero with the same Powers had light-based, or water-based, or sound-based, SFX, it wouldn't -- for no difference in point cost to the superhero.

 

Base it entirely on the rarity. If the villain has Susceptibility to Holy Water (rare) then holy water is rare. Acquiring it should be a difficult proposition. But it shouldn't take points to do so, although Skills, Contacts, Fringe Benefits, etc. could and should help. Also, from a villain design standpoint; if one of the PCs is a priest, and can churn out holy water at will, then the villain's Susceptibility could very well be very common.