Brain in a box

[TheFool1972]

Hullo!

 

After buying the 5th ed. toolkit, I have a question:

 

What would be the point value of being effectivly quadriplegic?

 

I have a character that is basically a brain-in-a-box . He (it?) will have a cyberjack (3 points) that allows him to connect to an armored robotic power suit.

 

He will have zero mobility while outsite the suit, and only have a speaker, mic, and camera turret to interact with the world.

 

What say you? I came up with basically a 50 point disadvantage. I'm not sure if i'm shortchanging it though...

 

The Fool.

"Don't 'be patient' me! I'm a @*#*$ paperweight!"

[Steve Long]

Since this isn't a rules question so much as a "system usage" question, I've moved it to the Discussion board. What do you think, Herodom Assembled?

[Wormhole]

How exactly did you come to 50 points? AFAIK, the maximum possible value of any one Physical Limitation (which is the category that covers this sort of thing) is 25 points.

 

As for what value I as GM would give you for it, since your character has the robotic body to replace the natural body he has lost, it would be somewhat less than what it would otherwise be- and that's only if there's some credible reason for the brain to be outside the body a significant percentage of the time.

[Chris Goodwin]

In my game, the frequency of the Disadvantage would be roughly equal to the frequency with which you were out of the suit.

[Blue Jogger]

Being a quadripedic in the Real World with no super gadgets and other stuff is a major pain. That means you have No Hands and Unable To Walk and that's roughly (25+20) 45 points. Oddly enough, you can't take 45 points of physical limitations (and thus be a real quadripedic) unless you are Superhero.

 

Being a quadripedic in a world where you can jack into a robot. Hmm.

How often can you NOT use the robot to be your hands? Infrequently. Ok. How often can you NOT use the robot to move yourself around? Infrequently. Ok. That makes it roughly (15+15) 30 points. Remember there's a 50 point cap on this (if you are a Superhero). And without your robot, life's pretty boring. Hope that you can still work the remote for the TV.

 

Some would say that's not fair. You're still a quadripedic. Yes, but most of the time, you can jack in and choose not be. When you want to be and you can't, that's when the disadvantage kicks in.

 

However, if the robot's a secret. You can still collect disability.

[Dust Raven]

50 Points is far too high...especially if he has a robot body at his disposal.

 

I ran a short game a while back with a character as you describe. He usually stayed in his body and was only in the "brain in a jar" state if someone forcibly removed him (or they were running tests back at HQ or someting). It was bought as a Physical LImitation: Brain Box can be removed (infrequently, fully) for 15 points.

 

Another way to do it, especially if someone takes the brain box for walks a lot, is to write up the normal character inside the robot body, and then write up the brain as a Duplicate. This is really only worth it if the brain box is still aware of his surroundings and can do some things (even if it's only communicate). I'd even rate the Duplicate as identical, because he is except for the loss of certain abilities...the only new thing he gets is a small size.

[TheFool1972]

Quote:

"I'd even rate the Duplicate as identical, because he is except for the loss of certain abilities...the only new thing he gets is a small size."

 

Umn, wanna bet?

 

The brain box of course has all of the skills and basic mental attributes of the character. Also has most of the basic flaws and perks.

 

The robot body is a combat suit of power armor in humanoid form, about 8 feet tall and over a ton in weight.

 

He has to be out of the chassie for regular maintence and repair, and tends to get forcfully ejected if his body takes too much damage, due to the safety systems built into the body.

 

Side note: Wait... You don't get as much because you have a robot body? What about a character that can move normally and interact with the world with a power suit? Why even take the brain-in-the-box concept? Sorry, the suit should count as a tool in this case. He has no built in powers to the box to overcome his disability. Otherwise, you have to start penalizing characters who buy armor because they don't have it naturally...

 

The Fool

"I'll take point, use me as cover."

[Talon]

Originally posted by TheFool1972

Side note: Wait... You don't get as much because you have a robot body? What about a character that can move normally and interact with the world with a power suit? Why even take the brain-in-the-box concept? Sorry, the suit should count as a tool in this case. He has no built in powers to the box to overcome his disability. Otherwise, you have to start penalizing characters who buy armor because they don't have it naturally...

 

Of course the Disadvantage is less if you have a robot body you regularly use.

 

Take the Physical Limitation Extremely Nearsighted. The character has quadruple range penalties to sight PER rolls (so that seeing something at 8" requires a PER roll at -8). Taking this Limitation in a fantasy game is probably worth 15 points (Frequently, Greatly Impairing).

 

Now have a character in a modern game take the Limitation. They can wear glasses to correct their vision, so the disad becomes 10 points (Infrequently, Greatly Impairing).

 

The overall circumstances of the character always affect the value of the disad. In the case of the brain/robot scenario, you and the GM need to decide how often this will actually be a disad, and therefore how much it is worth.

[eepjr24]

Originally posted by TheFool1972

The robot body is a combat suit of power armor in humanoid form, about 8 feet tall and over a ton in weight.

 

He has to be out of the chassie for regular maintence and repair, and tends to get forcfully ejected if his body takes too much damage, due to the safety systems built into the body.

 

Side note: Wait... You don't get as much because you have a robot body? What about a character that can move normally and interact with the world with a power suit? Why even take the brain-in-the-box concept? Sorry, the suit should count as a tool in this case. He has no built in powers to the box to overcome his disability. Otherwise, you have to start penalizing characters who buy armor because they don't have it naturally...

 

The Fool

"I'll take point, use me as cover."

 

Adressing your points:

 

Robot is 8 feet tall and weighs over a ton. Okay, so that keeps him out of most buildings with more than one floor, and probably off of any grounds that he doesn't want to pay for. Unless you buy flight or other offseeting powers.

 

Brain gets ejected. Okay, you didn't specify that one in the original. How much DEF does the robot body have? How does that compare to the campaign average damage? How much does the suit have to take to force ejection?

 

You need to really think about how much this actually stops the character from doing things he wants/needs to do. Otherwise you are just trying to squeeze points from a concept. I would probably go with something like this:

 

PhysLim: Brain can be removed from power suit (Inf, Fully) 15

Social: Brain in a box, limited social interactions due to large bulky body and non-human appearance. 10? 15?

Maybe that should be a DF instead?

 

Essentially, the times I see this limiting you is in damage to structures when in robot body, maintenance times (could be bought as dependence if frequent), or when forcibly ejected. You didn't give us enough info to judge the last item yet, and may have powers that offset the first item. The Phys Lim, DF (or Social) and Dependence could get you 50 points or close to it, but in my campaign you would definetly have some explaining to make sure I understood how it limited you.

 

- Ernie

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by eepjr24

You need to really think about how much this actually stops the character from doing things he wants/needs to do. Otherwise you are just trying to squeeze points from a concept.

I don't completely agree there. I think Disadvantages are as much about your character concept, story devices, and quirks, as they are about seriously limiting your character. True, they should limit your character, but I think they have as much role in concept as anything.

 

I would be more generous with the Disadvantage than others are conceeding, I believe. You could take it as any level of Disadvantage(s), IMHO. Probably if you got 50 points out of it, then you couldn't eat or sleep in your suit, you wouldn't be able to enter the mall without doing major property damage, law enforcement (maybe even the military or other superheros) would show up if you went to the park in it without there being an obvious threat....

 

Expect severe Disadvantages to majorly affect the plot, and be taken advantage of quite often by your GM. If your superheros often see trouble and have to react when they are having a team meeting in McDonald's or hanging out at the movies, you are going to be rather put out ("Hey guys? Could one of you give me a lift back to the base so I can suit up? I'll be back in 20 minutes or so...?" or, "Crap! I was in the middle of calling my suit to me, and the remote fell off the back of my wheelchair. Ah, help someone?").

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by TheFool1972

Quote:

"I'd even rate the Duplicate as identical, because he is except for the loss of certain abilities...the only new thing he gets is a small size."

 

Umn, wanna bet?

Sure.

 

On page 101 of FREd: "You may build Dupliates on less than the base character's full points if you want; this does not require an Advantage."

 

Since there is the change of one Disadvantage (small size) and one Power (extra DCV), combined with the severe limitations inherant in the brain box, I'd so it still doesn't require an Advantage. Of course, if you want to built it "by the book" it would still only be a +1/4.

 

The brain box of course has all of the skills and basic mental attributes of the character. Also has most of the basic flaws and perks.

 

The robot body is a combat suit of power armor in humanoid form, about 8 feet tall and over a ton in weight.

 

He has to be out of the chassie for regular maintence and repair, and tends to get forcfully ejected if his body takes too much damage, due to the safety systems built into the body.

 

Using Duplication, you'd buy the full Robot, complete with Brain Box as the base character. Then you buy the just the Brain Box as the Duplicate. But a Limitation on the Duplication Power, or a Disadvantage on the Robot to simulte that the Robot form becomes innoperable if the Brain Box is removed. You can also put an Accidental Change to simulate the Brain Box automatically ejecting under certain circumstances (such as taking a certain about of damage).

 

Side note: Wait... You don't get as much because you have a robot body? What about a character that can move normally and interact with the world with a power suit? Why even take the brain-in-the-box concept? Sorry, the suit should count as a tool in this case. He has no built in powers to the box to overcome his disability. Otherwise, you have to start penalizing characters who buy armor because they don't have it naturally...

 

The Fool

"I'll take point, use me as cover."

 

Keep in mind that buying Powers that make up for Disadvantages reduce the value of the Disads. A good example is taking No Arms or Legs, and then taking Telekinesis with Fine Manipulation and some Flight. That No Arms or Legs is still a valid Disad, but not worth as much as it would be on a character without the TK abilities. It should be rated on how often it occures, and how limiting it actually is. A Disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't worth any points.

[prestidigitator]

I don't really like the Duplication approach. They aren't truely seperate characters with seperate minds. If anything, I think it would be more like Multiform, since they never act independently.

 

However, I still think that Disadvantages on the character (maybe but not necessarily reduced ones), along with a lot of OIF/OIHID powers or a vehicle, work best.

[prestidigitator]

I think just about any (super)hero is going to have some way of overcoming his/her Disadvantages (particularly Physical Limitations), just not perfectly and/or in all situations. Otherwise characters would never take this form of Disadvantage, because they would be stomped into the ground every time.

 

I had a mentalist who was mute. I believe his Diadvantage was reduced from what I would give another character, but he was still limited: most characters wouldn't completely let down their guard so he could Mind Link; it's a pain in the ass, and pretty offensive, to use Telepathy or Mind Control....

[Farkling]

Going by the description I have one question as a GM...

 

Wait...let me put it in here::

The brain box of course has all of the skills and basic mental attributes of the character. Also has most of the basic flaws and perks.

 

The robot body is a combat suit of power armor in humanoid form, about 8 feet tall and over a ton in weight.

 

He has to be out of the chassie for regular maintence and repair, and tends to get forcfully ejected if his body takes too much damage, due to the safety systems built into the body.

 

Duplication is DEFINITELY the wrong approach...though there ARE two physical structures existing, that can become one component structure. So Multiform is out. I ask you to consider this fellow GameMasters:

He has to be out of the chassie for regular maintence and repair, and tends to get forcfully ejected if his body takes too much damage, due to the safety systems built into the body.

That's a vehicle description if I ever saw one. Though it has some funky disads ::

"No Pilot Compartment - requires BrainBox to Function" - (Physical Limitation)

"Ejects BrianBox (14-) when BODY total drops below 5" - (Physical Limitation or Susceptibility - loosely based on Berserk mechanics)

"Susceptible to Malfunction from Electrical Discharges" (Susceptible manifesting as No Conscious Control or just Unluck)

"DF:: Oversized Humanoid Mechanical (8ft tall, heavily armored)"

"Weighs 800kg" (Physicla Limitation)

 

Any reason it SHOULDn't be a vehicle?

I'm picturing Box of Alpha Flight, or Doug/Warlock combination from New Mutants, or that short lived Gizmo character...

[TheFool1972]

Actually, his robot chassie IS basically a powersuit/vehicle. This problem is not in building it, but in the building of rules for the character itself.

 

He's a brain... In a box... And has one weeks life support (total) without "recharging"... (That counts power, nutrients, and waste disposal.)

 

His "body" has all of the components needs to convert normal food to the nutrient feed, (for longterm combat ops). He also has a device that connect direct to the box for the same use, in case the body is O3ed (out of order).

 

Please understand, I'm not trying to get better point values for this character. He is an NPC. There is no way I would allow this thing out with a normal player. His point value is so high above the rest of the group it would be silly.

 

What I do want, is to understand the point valuing system better. Let's get right down to it: If not having usable legs is worth 20, then why would being a quad not be worth 40-50. I can even understand that a "normal" could only get 25 by the rules, but put that aside for the moment. The legless person could use a wheelchair. In fact, it had better be assumed. Why would the BIAB character have to lose out because he has a robot battle suit? Lets use a normal character for example. Would you penalize that same character for choosing to have low stats in physical groups and then buy a power suit?

 

Part of the reason for getting points for "flaws" is to get the players to play something less than perfect. What I want to know is how those flaws are worked out.

 

Side info:

He has a cyberjack (mindlink) for: 5 points.

I'm still working on how to build a Cyber Computer for him.

He has a sensory link (Clairsentience) that only works through the cyberjack, and can only use sensory information from equipment with a built in senor systems (you have to add senses to the vehicle design): 15 points.

The sensor link allows him to control the robot as if it was his own body. It might also allow him to pilot robot drones remotely with the right equipment, when combined with the cyberjack above and a transmitter.

 

I'm just not sure if i'm doing this right though.

 

Whew... I'm out...

 

The Fool

"You mind if I just call you 'Squishey' instead?"

[TheFool1972]

Hey! I just had another idea!

 

He might also be built just using a normal character creation rules, with the advantaged/disadvantages of being a brain in a robot body. Then give him the ad/dis of being a brain in a box on occasion.

 

But would being able to be removed from the body and placed in another be and advantage, a disadvantage, or balance out?

 

Or does this not cover the concept closely enough?

 

The Fool

"Stop confusing me and give me something to shoot!"

[cutsleeve]

the reason you get less because you have a robot body is because he isnt always impaired because he is using a power suit. its like this he may be a brain in a box but if he rarely if he didnt have a robot power suit his disadvantage would be worth 25 points because he is impaired all the time and its fully impairing which means he cant move, communicate, or percieve all the time he doesnt have a robot he can pilot to make up for the lose of capability. now lets say you have a guy who is brain in a box number 2 and is jacked straight into a robot and cant be removed this gives him no disadvantages his body is the robot and unless the robot is missing basic human capabilities these would be their own disadvantages. now lets say another BIAB has a robot body he can be taken out of once and awhile and he uses it half the time this would mean he isnt impaired because he has the robot that allows him to overcome his impairment once and awhile. which would end up being frequently impairing andf fully impairing because for some reason he cant use the robot half the time and therefor becomes frequent and if he;s out of the robot its fully imparing so it would be 20 points. Now lets say BIAB4 is a guy who stays in his robot armor suit all the time but can be pried out if someone tries really hard this would mean he infrequently impaired but its fully impairing so it would be worth 15 points because he is infrequently out of the suit which means he can lift objects and talk and breath and eat most of the time.

 

This is how Tony Stark is made he has is injured in the veitnam war and now has a heart condition he cant walk around or do even minor lifting because of it. but he recently built a suit in his basement which takes the load off his heart and gives him highly enhanced physical capabilities and while wearing it he doesnt suffer problems with his heart. But if he takes it off the problems are still there. he also doesnt want to stay in the armor all the time especially on dates or talking to friends or going to get a snickers at the local BP. So he doesnt wear it all the time only about half the time this would make his physical limitation about 15 points which would be frequently impairing and greatly impairing. he can still do stuff whith the armor off but not all that much and he wears it half the time or a good portion of it. all his robotic armor and stuff is bought as powers with Obvious Innacessable Focus and some Only In Hero ID.

 

This is how Physical limitations are structured

[OddHat]

Originally posted by TheFool1972

What I do want, is to understand the point valuing system better. Let's get right down to it: If not having usable legs is worth 20, then why would being a quad not be worth 40-50. I can even understand that a "normal" could only get 25 by the rules, but put that aside for the moment. The legless person could use a wheelchair. In fact, it had better be assumed. Why would the BIAB character have to lose out because he has a robot battle suit? Lets use a normal character for example. Would you penalize that same character for choosing to have low stats in physical groups and then buy a power suit?

 

Part of the reason for getting points for "flaws" is to get the players to play something less than perfect. What I want to know is how those flaws are worked out.

 

You're looking at this differently than the game does. Don't look at the "real world" mechanical details; look at the game effect.

 

Disad points are based on how much trouble the disadvantages causes you in-game, nothing else. If it doesn't affect you in-play, it's not worth any points. If mister Brain in the Box is only very rarely out of his suit in-play, then the disad of being a brain in a box is "infrequent, fully limiting." It's not complicated.

 

Power Suit Man gets a -1/2 focus limit because sometimes, in play, he's going to have to work without the suit. If he never gets caught without the suit, it's not a limitation and he doesn't get points for it; a few of the official characters are written up that way.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by TheFool1972

What I do want, is to understand the point valuing system better. Let's get right down to it: If not having usable legs is worth 20, then why would being a quad not be worth 40-50. I can even understand that a "normal" could only get 25 by the rules, but put that aside for the moment. The legless person could use a wheelchair. In fact, it had better be assumed. Why would the BIAB character have to lose out because he has a robot battle suit? Lets use a normal character for example. Would you penalize that same character for choosing to have low stats in physical groups and then buy a power suit?

 

The normal guy certainly would not per penalized. Nor would he be rewarded with more points from a Disad either. Like Oddhat and cutsleeve have said, it's based on the overall effect. Of course, you can nit pick Disads...buying both No Hands or Arms, and Unable To Walk. Of course, the value of the Disads would still depend upon how often they apply. They dont apply when he's in his robot body, only when he's outside it.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Farkling

Duplication is DEFINITELY the wrong approach...

 

It's a perfectly valid approach. Might not apply here, but I still don't know the nature of the robot or it's relationship with the brain, so maybe it can.

 

Using a vehicle never occured to me. I don't know why....maybe I was tired last night. Good idea and probably better than Duplication.

[Lemur866]

The trouble is, you are thinking of the brain in the box as the character, and the robot suit as a tool he uses to get around. But Champions doesn't really work that way. The robot suit+brain is the character, the fact that the robot is controlled by a brain in a box is just a special effect, in itself worth no points. You are a 8 foot tall robot, and you get no points for that--in itself.

 

But if being a giant robot controlled by a brain in a box causes you some problems in your life as a super hero, then you can take disadvantage points. Suppose the brain is always in the robot suit, it never has to leave. Well, you could get disadvantage points because you have distinctive features. You could also get disadvantage points for a physical limitation...you are 8 feet tall and weigh a ton, so you can't climb up in your son's treehouse. People point and stare when you go to the office christmas party. You might have a public ID. In this character conception, you get essentially the same disadvantages as any other robot character, or any other 8 foot tall monstrous brick. The fact that your brain is in a nutrient vat in your chest instead of in your head is irrelevant.

 

Or you can add another physical limitation...every so often you have to remove the brain and wash it off, or change the filters, or whatever. How much of a limitation this is depends on how often you have to do it, and how long it takes. This might be handled as a dependency...unless you take out your brain and wash it off every week, day, or whatever, you take a specified amount of damage.

 

But what if you can't wear the robot suit all the time? If you can only wear the suit for 12 hours a day, and have to rest in your nutrient vat the other 12 hours, that is a major problem. In this case, I might recomend a multiform...some of the time you are an 8 foot robot, other times a brain in a box. Or you could give yourself a physical limitation instead, if the brain is essentially completely useless as a character. Depends on how often you have to recharge your brain, and can't function as a super hero. But you don't get the full points for being a quadrepeligic in this conception, since most of the time you are an 8 foot robot, not a brain in a box. It might be only 15 points or so...you are essentially completely helpless during your equivalent of sleep.

 

Or suppose your brain pops out at embarassing times...say if you get hit by a particular type of attack, or take a specified amount of damage. Then you could give yourself an accidental change, worth whatever the die roll of change is at whatever you judge the rarity of the circumstances are. Or you could just treat it like being knocked unconscious by the attack, the fact that your brain popped out is just a special effect, the reality is that you aren't really any more helpless than any other unconscious character. In that case, take a susceptability rather than accidental change...accidental change implies that you can still do something usefull in your brain form, even if it just talk, answer questions, shout advice, or perform mental skills.

 

Or you could write up a character as a brain in a box and get full points for being a quadrepeligic, and build the robot suit as a vehicle. Some people like this, but it seems a bit complicated to me...my personal bias would be to build the suit as the character.

 

But the bottom line is that the fact that you are a disembodied brain in a box is just a special effect. Remember that it is worth NO points intrisicly. You only get disadvantage points being a brain in a box disadvantages you in some way DURING GAME PLAY. If you are a cyborg, you don't get points for that. If you are a cyborg character, and you sometimes get caught between visits to the bionics clinic and your legs are in the shop, and you have to fight off the VIPER agents from your wheelchair while throwing potted plants and frantically pressing the "Close Door" button on the elevator before they catch you, THEN you get disadvantage points.

 

If Billy Batson is a normal kid that turns into a super hero when he says a magic word, he might get a -1/4 limit on his super powers for "Only in Hero ID". If Billy is crippled in normal form, but not in super form, how many points is that worth? It is entirely dependent on the way the character is conceived. If Billy essentially never changes back to human form, and can change in an instant even if he does, then he really doesn't deserve any points, he lives his whole life in super form, so the fact that he can change into a crippled kid if he wants to is not a disadvantage at all. But if Billy feels he must spend most of his life in normal form for whatever reason--family, a limit on his powers, or whatever--then he can get points...but only as much as he is going to face in-game situations where he isn't going to have access to his superpowers. If he can't change to super form when VIPER attacks the high school science fair because then his fragile aunt would discover his secret, then he gets points. If he just smiles, says his magic word and kicks the agent's butts while his aunt and schoolmates applaud, then he gets no points. See the idea?

[Farkling]

I was opting for the vehicular approach considering the lack of actual damage the Box should take.

 

Perhaps Multiform IS a valid approach, yet there is a flaw in that model. If yon brain is out of the robot...then, technically, using Multiform rules, the Robot no longer exists.

 

"Other form coninues to exist" is not a reasonable Multiform limitation.

 

No longer exists as a functional character is a much different animal (or plot device) than no longer exists in the real world.

 

The special effect approach is valid, but the mechanics SHOULD reflect the two distinct structures existing simultaneously, if they can be seperated. Or else the robot disappears into an Anime pocket dimesnsion when the brain is popped out.

 

With the "vehicle" approach, the brainbox could even include Mind Control, Telekinetics, and/or Telepathy as powers, bought versus machine class minds, OAF - cyberlink remotes, limited by abilities of connected electronics/machinery, ... then there are times that the box might NEED to be removed and transported...or haywired/jerry-rigged into an object temporarily for a Stealth mission...

 

It boosts playability by letting the character retain some extra "functionality" outside the robotoid.

[Tom McCarthy]

I thought the duplication option was a good extension of the Astral Form Duplication example in the 5e rulebook.

 

There's usually more than one way to build something in Hero, and I'd be inclined to build the brain-driving-the-robot as the character, and give him No manipulatory limbs when disconnected (Infrequent, Fully) and Accidental Change to disconnected (when damaged, etc.). Multiform and Duplication both appear to be other valid ways to build it, and the vehicle idea should work, but have interesting effects (I seem to recall vehicles and foci have slightly different damage/destruction rules).

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Farkling

Perhaps Multiform IS a valid approach, yet there is a flaw in that model. If yon brain is out of the robot...then, technically, using Multiform rules, the Robot no longer exists.

Not necessarily true. This is just Special Effects, combined potentially with Obvious Inaccessible Focus for the Multiform.

[Farkling]

Not necessarily true. This is just Special Effects, combined potentially with Obvious Inaccessible Focus for the Multiform.

 

Excuse me...I need to pop my brian out and have it cleaned...my mind's eye appears to be a bit occluded.

 

How could I miss such an obvious concpet?

 

....wanders off to drink and contemplate his senility.....