Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

[lendrick]

Mods: I accidentally posted this in the Rules Questions forum. Please delete it there.

 

Greets!

 

I've just started running a sci-fi campaign and I'd like to put together a weapon that does knockback with no BODY damage, or at least very little. I realize there are a number of different ways to do this, but I'd like some input as to what would be best.

 

The weapon is a shoulder-mounted gun called a Kinetic Pulse Cannon, and its main purpose is to essentially throw people and objects a fair distance. Actually getting hit by the kinetic blast shouldn't hurt much more than having a person throw you, although the landing could presumably cause injury, depending on what you hit.

 

The solution I'm favoring thus far doesn't actually involve the Does Knockback modifier at all, but instead uses 20 STR Telekinesis with a 2/3 limitation (only usable for throwing things directly away from you) and an endurance battery to store charges. It seems preferable manipulating Knockback into doing what I want it to, and it keeps the damage fairly low (4d6 normal damage).

 

Thoughts? Any better ideas? I feel a bit odd essentially subverting the knockback system, but it seems like it basically requires a lot of damage to be done, which isn't really what I want.

 

Bart

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

One of the issues with basing such an ability on Telekinesis is that a Throw* vs. a character first requires a successful Grab (6e2, page 80).

 

Here's a link to how I've built a similar ability for Jedi.

 

*A non-Martial Throw at least. A Martial Throw does not require a grab first.

I have no idea how to incorporate that into a weapon though.

[Jas]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

If you base it off of an attack, and the defender has damage negation, does it also negate the knockback potential? If so, TK sounds like a very good solution.

 

That said, TK, without an appropriate limitation, will make Knockback Resistance useless against this attack - that is, if 6E has KB Resistance anymore. I'm new to that version, and barely had 5E under my belt.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

If you base it off of an attack, and the defender has damage negation, does it also negate the knockback potential? If so, TK sounds like a very good solution.

 

That said, TK, without an appropriate limitation, will make Knockback Resistance useless against this attack - that is, if 6E has KB Resistance anymore. I'm new to that version, and barely had 5E under my belt.

 

1. Damage Negation does reduce KB potential

2. Whether KB Resistance applies works exactly the same as if the a character were grabbing and throwing the target. TK is just STR Usable at Range.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

I'll steal Derek's idea...1d6 Drain On Knockback Resistance with Does Knockback then Double Knockback multiple times. It is really cheap and throws the person WAY back.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

Xd6 Blast, "Only to deal Knockback -2"?

 

Then you roll to-hit, roll the damage, count up BODY, deal no damage, and roll KB vs. the BODY rolled on the damage dice?

 

Why not add x4 KB on there while you are at it?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

Applying the Does KB Advantage to a non-damaging power is a viable approach but Steve L. has ruled that if the target isn't affected by the base power then they take no KB.

(So in John's example above, if they have no KB Resistance, no KB is done).

You can always house rule around this.

Another option is to just apply a custom Limitation to a standard Blast (like Only to do KB @ -1).

[lendrick]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

I'm a bit nervous about applying double knockback (particularly multiple times) because of that big red stop sign.

 

Also, it might help to imagine this as a body-sized "wave" of force that hits more like a shove than a brick wall. I would think that knockback as written would tend to apply more to, say, a shotgun blast to the chest.

[Jas]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

If it really is a "Kinetic Pulse" you may want to reconsider whether or not it does do damage. If you hit someone with a kinetic pulse hard enough to throw them across the parking lot, it's probably hitting hard enough to do some STUN damage at the very least.

 

If you're "imparting kinetic energy" then the TK solution sounds like it might be better in terms of effect, but harder to deal with with the whole grab before toss rules.

[Ice9]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

Well, you could always stick in Martial Throw (Only with Kinetic Pulse; -1/2) as an adder to the weapon.

 

Yeah sure, there's the 10 point rule. However:

A) In a specialized case like this, most GMs would be ok with waiving that.

If not, most characters can benefit from martial arts anyway.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

I had a villain in my old campaign with a Sonic Shockwave Canon -- one of its powers was a Flash (Hearing-based) with the Does Knockback and Double Knockback advantages. (Plus a Cone AoE!) The nice thing about this build is that the hearing flash is relatively harmless -- it just deafens the targets for a few segments -- but since hearing-based Flash is only 3pts per d6, it didn't cost much to get lots of dice and send people (and anything else!) flying everywhere.

 

In 6th edition, Does Knockback, X2 Knockback, and Explosion/Cone (32m) add up to only a +1 advantage, so that's just 6pts per d6. Fire away!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

I had a villain in my old campaign with a Sonic Shockwave Canon -- one of its powers was a Flash (Hearing-based) with the Does Knockback and Double Knockback advantages. (Plus a Cone AoE!) The nice thing about this build is that the hearing flash is relatively harmless -- it just deafens the targets for a few segments -- but since hearing-based Flash is only 3pts per d6, it didn't cost much to get lots of dice and send people (and anything else!) flying everywhere.

 

In 6th edition, Does Knockback, X2 Knockback, and Explosion/Cone (32m) add up to only a +1 advantage, so that's just 6pts per d6. Fire away!

 

Except that by RAW a deaf character would ignore the Knockback.

(I don't necessarily agree with this ruling but there it is)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

I've always favored the Touch Flash approach, m'self (Does KB, x2 KB etc.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

While I think Damage Negation isn't SUPPOSED to affect Knockback, the wording is pretty bad. 6E1 p. 183 says, "Calculate the Knockback (if applicable) from the damage the attacker actually rolls, not from the DCs of the attack before Subtraction." Well, the damage the attacker, "actually rolls," already has the DCs from Damage Negation removed from them (that's what makes DN a stupid Defense Power with too much back-and-forth between attacker and defender IMO). I think the spirit is to use the same amount of Knockback as if the DN weren't there, but the description wasn't very well thought out.

 

I'd go with Limited TK, personally. Limit it to maneuvers such as Throw, Trip, and Shove.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

Except that by RAW a deaf character would ignore the Knockback.

(I don't necessarily agree with this ruling but there it is)

 

 

Very good point. This didn't come up in play, but it could have.

 

AmadanNaBriona's suggestion of using a touch-based Flash is excellent. I'd still use the above construction, and add 'normal touch' for 3pts.

 

You're both getting some rep, here.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

While I think Damage Negation isn't SUPPOSED to affect Knockback' date=' the wording is pretty bad. 6E1 p. 183 says, "Calculate the Knockback (if applicable) from the damage the attacker actually rolls, not from the DCs of the attack before Subtraction." Well, the damage the attacker, "actually rolls," already has the DCs from Damage Negation removed from them (that's what makes DN a stupid Defense Power with too much back-and-forth between attacker and defender IMO). I think the spirit is to use the same amount of Knockback as if the DN weren't there, but the description wasn't very well thought out.[/quote']

I'm not sure how, but you are reading that backwards. Your quote from the book very clearly says Knockback is based on the damage rolled not on the original DCs of the attack prior to adjusting for the Damage Negation. You then turn around and say DN doesn't apply to Knockback which would mean you would have to roll the full original DC of the attack just to figure out Knockback. That makes no sense.

Damage Negation applies to Knockback at the same time it applies to every other aspect of the attack (STUN, BODY, Effect), before the roll is made.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

Very good point. This didn't come up in play, but it could have.

 

AmadanNaBriona's suggestion of using a touch-based Flash is excellent. I'd still use the above construction, and add 'normal touch' for 3pts.

 

You're both getting some rep, here.

 

fyi,

Even basing the Flash on the Touch sense group has the same problem. By RAW it won't work vs. targets that lack a sense of touch.

 

All this begs the question "why does whether or not a target has a sense have anything to do with taking KB or not?" It makes no sense to me.

Just disallowing the application of "Does KB" to Flash and Dispel would make more sense imho.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

I'm not sure how' date=' but you are reading that backwards.[/quote']

Oh. Wait. You're right. The last part of the quote confused me somehow. Okay. So Damage Negation DOES reduce Knockback, unlike any other Defense Power. Yet another way it is a black sheep of a Power.

[Mickael]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

I haven't the book in front of me, but isn't it possible to create a Blast AVAD (Defense is Knockback resistance), with Double Knockback?

[ned-kogar]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

The weapon is a shoulder-mounted gun called a Kinetic Pulse Cannon' date=' and its main purpose is to essentially throw people and objects a fair distance. Actually getting hit by the kinetic blast shouldn't hurt much more than having a person throw you, although the landing could presumably cause injury, depending on what you hit.[/quote']

 

There've been lots of interesting thoughts on this so far, but can I just check: say there's a man standing in front of a plate glass window, and he gets hit with the Kinetic Pulse Cannon - is only he hit, and the only reason the window smashes is that he is thrown through it? Or is the window smashed regardless of whether he hits it? If aimed directly at the window, would it break it?

 

I guess I'm asking if it's a 'beam' that targets an individual, or a 'wave' that fans out from the cannon. And also whether it's a carefully calibrated, Stun Only, non-damaging to the environment weapon.

 

Ned

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

As clever as the Flash Does Knockback powers are, they just rub me the wrong way; if I get hit hard enough by a sonic boom to be thrown even a few meters backward, the concussion wave that did that should feel like getting hit by a brick wall and that is going to hurt. To me that is a sonic Flash linked to a Blast doing Double Knockback, but one can only apply so much reality to a fantasy game, so if it works for you go with it.

 

I would favor the TK with AoE approach myself, esp. since the description sounds like the wave picks you up and throws you rather than smacking you hard enough to send you flying. If it hits something like a window along the way, just apply the STR of the TK to the window like an attack to see if it breaks or not. The Flash Does KB power won't affect the window at all since it has no senses to be Flashed.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

Why is Xd6 Blast, "Only to deal Knockback (-1)" not the go-to solution? It is simple, elegant... doesn't break any rules or require any extra thought... you don't have to check the Strength table to see if the TK is strong enough to lift the target, or to determine how far you can throw the target... just count BODY, roll KB, done.

 

Not trying to toot my own horn or anything, just seemed like the natural way to do this.

 

"Keep it simple, stupid."

[Ice9]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

It works fine as long as you don't care about the active points. But if you're sticking it in a Multipower, suddenly you have a power where the (active) cost is out of scale with the benefits.

For instance, if you had a multi-mode weapon:

 

Kinetic Projector - 60 point Multipower

1) Kinetic Spike - 4d6 RKA

2) Kinetic Blast - 12d6 Blast

3) Kinetic Wave - 12d6 Blast, Only to deal Knockback

 

You either have to give up the damage for no benefit, or make your pool twice as big as you actually need just for that one power.

The benefit to working from a Flash base is that the Active Points already match the utility without limitations, so it works in or out of a framework.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

It works fine as long as you don't care about the active points. But if you're sticking it in a Multipower, suddenly you have a power where the (active) cost is out of scale with the benefits.

For instance, if you had a multi-mode weapon:

 

Kinetic Projector - 60 point Multipower

1) Kinetic Spike - 4d6 RKA

2) Kinetic Blast - 12d6 Blast

3) Kinetic Wave - 12d6 Blast, Only to deal Knockback

 

You either have to give up the damage for no benefit, or make your pool twice as big as you actually need just for that one power.

The benefit to working from a Flash base is that the Active Points already match the utility without limitations, so it works in or out of a framework.

 

One benefit of the cost changes in 6e (x2 KB is now +1/2 instead of +3/4) is that you can do:

4) Kinetic Wave - 8d6 Blast, x2 KB (60 active) Only to deal Knockback

 

But I agree it still seems kludgy, just not as bad as it used to be.

[dmjalund]

Re: Weapon that does knockback with no damage?

 

If you want to do a sonic cannon. Best if you have a nd6 blast that only does Knockback connected to a Flash attack. so the knockback doesn't depend on the targets ability to hear