Changing your Multipower

[GoldenAge]

Is there a reason that a character can only change his Multipower once a phase>

 

"A character can change the way his Multipower

reserve points are distributed or allocated

as a Zero Phase Action. However, unless the

GM permits otherwise, he may not distribute or

allocate reserve points more than once in a Phase."

 

I realize this has almost always been the rule, but I'm not convinced it's anything but arbitrary (perhaps to tone down the power of the Multipower). There are multiple instances in Hero, however, where a character can do equally impressive things at the beginning of his Phase AND at the Half Phase.

 

Thoughts???

 

(I'm contemplating making it a House Rule that MPs can be changed as a Zero Phase Action at the beginning of a character's Phase and at the Half Phase - with the exception of an Aborted reallocation that would remain the same until the character's next available action)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

Would this rule not apply to VPP's as well or are those not allowed in your campaign?

 

One potential issue I see right off the bat is the character with a reserve/pool larger than the active points of any single slot (usually the reserve=2x any slot)

I've posted several characters using this construction method as it allows any 2 slots* to be used simultaneously in a Phase.

Your proposed house rule would nearly double the effectiveness of such characters with no apparent drawback (half-move of 'full movement slot' and then activate HTH attack and defense slots).

 

*With the obvious exceptions of variations of the same power (movement, defense, etc..)

 

It also reduces the effectiveness of a stand alone power with Variable Advantage even if it's in an Elemental Control or has the Unified Power Limitation.

(see this old thread for a more detailed breakdown: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/38621-Something-I-just-noticed-and-dislike-about-multipowers?p=890486#post890486)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

I see this fitting with the rule that suggests allowing a Player to turn Powers On/Off multiple times per Phase to be a bad idea, or at least, abusable and to be watched.

[Sidetrack]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

IIRC the cost savings provided by a multipower is largely justified by having to be more strategic with the use and distribution of your various powers. Allowing more frequent switching sounds like an advantage that would have to be paid for, most obviously by purchasing said powers normally, not in a multipower.

[Outsider]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

If I can change it more than once per phase, what is to prevent the following situation :

 

I am DEX 30, Speed 6. My opponent is DEX 28, speed 6.

 

I have a 60 AP multipower with 2 slots

Slot 1 is a 12D6 Energy Blast

Slot 2 is a 30/30 force field

 

On any given phase (assuming nobody was holding) I will go first, as I have the higher DEX.

 

So I set my multipower to Energy blast and shoot my opponent. Then I switch my multipower to forcefield. Then my opponent gets his phase.

 

 

If you say that attacking my opponent ends my phase, therefore I can't switch to forcefield, how about we make the other slot something like 30" of flight instead. I switch to flight, go 15", then switch again to blast and attack. Effectively I get 120 points worth of powers used in a phase for just 72 points (disregarding limitations)

[Chronosnight]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

This was the exact same point I made to Goldenage, in private message, that sparked this topic. We have decided for our game that we will stick to cannon rules, but I personally like the idea of building your powers like that in a MP. Who cares if the players have a few more points to spend on skills or contacts Or other powers! :-)

 

If I can change it more than once per phase, what is to prevent the following situation :

 

I am DEX 30, Speed 6. My opponent is DEX 28, speed 6.

 

I have a 60 AP multipower with 2 slots

Slot 1 is a 12D6 Energy Blast

Slot 2 is a 30/30 force field

 

On any given phase (assuming nobody was holding) I will go first, as I have the higher DEX.

 

So I set my multipower to Energy blast and shoot my opponent. Then I switch my multipower to forcefield. Then my opponent gets his phase.

 

 

If you say that attacking my opponent ends my phase, therefore I can't switch to forcefield, how about we make the other slot something like 30" of flight instead. I switch to flight, go 15", then switch again to blast and attack. Effectively I get 120 points worth of powers used in a phase for just 72 points (disregarding limitations)

[Greywind]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

How big of a cannon do you use with the rules?

[Chronosnight]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

Heh, canon rather.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

I have a character in my current champs' game that has an electricity based multipower.

 

He has both a force field, and his attacks, in said MP.

 

I allow him to drop the force field at start of phase, shoot, then raise the force field. But I am forcing him to save up XP to convert the MP to a VPP, as what I am doing is basically illegal

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

I have a character in my current champs' game that has an electricity based multipower.

 

He has both a force field, and his attacks, in said MP.

 

I allow him to drop the force field at start of phase, shoot, then raise the force field. But I am forcing him to save up XP to convert the MP to a VPP, as what I am doing is basically illegal

 

By RAW that's illegal in a Multipower or a VPP.

[Greywind]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

Why would he need to drop his FF in order to attack anyways? Personal defenses don't interfere with attacks.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

Why would he need to drop his FF in order to attack anyways? Personal defenses don't interfere with attacks.

I think the assumption is a Multipower with fixed slots with active points equal to the reserve (classic Ultra-Boy 1-at-time).

[GoldenAge]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

As many here already know... Me is pretty stupid!

 

That being said... Is it ever really cost effective to buy a Flexible Slot with the "change only once per phase" rule? Couldn't you buy up the pool enough with points saved from Fixed slots to cover using multiple powers at a time? (especially in big MPs)

 

A MP with 8 slots at 75 AP each would cost 15 real pts/power Flexible or 7 points/power Fixed. At the end of the day you'd save 64 points buying everything Fixed. Adding that to a MP Pool could be significant.

 

Of course, your powers would always be on or off, but couldn't a character compensate with more powers/greater diversity of powers?

 

How is changing Skill Levels at the beginning and half phase any different? (Remember, type slowly, I don't read so fast)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

As many here already know... Me is pretty stupid!

 

That being said... Is it ever really cost effective to buy a Flexible Slot with the "change only once per phase" rule? Couldn't you buy up the pool enough with points saved from Fixed slots to cover using multiple powers at a time? (especially in big MPs)

 

A MP with 8 slots at 75 AP each would cost 15 real pts/power Flexible or 7 points/power Fixed. At the end of the day you'd save 64 points buying everything Fixed. Adding that to a MP Pool could be significant.

 

Of course, your powers would always be on or off, but couldn't a character compensate with more powers/greater diversity of powers?

 

How is changing Skill Levels at the beginning and half phase any different? (Remember, type slowly, I don't read so fast)

 

I think the Flexible Slot Multipower is only cost effective when there is a very limited # of slots. After a certain threshold is reached it becomes cheaper to buy a VPP instead of more Multipower Slots. This number is dependent on any common Limitations on the Multipower. The more Limitations, the more slots it can have before the switch makes sense since the Limitations don't reduce the overall cost of a VPP as much (if at all).

[pinecone]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

Is there a reason that a character can only change his Multipower once a phase>

 

"A character can change the way his Multipower

reserve points are distributed or allocated

as a Zero Phase Action. However, unless the

GM permits otherwise, he may not distribute or

allocate reserve points more than once in a Phase."

 

I realize this has almost always been the rule, but I'm not convinced it's anything but arbitrary (perhaps to tone down the power of the Multipower). There are multiple instances in Hero, however, where a character can do equally impressive things at the beginning of his Phase AND at the Half Phase.

 

Thoughts???

 

(I'm contemplating making it a House Rule that MPs can be changed as a Zero Phase Action at the beginning of a character's Phase and at the Half Phase - with the exception of an Aborted reallocation that would remain the same until the character's next available action)

 

Well it's mostly a "ballence" issue...example: Munchkin Man "I put my multi all on my PD force feild, then hold a 1/2 phase till after Grond hits me, Then I'll change my Multi, and attack" so as long as you have rational and fair players, it's all good, otherwise it gets bad fast....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

Variable Slots are best when MPs are not particularly specialized and you're putting in Defensive, Offensive, and possibly even Movement Powers into it. Being able to dial them up and down under one pool is extremely helpful - ESPECIALLY with the rule of 'only one change of slots per Phase'.

 

That said, I almost always only see Variable Slots in Fantasy Hero games on mages.

[Ice9]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

One thing I've noticed is that many powers stack with themselves (most defense, for example). For those powers, buying two fixed slots (for the normal / maxed amount) can be as effective as a variable slot, at half the price.

For instance:

 

40 Chi Control (40p Multipower)

8v +40 STR

8v +40m Running

5v Resistant Protection (12/12), Costs END

TOTAL: 61p

 

40 Chi Control (40p Multipower)

2f +20 STR

2f +20 STR

2f +20m Running

2f +20m Running

1f Resistant Protection (6/6), Costs END

1f Resistant Protection (6/6), Costs END

TOTAL: 50p

 

Sure, you don't have as precise control, but for many applications, a standard-use / max-power split is all you'd be setting a variable slot to anyway.

Not a huge difference, but it is somewhat of a quirk.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

One thing I've noticed is that many powers stack with themselves (most defense, for example). For those powers, buying two fixed slots (for the normal / maxed amount) can be as effective as a variable slot, at half the price.

For instance:

 

40 Chi Control (40p Multipower)

8v +40 STR

8v +40m Running

5v Resistant Protection (12/12), Costs END

TOTAL: 61p

 

40 Chi Control (40p Multipower)

2f +20 STR

2f +20 STR

2f +20m Running

2f +20m Running

1f Resistant Protection (6/6), Costs END

1f Resistant Protection (6/6), Costs END

TOTAL: 50p

 

Sure, you don't have as precise control, but for many applications, a standard-use / max-power split is all you'd be setting a variable slot to anyway.

Not a huge difference, but it is somewhat of a quirk.

 

 

That 2nd Multipower is at best skirting the RAW.

 

From the rules FAQ:

 

The rules forbid a slot in a Framework from “add[ing] to or modify[ing]” a slot in another Framework. Does this mean:

 

1. That STR as a Power bought in a Framework cannot add damage to an HA or HKA bought through the same Framework or another Framework?

2. That Growth, Density Increase, and/or STR bought as a Power in Framework slots does not add the STR they provide to the STR provided by those other two Powers?

3. That a Mental Power in, say, a Multipower cannot be used via Mind Scan bought in an Elemental Control?

 

1-2. Yes. As a default, the standard rules should apply — no linking or working together, so the STR can’t add to the HA/HKA; nor can the STR from, say, DI add to the STR from Growth. As always, the GM is free to change this if he feels it’s appropriate to do so in light of common sense, dramatic sense, special effects, and/or considerations of game balance.

 

3. No, because the two aren’t “adding to or modifying” each other.

Could two Power Frameworks each add to or modify the same Characteristic or Power that’s not a Framework slot?

 

The rules say that two Power Frameworks or Framework slots can’t add to or modify each other. That’s a completely different thing from two Frameworks both having slots that add to the same game element outside the Framework (e.g., HA slots in two different Multipowers that both add to STR). There’s no rule against that, though the GM may very well forbid it in the interest of game balance, common sense, and/or dramatic sense.

 

How the different powers are going to interact with the power they add to depends on the standard rules for adding damage and so forth. Since they can’t add to or modify each other, trying to add them both to the same game element if they have different Advantages or the like doesn’t work. (The same applies even if only one or neither of them is a Framework slot.) For example, if a character has two HAs, an HA +6d6 and an HA +4d6 Autofire, either of which add to his 30 STR base damage of 6d6, he’s got to pick one or the other to add. He can’t add both, since the Advantages differ and there’s no provision in the rules for an Advantage on an ability to freely “carry over” to another ability built with that same Power when they’re used together.

Could two Power Frameworks each add to or modify the same Characteristic or Power that’s not a Framework slot?

 

The rules say that two Power Frameworks or Framework slots can’t add to or modify each other. That’s a completely different thing from two Frameworks both having slots that add to the same game element outside the Framework (e.g., HA slots in two different Multipowers that both add to STR). There’s no rule against that, though the GM may very well forbid it in the interest of game balance, common sense, and/or dramatic sense.

 

How the different powers are going to interact with the power they add to depends on the standard rules for adding damage and so forth. Since they can’t add to or modify each other, trying to add them both to the same game element if they have different Advantages or the like doesn’t work. (The same applies even if only one or neither of them is a Framework slot.) For example, if a character has two HAs, an HA +6d6 and an HA +4d6 Autofire, either of which add to his 30 STR base damage of 6d6, he’s got to pick one or the other to add. He can’t add both, since the Advantages differ and there’s no provision in the rules for an Advantage on an ability to freely “carry over” to another ability built with that same Power when they’re used together.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

One thing I've noticed is that many powers stack with themselves (most defense, for example). For those powers, buying two fixed slots (for the normal / maxed amount) can be as effective as a variable slot, at half the price.

For instance:

 

40 Chi Control (40p Multipower)

8v +40 STR

8v +40m Running

5v Resistant Protection (12/12), Costs END

TOTAL: 61p

 

40 Chi Control (40p Multipower)

2f +20 STR

2f +20 STR

2f +20m Running

2f +20m Running

1f Resistant Protection (6/6), Costs END

1f Resistant Protection (6/6), Costs END

TOTAL: 50p

 

Sure, you don't have as precise control, but for many applications, a standard-use / max-power split is all you'd be setting a variable slot to anyway.

Not a huge difference, but it is somewhat of a quirk.

 

That 2nd Multipower is at best skirting the RAW.

 

From the rules FAQ:

 

So let's buy two Multipowers:

 

20 Chi Control (20p Multipower)

2f +20 STR

2f +20m Running

1f Resistant Protection (6/6), Costs END

TOTAL: 25p

 

and

 

20 Chi Control (20p Multipower)

2f +20 STR

2f +20m Running

1f Resistant Protection (6/6), Costs END

TOTAL: 25p

 

Better yet, let's make them a focus. Then I can buy the first one and pay 5 points to have twice as many. That works under RAW. Two different slots in two different MP's both adding to the same non-MP ability.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

See, this is what I'm talking about.

[secretID]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

Better yet' date=' let's make them a focus. Then I can buy the first one and pay 5 points to have twice as many. That works under RAW. Two different slots in two different MP's both adding to the same non-MP ability.[/quote']

That rule is totally nuts. I couldn't believe it when I learned (via a Q to Steve, IIRC) that you could use the 5-point rule with a MP focus and have each focus on a different slot. With a powered armor character, why buy an attack MP, defensive powers, movement powers, etc.? Instead, just buy one OIF MP with slots for all of those things, then buy 3 more "items," and devote one to each purpose.

 

It's theoretically possible that I would allow a second identical focus for 5 points, but never if it were a MP.

 

Re the original question, others have illustrated what the alternative to the RAW would look like. The RAW seem to balance well, so I wouldn't do that big a change. Clever MP designers would have overpowered characters. Of course, some GMs are more willing to eyeball each player for power and balance; I prefer to just let the limits rule in most cases.

[Ice9]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

It seems like that rule is or having a backup copy, not a second copy that you can use simultaneously. If not, it should be!

[dmjalund]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

Seems simple enough to make a ruling that the +5 doubling rule does not apply to power structures (including Multipowers and VPPs)

[Ice9]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

I don't think it would be much more balanced for non-frameworks either. Sure, for attack powers, it's not doing anything you couldn't already do with Multiple Attack.

 

But imagine this:

60 Force Shell Generator - Resistant Defense (20 PD/20 ED/20 Power Defense), OIF

5 Another Force Shell Generator - x2 number of items

 

Or even, for the real cheese, this:

10 Kinetic Amplifier - +10 STR, Reduced END (0 END), OIF

20 And Fifteen More - x16 number of items

 

Conversely, for a Multipower with only Instant powers in it, it's not going to do anything cheesy.

[secretID]

Re: Changing your Multipower

 

I don't think it would be much more balanced for non-frameworks either.

True, but somehow it just seems even crazier with MPs - maybe because you could deliberately do 2x the same MP when you never have any intention of using one as a MP. I think it probably works much better in heroic campaigns - I haven't GMed one of those.