Instagib Move Throughs?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

re: Velocity Factor Rules

 

Move By Damage is STR/2 + (VF)d6.

Move Through OCV penalty is -(VF) and Damage is STR + (VF)d6.

 

The Velocity Factor value (5ER pg 436) is equal to the (relative) Velocity Based DCV value (5ER page 364).

[lemming]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

re: Velocity Factor Rules

 

Move By Damage is STR/2 + (VF)d6.

Move Through OCV penalty is -(VF) and Damage is STR + (VF)d6.

 

The Velocity Factor value (5ER pg 436) is equal to the (relative) Velocity Based DCV value (5ER page 364).

 

Oh right, that's in the APG as well. (I missed it in my scan of 5th, but found it after you said it...)

[Tasha]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Okay' date=' so I'm working through a character who can fly really, really fast, and I've suddenly noticed that Move Throughs with a rapid speed do disgustingly high damage. For example, a character with 32m x32 NCM Flight, going at their max speed of 1024m per Phase, dishes out [i']171d6[/i] damage in a Move Through, half of which rebounds on them.

 

As far as I can tell, reading the rules, NCM apparently deals appropriate v/6 damage, as it states "[the character] may perform [Move Throughs] at Noncombat Movement speeds with other forms of movement (though this means the character has a base OCV of 0; see 6E2 24)".

 

171d6 damage seems way, way too much, even at 0 OCV. What if my character hits a wall or something? They just die? There is no reasonable way to defend from an attack that does that much damage, except desolidification, and that's hardly appropriate. Am I reading this wrong?

 

Yeah numbers numbers blah blah. I'll tell you the REAL reason why you are unwise in the extreme to do NCM Move Throughs and Move bys. That reason is High OCV, High SPD Martial Artists who tend to have martial throw.

 

The scenario usually plays out this way. You the Cannonball are going to do the heroic pushed NCM movethrough on the Mega Brick baddy that is currently blind etc (ie DCV 0). You take your phase and as you get close the Martial artists standing in your flight path takes their delay and Hits you (with your DCV being next to nothing), using Martial Throw they direct you right into the ground where you crater doing that humungous amount of damage to yourself. Oh and I usually only give people doing move throughs their DCV based on their own DCV with NCM and Move Through factored in.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

re: Velocity Factor Rules

 

Move By Damage is STR/2 + (VF)d6.

Move Through OCV penalty is -(VF) and Damage is STR + (VF)d6.

 

The Velocity Factor value (5ER pg 436) is equal to the (relative) Velocity Based DCV value (5ER page 364).

Right. And in 6E anyway (doubt it's changed) velocity-based DCV is logarithmic, with +2 for each doubling. That's actually perfect; it is right in line with the idea of +1 DC/Body being double the energy.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Yeah numbers numbers blah blah. I'll tell you the REAL reason why you are unwise in the extreme to do NCM Move Throughs and Move bys. That reason is High OCV, High SPD Martial Artists who tend to have martial throw.

 

The scenario usually plays out this way. You the Cannonball are going to do the heroic pushed NCM movethrough on the Mega Brick baddy that is currently blind etc (ie DCV 0). You take your phase and as you get close the Martial artists standing in your flight path takes their delay and Hits you (with your DCV being next to nothing), using Martial Throw they direct you right into the ground where you crater doing that humungous amount of damage to yourself. Oh and I usually only give people doing move throughs their DCV based on their own DCV with NCM and Move Through factored in.

 

This is quite true, but more applicable to some scenarios than others. It's the ideal tactic for dealing with "Captain Move-Through!" type characters, but it's not so easy (or advisable) to use the martial throw maneuver to stop, say, a runaway mag-lev train....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

If you REALLY want to discourage this type of Move Through' date=' not only put the attacker at 0 OCV, but also assign the target velocity-based DCV (6E2 p. 24) based on the relative velocity. Hitting 11+ DCV (depending on your Speed) with your 0 OCV (as in the OP's example) means you're going to need to roll a natural 3. Go for it![/quote']

 

When a 3 happens, a 3 happens.

 

This is one reason I have frequently considered not using the 3 and 18 rule.

 

I think most of us select a level of difficulty where the task is "mundane" and no roll is needed to succeed. I see no reason a hot dog vendor must roll a skill roll each time he puts a dog in a bun, with 1 in 216 attempts ending in failure. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with establishing that some tasks are "impossible" and no roll is capable of success. No matter how good that PS: Hot Dog Vendor skill may be, you can't slap 25 dogs in 25 buns in a single flip.

[Tasha]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

This is quite true' date=' but more applicable to some scenarios than others. It's the ideal tactic for dealing with "Captain Move-Through!" type characters, but it's not so easy (or advisable) to use the martial throw maneuver to stop, say, a runaway mag-lev train.... [/quote']

 

/agree ,but the OP was talking about his Champions character doing insane amounts of damage while doing a NCM Move Through.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

actually if physics were applied,

the velocity of the maneuver would have to be doubled for each 2d6 of additionally damage

as kinetic energy equals 1/2mass*v^2

and the damage is considered doubled of each additional dice in champions.

If 6 meter velocity adds 1d6 damage,

a 12 meter velocity would add 3d6 damage

a 24 meter velocity would add 5d6 damage

a 48 meter velocity would add 7d6 damage

a 96 meter velocity would add 9d6 damage

a 192 meter velocity would add 11d6 damage

a 384 meter velocity would add 13d6 damage

a 768 meter velocity would add 15d6 damage

 

768 * sqrt(2) = 1 086.11602

so a velocity of 1024m

should add 16d6

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I think most of us select a level of difficulty where the task is "mundane" and no roll is needed to succeed. I see no reason a hot dog vendor must roll a skill roll each time he puts a dog in a bun' date=' with 1 in 216 attempts ending in failure. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with establishing that some tasks are "impossible" and no roll is capable of success. No matter how good that PS: Hot Dog Vendor skill may be, you can't slap 25 dogs in 25 buns in a single flip.[/quote']

 

"How did you get those burns, on your... elbows? And your ears? And your feet?"

 

"Crit failed my PS: Hot Dog Vendor roll."

 

N.B. I once had a character with PS: Hot Dog Vendor. He cooked them with his own radiation.

[dmjalund]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

actually if physics were applied,

the velocity of the maneuver would have to be doubled for each 2d6 of additionally damage

as kinetic energy equals 1/2mass*v^2

and the damage is considered doubled of each additional dice in champions.

If 6 meter velocity adds 1d6 damage,

a 12 meter velocity would add 3d6 damage

a 24 meter velocity would add 5d6 damage

a 48 meter velocity would add 7d6 damage

a 96 meter velocity would add 9d6 damage

a 192 meter velocity would add 11d6 damage

a 384 meter velocity would add 13d6 damage

a 768 meter velocity would add 15d6 damage

 

768 * sqrt(2) = 1 086.11602

so a velocity of 1024m

should add 16d6

Depends if damage is based on kinetic energy ((m x v x v)/2) or momentum (m x v)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

actually if physics were applied,

the velocity of the maneuver would have to be doubled for each 2d6 of additionally damage

as kinetic energy equals 1/2mass*v^2

and the damage is considered doubled of each additional dice in champions.

See posts #13 and #29.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I once built a super speedster with an extra large HKA: Side effect (takes full damage), to represent running into someone at super fast speeds. If you do want to pull this trick off multiple times, I suggest building it as a power (also it is easier to hit that way). The character in question also had regeneration (since his powers were based on super metabolism), and a ton of body to not die. None the less, he only used it once in the entire adventure.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

100 kilograms, moving at 1000 meters per second, contains 50 megajoules of kinetic energy(forgive me if I've used the wrong verb here), which is several times the kinetic energy of the average tank gun round. So offhand I'd say 25-30 DC sounds about right (since the M1 tank gun clocks in around 24 DC)...for the average superhero, even if the target gets knocked back, that's really going to hurt them too.

At 1 percent of lightspeed, the kinetic energy can be measured in "megatons of TNT equivalent".

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

A character with 1000m of Movement would need to also have Speed 12 to move at 1000 m/s.

 

Also, if we go with 5E7 J being 25 DCs and every doubling of energy adding 1 DC, it would come to damage of about (1 DC)*log2(K/1 J) where K is kinetic energy. That's a nice simple formula, but it breaks at the lower end. For example, your baseline (no character-point shift) 100 kg, 0 Character Point character can run at 2 m/s: (12 m/Phase)*(2 Phase/Turn)/(12 s/Turn) = 2 m/s. That would mean they can run with 200 J of kinetic energy and do Move Through damage of (1 DC)*log2(200 J/1 J) = 7.6 DC. So your slightly-better-than-human-average 0-point character should do 7-8 DCs of damage with a Move Through. Even factoring in the 10 Str they'd need to lift their own weight, that's a little much. It's certainly higher than the 4 DCs they'd ordinarily get in the system. That's all without Non-Combat Movement.

 

In general I don't think we should base the amount of damage solely on energy, though it might be a good sanity check to see if we're on the right order of magnitude.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I don't disagree, but I do think we should do our best to avoid ridiculous extremes that diverge way too much from energy-based damage(like the center of the Sun doing 975d6 KA, x8 AP, x16 Penetrating, every segment(as written up in 5th Ed. Star Hero)).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I don't disagree' date=' but I do think we should do our best to avoid ridiculous extremes that diverge way too much from energy-based damage(like the center of the Sun doing 975d6 KA, x8 AP, x16 Penetrating, every segment(as written up in 5th Ed. Star Hero)).[/quote']

Good point. LOL.

 

Let's say we are at the center of the Sun, have a thermal conductivity of 1 W/Km (let's consider that 0 ED...), and approximate our shape as some hypothetical volume with 1m thickness and 4m^2 area (consider a spherical cow ). If we tried to maintain our internal temperature at 300K in the Sun's core temperature of 16e6K, how much heat would transfer each second (Segment)?

 

P = (1W/Km)(16e6K-300K)(4m^2)/(1m) ~= 64e6W = 64e6J/s

 

So each second would result in a heat transfer of 64e6 Joules. Using that formula we came to above, this should come to damage each Segment of about:

 

(1 DC)*log2(64e6J/1 J) = 26 DCs

 

which comes to 8.5d6K. Oh, just call it 9d6K (it IS the center of the Sun after all!). I'd even fell comfortable going up to 15-20d6K per Segment and adding some Penetrating or something, but nowhere NEAR hundreds of dice.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Good point. LOL.

 

Let's say we are at the center of the Sun, have a thermal conductivity of 1 W/Km (let's consider that 0 ED...), and approximate our shape as some hypothetical volume with 1m thickness and 4m^2 area (consider a spherical cow ). If we tried to maintain our internal temperature at 300K in the Sun's core temperature of 16e6K, how much heat would transfer each second (Segment)?

 

P = (1W/Km)(16e6K-300K)(4m^2)/(1m) ~= 64e6W = 64e6J/s

 

So each second would result in a heat transfer of 64e6 Joules. Using that formula we came to above, this should come to damage each Segment of about:

 

(1 DC)*log2(64e6J/1 J) = 26 DCs

 

which comes to 8.5d6K. Oh, just call it 9d6K (it IS the center of the Sun after all!). I'd even fell comfortable going up to 15-20d6K per Segment and adding some Penetrating or something, but nowhere NEAR hundreds of dice.

 

20d6 AP Pen KA per segment still seems more reasonable to me. For a vehicle to withstand it required 120 rDEF, hardened and impenetrable, and for a character 120 rPD/ED, 360 PD/ED total, hardened and impenetrable. A bucketload of points, and the same net lethality as the aforementioned ludicrous 5E writeup.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

I'd probably go with limited Desolidification.

[Ice9]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Of course, the center of the sun should also be doing a significant amount of crushing damage from gravity/pressure.

On the energy front though, I don't think 9d6K is really enough, compared to the Body/Defense that normal people and vehicles have.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Instagib Move Throughs?

 

Of course' date=' the center of the sun should also be doing a significant amount of crushing damage from gravity/pressure.[/quote']

Pressure sure (though I'd have to investigate the amount and I'm not sure the damage would be significant compared to the heat damage), but gravity depends both on what you are doing and where you are. For example, if you are in orbit or accelerating toward the center of the body (e.g. in free fall) the effects of gravity will be decreased, and it also decreases under the surface, approaching zero in the center.