Genetically engineered leaders?

[Ragitsu]

A problem with human leaders, is the temptation of corruption and ease at which they forget their promises.

 

So, I was thinking...would it be feasible in any way for a society to GROW their own leaders, who are programmed with a sense of duty to their entire species, and never give into blackmail/threats/seduction? Asides from tampering of the genetic code by the corrupt themselves (in order to serve their interests), what pitfalls are there to consider?

[McCoy]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

Um, do they have to be carbon-based? Maybe an AI that can truly learn might be the best way to go?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

Um' date=' do they have to be carbon-based? Maybe an AI that can truly learn might be the best way to go?[/quote']

 

I had actual bodies in mind, but I suppose an AI wouldn't be bad, if you can avoid the whole "AI becomes cold and unfeeling" cliché.

[clsage]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

A problem with human leaders, is the temptation of corruption and ease at which they forget their promises.

 

So, I was thinking...would it be feasible in any way for a society to GROW their own leaders, who are programmed with a sense of duty to their entire species, and never give into blackmail/threats/seduction? Asides from tampering of the genetic code by the corrupt themselves (in order to serve their interests), what pitfalls are there to consider?

 

Hmmm. Well, while you've already mentioned the peril of AI's being cast as "cold and unfeeling", I find myself wondering about how a member of the "ruling class" (lacking a better term to describe the constructed you suggest) would be viewed if they had info that would, in the long run, aid their society but in the short term it would potentially require the sacrifice of some large number of civilians. As a real world historical example I am thinking of the allegation that Winston Churchill had definitive info (based on Enigma decrypts) that Coventry was going to be bombed and, to prevent the Germans from becoming aware of that cryptographic breakthrough and altering their codes, he did not give any "upgraded warnings".

Cold and unfeeling ? Or simply a practical response to a terrible situation ?

 

As I said, just a mental ramble....

 

Speaking in game terms, would you have to add some Physical Limitation with side effects (eg: 1d6 damage per 24 hours when not "acting for the greater good") ?

 

Just my slightly greater than $.02US.

 

-Carl-

[Steve]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

A problem with human leaders, is the temptation of corruption and ease at which they forget their promises.

 

So, I was thinking...would it be feasible in any way for a society to GROW their own leaders, who are programmed with a sense of duty to their entire species, and never give into blackmail/threats/seduction? Asides from tampering of the genetic code by the corrupt themselves (in order to serve their interests), what pitfalls are there to consider?

 

What you are describing is actually a form of tyranny by a caste of genetic elites. I'm not sure that Khan Noonian Singh with a sense of duty would actually be any less terrifying in the long run. A sense of duty to the entire species can also be easily corrupted by controlling the sources of information fed to the leadership caste.

 

An AI would also suffer from deficient or tampered information when making decisions. For example, information could be manipulated so that the AI reaches a conclusion that a 90% population reduction would be an improvement in long-term species viability.

[Sundog]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

We're really talking about enhanced decision makers rather than leaders. As has been a pitfall for many politicians, the ability to make decisions, and even to do it well, is not the same skillset as the ability to lead. In a crisis, a man who can come to swift (even if not optimal) decisions NOW is of far more value than one who can think through a situation and come to the perfect solution in half an hour. Likewise, someone who can get people to follow where he leads will always triumph over a mental giant who can't convince anyone to do what he says.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

Let's assume the leader also makes the "best" decisions.

[Ranxerox]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

A problem with human leaders, is the temptation of corruption and ease at which they forget their promises.

 

So, I was thinking...would it be feasible in any way for a society to GROW their own leaders, who are programmed with a sense of duty to their entire species, and never give into blackmail/threats/seduction? Asides from tampering of the genetic code by the corrupt themselves (in order to serve their interests), what pitfalls are there to consider?

 

Human beings are by nature more social than cats and less social than dogs. That is because we can do the solo hunter thing pretty well but often we can get better results hunting as a pack. This flexibility in survival strategies leaves us with an eternal choice between functioning as part of a group or pursuing our individual interest apart from the group or even at the expense of the group.

 

Since this choice is hardwired into us be evolution (or bestowed into our DNA by God if you prefer), it could probably be if not edited all the way out by genetic engineering or neural surgery at least weighted to give one of the two sides of the choice an advantage in the decision making process. Of course you also accomplish the same results through a a nurture strategy, though then you would have to worry about corruption amongst those in charge of doing the nurturing.

[Peregrine]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

Probably far better and easier to genetically engineer true followers, who do as they are told without individual preferences or perspectives. What, you expected to be one of the leaders?

[McCoy]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

What you are describing is actually a form of tyranny by a caste of genetic elites. I'm not sure that Khan Noonian Singh with a sense of duty would actually be any less terrifying in the long run. A sense of duty to the entire species can also be easily corrupted by controlling the sources of information fed to the leadership caste.

 

An AI would also suffer from deficient or tampered information when making decisions. For example, information could be manipulated so that the AI reaches a conclusion that a 90% population reduction would be an improvement in long-term species viability.

Probably. I'm already convinced that a 66% population reduction would be an improvement in long-term species viability, but I don't have the slightest idea how to bring this about short of letting the Horsemen ride. I'm doing my part by remaining childless by choice, and I have come to the conclusion that treating people as celebrities only because they have freakishly large families is just evil. But then again, most of "reality" television and the celebrity culture is just evil.

[AirborneRob]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

I think Steve had a good point based on the Khan issues with Genetics. As stated in ToS, superior ability breeds superior ambition which leads to some very realistic issues in regards to the human condition. Unless you are talking about a VERY advanced race who has solved the problems associated with improving the species, most efforts along those lines will have consequences to some degree. Just my opinion, please take it with a grain of salt

[The Weapon]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

A problem with human leaders, is the temptation of corruption and ease at which they forget their promises.

 

So, I was thinking...would it be feasible in any way for a society to GROW their own leaders, who are programmed with a sense of duty to their entire species, and never give into blackmail/threats/seduction? Asides from tampering of the genetic code by the corrupt themselves (in order to serve their interests), what pitfalls are there to consider?

 

I don't see how you could program a sense of duty to a particular group. Sure they could have a big tendency to form a sense of duty, but the input they recieve will decide which group they have it to. A high degree of empathy might be more worthwhile (although they might not stop at just this species, they might empathise will all primate or all animals for that matter).

 

There was a story where people could get their ability to experience physical pleasure removed so as to be immune to bribery and therefore theoretically impartial. A character in the story had this done to advance their career. I can't remember the name of it.

[The Weapon]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

I think Steve had a good point based on the Khan issues with Genetics. As stated in ToS' date=' superior ability breeds superior ambition which leads to some very realistic issues in regards to the human condition. Unless you are talking about a VERY advanced race who has solved the problems associated with improving the species, most efforts along those lines will have consequences to some degree. Just my opinion, please take it with a grain of salt [/quote']

 

I don't think superior ability does breed superior political ambition. Some very stupid people want to be rulers. I imagine that truly superior beings would be bored as hell telling us what to do. Their relationship to "normal" humans would be more like Dr. House or Sherlock Holmes, impatience with our inability to get it combined with a realisation that they need us to wash the test tubes and get coffee.

[AirborneRob]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

I don't think superior ability does breed superior political ambition. Some very stupid people want to be rulers. I imagine that truly superior beings would be bored as hell telling us what to do. Their relationship to "normal" humans would be more like Dr. House or Sherlock Holmes' date=' impatience with our inability to get it combined with a realisation that they need us to wash the test tubes and get coffee.[/quote']

 

No, you're right. It wouldn't be a 100% guarantee that it would. However with the human mind and ego, the potential for furthering his/her own agenda can be taken to a level most normal people cannot comprehend. Lol, i may also be guilty of making my earlier statement based upon the current political climate in the world today. In fact, it may be safe to say that the more utopian the society, the less likely a Khan Noonian Singh would result and that the reverse may also be true.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

Who do you trust enough to design your future ruling class?

[AirborneRob]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

Are you asking me Amadan or the thread poster?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

Are you asking me Amadan or the thread poster?

 

More a musing on the topic than anything else.

 

I ponder the scandals associated with voting machines, then contemplate how you could ever trust wholeheartedly in the benevolence of the creators of our new masters.

[AirborneRob]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

I think i would have to stand on the level of civilization and its creation of engineered leaders, human or otherwise. A civilization that is advanced enough culturally/philosophically probably wouldn't see a need to fool around with it but if it did, problems should be minimal.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

A problem with human leaders, is the temptation of corruption and ease at which they forget their promises.

 

So, I was thinking...would it be feasible in any way for a society to GROW their own leaders, who are programmed with a sense of duty to their entire species, and never give into blackmail/threats/seduction? Asides from tampering of the genetic code by the corrupt themselves (in order to serve their interests), what pitfalls are there to consider?

If you want to go the rubber science route, maybe. From a more realistic standpoint, the true root of the problem isn't anything genetic engineering can fix.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

K-H-A-N !!!!!!

 

Somebody had to say it.

[AirborneRob]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

"Have you ever read Milton Captain", asked Khan.

[OddHat]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

Who do you trust enough to design your future ruling class?

 

Bingo.

 

The only people in a position to pass power to the "perfect" leaders are the people in power at the time. They'll have no reason to do so short of violent revolution, unless they had a hand in the design themselves, in which case you get perfect leaders designed to push the interests of their designers.

 

You can get some good SF stories out of AIs and Perfect Men overthrowing weak, corrupt democracies and replacing them with Enlightened governments, and everyone likes an absolute dictatorship if they imagine themselves as the dictator. I used to love those stories (I still root for the Eternal Emperor in the Sten books).

 

In the real world, well, no, not so much.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

I think we're deviating a bit from the original question.

 

There is no discussion on whether or not the engineering worked: it did. The question is what, if any, downsides (pitfalls) are there after the leaders are in power. And, it needn't be a utopia.

[AirborneRob]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

Didnt say it needed to be a Utopia. I said the more Utopian the society the less likely the problem of corruption would exist. And if they already exist then the pitfalls would be potentially corruption of power, the desire to promote their own personal agenda and ensuring they maintain the status quo in their favor. Figure for every 1 beneficient leader created, maybe 10-15 would be otherwise. Want and need are powerful forces. Even without an advanced civilization or one leaning towards a Utopia, outside of the Khan-isms, i would guess that personality quirks could arise, they could develope psychological problems, be Introverted or something like that.

[Lucius]

Re: Genetically engineered leaders?

 

Who genetically engineers the genetic engineers?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Genetically engineered palindromedary