Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

[Doc Democracy]

This is something that has been tickling my brain after reading a couple of threads (one on criticals in this forum and one that turned into a debate on blocking etc)

 

Anyway, a lot of the time that we have issues is because there is a problem in fitting the HERO as designed into the game being played. One of the main switcheroos is the Batman versus the BatGod depending on solo title or JLA...

 

Has anyone ever thought of running the game on a relative basis? This would obviously be most useful for those people doing dimension hopping style games but might be useful in other ways as well, for one-off adventures where the GM can mess with the common baselines of the game.

 

It would take the game to be designed this way from the get go. Instead of buying 20 STR, you would buy +10. In a game where baseline STR is 10 this comes to the same. In a game where the baseline STR is 30 then this same purchase is worth 40.

 

What this does is set the Hero apart from the crowd. In the solo Batman title where the average villain protagonist is running about with OCV 5 then Batman really only needs 7 or so to stand out. In the JLA adventures where the average villian is hitting OCV 8 or 9 then Batman needs to be 10 or 11 to get the feel that the design demands.

 

In an absolute game then the Batman needs to purchase for the high level adventure if he is not to look silly but then is so beyond the street level protagonists that he loses his roots. In the relative game he gets what he needs in both keeping himself a credible threat to both the Joker and Darkseid.

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

I have also been thinking of constructing some tables (possibly to allow card play) where I can group my heroes and villains based on their relative merits of strength speed and agility. These would allow players to accept standard effect style results or go to dice or card play where they might achieve much more or much less than their abilities might suggest.

 

One day I will have so much time I will be able to throw my time away like I did when I was 20 or so....

 

 

Doc

[CptPatriot]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

What is being said here is that in a world where the Bat can fight small and larger scale threats, one writeup isn't enough?

 

With that said, perhaps the problem is that the writeup is too limited to deal with both?

 

What I could see is that the block of points that make up Batman's equipment has to be flexible enough to deal with the need for a larger generally higher point threat. That is come up in the Batman/Predator books as well as when Batman and Superman went to Apokolips to deal with Darkseid kidnapping Kara.

 

In this case, if the character writeup had a Bat-Equipment Pool with enough room for his larger "wonderful toys", then he can use his usual street gear and his more potent gear when the need avails itself.

 

The problem is that, realistically, players with the ability to use bigger toys tend to want to use them. If you have a group that can maintain self control, then cutting the DC/AP caps with the players knowing that they may be forced to deal with galactic threats will keep them in check.

[Ice9]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

In this case, if the character writeup had a Bat-Equipment Pool with enough room for his larger "wonderful toys", then he can use his usual street gear and his more potent gear when the need avails itself.

It's not all equipment though. In "BatGod" mode, he's got enough DCV/Combat Luck to evade or survive attacks that can hit the Flash and wind Superman. Put those defenses up against street-level opposition, and he's in so little danger that he could wait for the thugs to run out of ammo, or just casually stroll past them.

 

cutting the DC/AP caps with the players knowing that they may be forced to deal with galactic threats will keep them in check.

Not sure what this means - if you cut the caps to street-level, then it will be like spitballs against galactic threats. While I could see not getting out the Bat-Dimensional-Array to deal with local criminals, it's a bit of a stretch to ignore the high-grade stuff entirely.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

.. One of the main switcheroos is the Batman versus the BatGod depending on solo title or JLA...

...

 

I think the real issue is one of editorial control of comic book team books vs. comic book solo titles and it doesn't just happen at DC.

 

Imho, the DC Animated Universe (DCAU) didn't have this problem. If you allow for XP earned by Batman and Superman during their solo series it makes sense for them to be the most experienced members of the Justice League. At that point there is no longer a solo Batman or solo Superman series. During the Justice League era they have a team to call upon for backup if they encounter something/someone too big to handle on their own.

 

The DCAU Justice League is fairly balanced in terms of being used as a model for a RPG superteam.

On the other hand, I have no idea what the power level really is within the current DC Comic Universe from week to week or title to title since they appear to be addicted to Crisis events to generate sales.

 

I know there is a HUGE amount of source material in the comics to draw upon compared to the animated but the animated shows (like the new Avengers show on Disney) have far better overall editorial control of their power levels. As a result, they make far better sources to model a game after.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

What is being said here is that in a world where the Bat can fight small and larger scale threats' date=' one writeup isn't enough?[/quote']

 

No - If I get the idea right you should only need one writeup to go both High and Low Level play at once.

 

Instead of buying OCV 7 you buy OCV +4. And then you move the Baseline dependent on the Power level. So if you're in Street Thug World your baseline is the Suggested Hero Normal (OCV 3), but if you're in Super Planet Protectors World you move the baseline so Characters would start with OCV 6 (for example). That way your OCV is both 7 and 10 and it just depends on which Rules the World plays by.

 

I see this getting tricky when you have to work with Frameworks, but otherwise you would (for powers) do something like Street Thug World your Powers are at +0 Active Points, but when you jump through the portal to Super Planet Protectors World all your powers get +25 Active Points (or whatever is appropriate to bring power levels up to the expected standard).

 

Your Game Setup becomes even more intense though - as you need to define the Lowest Power World as the base, then define each World Power Level in moderate jumps up, then decide which world each one becomes. You're effectively building dozens of Game Ground Rules, with add-on bit based on where you end up. It'd be very very interesting, but book-keeping intensive I'd imagine.

[Naanomi]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

Interesting idea, though one would have to be able to 'sell back' the base levels... what if someone were *inaccurate* (or whatever) compared to the average opponent? Sell back some OCV and get -1? So in the Hero Normal setting you'd be at a 2, but the Planet Protectors version has a 5.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

No - If I get the idea right you should only need one writeup to go both High and Low Level play at once.

 

That was the idea. You would have a basic design idea and be able to switch power levels as and when you need to.

 

Your Game Setup becomes even more intense though - as you need to define the Lowest Power World as the base' date=' then define each World Power Level in moderate jumps up, then decide which world each one becomes. You're effectively building dozens of Game Ground Rules, with add-on bit based on where you end up. It'd be very very interesting, but book-keeping intensive I'd imagine.[/quote']

 

I think that we need to be thinking of how technology can help with the player interface to RPGs. The character sheet is a tool that was fit for purpose when D&D came out in the 1970's. It is astounding that all we have done with respect to the GUI for roleplay games in 40 years is add a few pages.

 

For a game like HERO there is a crying need for technology to make things easy. One of the reasons many people recommend Hero Designer to newcomers so enthusiastically. Personally, I think HD is a tool for experienced people who have done the hard work on paper and understand the rules, with newcomers it hides stuff that they really should read before they play.

 

For all games I think that we should have a little more technology and design devoted to the player/game interface. This idea is something that would work better if technology could handle the background details...

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

Interesting idea' date=' though one would have to be able to 'sell back' the base levels... what if someone were *inaccurate* (or whatever) compared to the average opponent? Sell back some OCV and get -1? So in the Hero Normal setting you'd be at a 2, but the Planet Protectors version has a 5.[/quote']

 

I would say so. You currently can sell back stuff (limited to a degree) and I would not see that stopping in this application....

 

 

Doc

[archermoo]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

That was the idea. You would have a basic design idea and be able to switch power levels as and when you need to.

 

 

 

I think that we need to be thinking of how technology can help with the player interface to RPGs. The character sheet is a tool that was fit for purpose when D&D came out in the 1970's. It is astounding that all we have done with respect to the GUI for roleplay games in 40 years is add a few pages.

 

For a game like HERO there is a crying need for technology to make things easy. One of the reasons many people recommend Hero Designer to newcomers so enthusiastically. Personally, I think HD is a tool for experienced people who have done the hard work on paper and understand the rules, with newcomers it hides stuff that they really should read before they play.

 

For all games I think that we should have a little more technology and design devoted to the player/game interface. This idea is something that would work better if technology could handle the background details...

 

 

Doc

 

Never really saw the character sheet as the GUI for an RPG. To me it is more a reminder of the mechanics of the character I'm playing.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

I've considered running multiple campaigns in the same world, with a JLA type supergroup as one campaign and a bunch of street level types as another. If I ever did such a thing, I would have no problem with someone writing the same character up on two different point levels/stat caps so it could represent the same guy in two different comic titles. I've never put any real thought into making it a standard part of the game, just something to do on a case-by-case basis.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

I've considered running multiple campaigns in the same world' date=' with a JLA type supergroup as one campaign and a bunch of street level types as another. If I ever did such a thing, I would have no problem with someone writing the same character up on two different point levels/stat caps so it could represent the same guy in two different comic titles. I've never put any real thought into making it a standard part of the game, just something to do on a case-by-case basis.[/quote']

 

Ars Magica used to (any may still) have something called "troupe-style play". Characters came in three types: mages, who were overwhelmingly powerful; companions, who were heroic; and grogs, who were cannon fodder. According to the book, each player might have a mage and a companion, and the grogs could be played by anybody, but in our game, we all had one of each. At the beginning of each adventure, we decided who we'd play. This sometimes meant roleplaying the politics of the mages, giving an order, and then switching over to companions or grogs to complete the mission we'd ordered. It worked out fine. I even had a mage at one point who was "passing" as a companion, and played her (more or less) at the lower level, at least when there were witnesses.

 

 

I also considered running a game where we'd have pulp, silver, and modern age versions of each sheet with the conceit that we're just pulling our favorite stories from the team's entire run. Sadly, I currently have trouble prying one full sheet out of all of my players, and the paperwork involved defeated me.

[Vondy]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

I would never do what I'm about to suggest (because its silly), but you could build batman with a multiform that activates when he goes into JLA mode. It provides the requisite control and dichotomy. But then, you could just have two write-ups that you use based on modality of genre.

[assault]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

The first thing I'd do would be to take a closer look at the high level characters, make sure their writeups were correct, and didn't needlessly inflate SPD, CV and so on.

 

Then I'd look at what Batman actually does in his street level incarnation. Or rather, what his opponents don't do. One thing the mooks usually don't do is hit him! His street level incarnation is actually pretty overwhelming against normal humans, and he can really only be matched by villains, elite henchmen and so on.

 

His range of capabilities might not actually vary as much as people think.

 

There are ways of scaling things in the actual build, too. Damage Reduction is a good tool, which has a larger effect against larger attacks. If you were to give Batman, say 8 PD, 3 points of Combat Luck, 50% Damage Reduction and a 20 CON, he could walk away from an attack that did 51 STUN! He'd soak up a lot of damage, and might have trouble doing it a second, or at least third, time, and would probably take a lot of BODY too, but this is pretty much what should happen.

 

Against an normal attack that did 8 BODY and 28 STUN, he'd take no body and 8 STUN. About right.

 

Against a 2D KA that did 7 BODY and 14 STUN (using 6e STUN modifiers), he'd take 2 BODY and 1 STUN. A scratch - but taking any BODY is bad. Against a 2D KA that did 12 BODY and 36 STUN, he'd take 4 BODY and 12 STUN. Nasty.

 

Basically, built like this, he'd be very tough at low levels - but he could survive at high levels. That's about the right result, especially once you factor in CV and so on.

 

On that: in terms of DCV, in the JLA he'd be second only to the Flash, IMHO. Hitting Superman is easy. Wonder Woman tends to say "Great Hera!" a lot.

 

Of course, they all tend to have much more impressive OCVs. They rarely miss, so Batman would be in real trouble against them.

 

And finally, their SPDs aren't all that impressive. Even the ones with superspeed don't really seem to move more often, as opposed to moving faster. This is a case where the game mechanism isn't entirely satisfactory in modelling the source material.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

And finally' date=' their SPDs aren't all that impressive. Even the ones with superspeed don't really seem to move more often, as opposed to moving faster. This is a case where the game mechanism isn't entirely satisfactory in modelling the source material.[/quote']

 

I think it's a case of the wrong game mechanism being used to model the source material. A Speedster could be constructed at the same SPD as the rest of the team, with a lot of abilities to provide superspeed tricks, such as AoE Telekinesis to simulate running around and grabbing guns from a room full of thugs, penalty skill levels and other abilities to make Multiple Attacks more practical, etc. A few Board members have referred to SPD as "Panel Time", such that simulating a book where all the characters get more or less the same panel time would logically require all characters have more or less the same SPD, regardless of their power set.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

I think it's a case of the wrong game mechanism being used to model the source material. A Speedster could be constructed at the same SPD as the rest of the team' date=' with a lot of abilities to provide superspeed tricks, such as AoE Telekinesis to simulate running around and grabbing guns from a room full of thugs, penalty skill levels and other abilities to make Multiple Attacks more practical, etc. A few Board members have referred to SPD as "Panel Time", such that simulating a book where all the characters get more or less the same panel time would logically require all characters have more or less the same SPD, regardless of their power set.[/quote']

 

I agree but I still ended up giving Flash a higher SPD (6 vs. 4) than everyone else in the Justice League because of his ability to survive against his teammates while they were mind controlled by Eclipso and his later encounter against Justice Lord Superman. The extra SPD is usually defensive but also garantees a type of initiative not possible with DEX alone. And limiting the extra SPD creates a new can of worms just not worth it imo.

[Markdoc]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

We did actually play a game where all PCs (and most NPCs had the same speed) and used powers to simulate fast reactions (my character, for example had autofire and area effect selective attacks to simulate "rapidly shoot everything in sight"). It was an interesting experiment but the game lapsed after three sessions: by common agreement we decided never to do it again.

 

It simply "flattens" combat too much and becomes "I attack you, you attack me". The manuevering and positioning that can be a fun part of combat is difficult to simulate if everyone gets as many moves.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

I agree but I still ended up giving Flash a higher SPD (6 vs. 4) than everyone else in the Justice League because of his ability to survive against his teammates while they were mind controlled by Eclipso and his later encounter against Justice Lord Superman. The extra SPD is usually defensive but also garantees a type of initiative not possible with DEX alone. And limiting the extra SPD creates a new can of worms just not worth it imo.

 

A range of 4 - 6 is pretty close, and I'd say covers "all characters having more or less the same speed". It's when we get the theory that the Speedster "can't possibly" have a SPD less than 8 or 9 when everyone else has a 4-5 that I'd be getting concerned.

[Ice9]

Re: Toolkitting: Relative versus Absolute

 

I think characters with lower durability do need to be a bit faster (6 vs 4 is plenty) to account for the greater need to dive for cover / take a recovery / dodge. Of course, you could build that as brick-level Combat Luck, but at that point characters may start feeling too same-y.