Merge Ability

[Guest memorax]

In my game I have two characters with two diffrent abilities to merge into one character. I was wondering how would you handle this?

[Steve Long]

Since this is a "how to" and not a rules question, I've moved it.

 

What do you think, Herodom Assembled?

[altamaros]

Re: Merge Ability

 

Originally posted by memorax

In my game I have two characters with two diffrent abilities to merge into one character. I was wondering how would you handle this?

 

i think this has been discussed before and the subject is also mentioned in the Ultimate Vehicle (in the MECH chapter)

 

it's a combination of multiform and duplication :

the character has two forms (multiform) :

one -the un-merged form- has duplication (eventually with the limitation "cannot recombine")

the other -the merged form- doesn't have duplication thus the duplicates must morph together to the merged form.

 

which form buy the multiform on is up to you.

 

buying duplication and multiform on the same sheet make (comparatively) weaker duplicates and stronger merged form

 

buying duplication on one sheet and multiform on the other balances the two aspects (the un-merged form will have roughtly the same level of power than the merged one)

[JmOz]

Except buying them on the two sheets does not work (If the dup has multiform it can transform, it does not need the base form) You have to have them on both. If your GM is generous he may consider allowing both in a Multipower

[JmOz]

Also remember that a Multiform can be more powerful than the base form if needed (This can allow for the more powerful character as well)

[altamaros]

Originally posted by JmOz

Also remember that a Multiform can be more powerful than the base form if needed (This can allow for the more powerful character as well)

Yup!!

 

Something i never allow in my game since potentially abusive. that's why i forgot this point thanx.

 

Originally posted by JmOz

Except buying them on the two sheets does not work (If the dup has multiform it can transform, it does not need the base form) You have to have them on both. If your GM is generous he may consider allowing both in a Multipower

or eventually a "linked" limitation.

 

I think i miss your point.

i don't really understand : you mean you have to have duplication and multiform on the same sheet ?

 

Honestly i fail to see why :

 

A is merged form

B1 and B2 are the duplicates.

 

case 1)

concept : merged form is base form.

form A has multiform to B

form B has duplication to B1 and B2

 

A is the merged form so when un-merging,

- A transforms into B.

- B duplicates into B1 and B2.

 

"Suppress" Multiform while the PC is duplicated makes him revert back to the merged form

"Suppress" Multiform while the PC is merged has no effect

 

case 2)

concept : duplicated form is base form.

form B has multiform to A

form B has duplication to B1 and B2

 

A is the merged form so when un-merging,

- A revert back to B.

- B duplicates into B1 and B2.

"Suppress" Multiform while the PC is duplicated has no effect

"Suppress" Multiform while the PC is merged makes him revert back to the duplicated form

[JmOz]

Okay YOU just confused me

 

Terminology: Original Form: The form that possesses the power Duplication

 

Dupe (and all variations) : Created by power Duplication

 

Base Form: The form that has the Multiform Power

 

 

 

 

Here is what I am saying:

 

If Original form takes Duplication, then one of the dupes takes Multiform it does not work.

You get original form + Duplicate that can transform

 

I hope we agree on THIS much

 

If you take the Base form, and then give it's transformed form Duplication...Actualy this COULD work for you. The thing to remember about this set up is that when the vehicle parks it normaly does so in it's combined form

 

With the Dup/Multiform on the same you have more of a Black Lion, Colored Lions, Voltron thing going on

[altamaros]

Okayyyyyy

 

Yes, i confused you JmOz : sorry !!

i agree on your point

 

a last note, Memorax; to get different abilities for each duplicate you will have to take the advantage "altered duplicates" (see "Duplication" in the Powers section) on duplication (whoever takes it)

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by JmOz

Except buying them on the two sheets does not work (If the dup has multiform it can transform, it does not need the base form) You have to have them on both. If your GM is generous he may consider allowing both in a Multipower

 

Actually, it depends on which is the "base" form. If you consider the duplicated forms to be the "normal" state of being of this character, they it's one of them that pays for the Multiform. You'd just put a Limitation on it such as "not while duplicated" (base the value on how often the character is duplicated, or have the opportunity to recombine).

[JTesla]

Just a tad bit of confusion on my part. I have to warn you that I am new to Hero after 10 years off so I might be missing something simple.

 

Form A, Multiforms to Form B.

Form B splits (Duplicates) to B and B1

 

Is there a way in game terms, or is it simply up to roleplaying, to force Form B to either duplicate or revert to Form A? In other words can you have the merged Form A or the split Forms B and B1 but never have the un-split Form B.

 

In terms of Dispel and Supress, in Altamaros’ “Case Aâ€; I could see this leading to abuse or something with an odd explanation. If Form B1 is in Tahiti, and Form B, while in Omaha, is hit with Dispel, suddenly they are merged back to Form A? Dispel suddenly becomes a get B out of jail card (because we all know B is the bad one).

[altamaros]

From the Hero FAQ :

Q: If a character has Multiform, and one of his forms has Duplication but his true form does not, what happens if, while in that form and Duplicated, he changes form back to his true form?

A: When the character changes form back to the form that lacks Duplication, the Duplicate vanishes. For this reason, the GM should only let the base character change form if he’s in contact with his Duplicate, and/or spends a Full Phase (as if recombining), or meets any other restrictions that seem appropriate for the special effect.

Q: If a character with Duplication also has Multiform, and he changes to a form that doesn’t have Duplication while he has Duplicates in existence, what happens to the Duplicates?

A: If a base character with Duplication and Multiform changes his form to a form that does not have Duplication, any Duplicates currently in existence simply disappear. If the character shifts back to the form that has Duplication, the Duplicates do not re-appear; he has to create them again.

To prevent this sort of thing from happening, the character should buy Duplication for his Multiform as well. In that case, the Duplicates remain. They do not change shape themselves, unless they have a power that allows them to do so and choose to use it. If a character wants to buy Duplication for his additional form(s) solely to maintain the existence of his Duplicates, he can take a -1 Limitation on the power as bought by the additional forms.

If a character buys Duplication with the Cannot Recombine Limitation, or for some reason the Inherent Advantage, that doesn’t change the base rule stated above. In that case he must buy Multiform for his Duplicates so they all change shape when he changes shape, unless the GM rules otherwise. Most special effects of Cannot Recombine (or the like) involve a “collection†of “characters†who are really just various aspects of a single, unified body (example: a hydra). Thus, all the “Duplicates†would have to change at the same time as the “base form†changes — the special effect is it’s all one body that just has the ability of various parts to act independently. In the event the Cannot Recombine signifies something like, say, having a clone, the GM could allow the base character to change shape without requiring the Duplicate to do so, or causing the Duplicate to disappear. In that case he might require a +1/2 Advantage for the Duplication and/or Multiform to represent this fact.

Q: If a character with Duplication also has Multiform, and the Multiform’s abilities are extremely different from those of the Duplicates, does the Duplication have to be bought with the Altered Duplicates Advantage?

A: No, though the fact that the Duplicates lack the Multiform Power may itself mean that Advantage is required, as discussed elsewhere in this FAQ.

 

now your point :

Originally posted by JTesla

Just a tad bit of confusion on my part. I have to warn you that I am new to Hero after 10 years off so I might be missing something simple.

 

Form A, Multiforms to Form B.

Form B splits (Duplicates) to B and B1

 

Is there a way in game terms, or is it simply up to roleplaying, to force Form B to either duplicate or revert to Form A? In other words can you have the merged Form A or the split Forms B and B1 but never have the un-split Form B.

 

yep, a "linked" lmimitation at -1/4 on one of the power or, better, the "cannot recombine" limitation (-0) on duplication should do the trick (as :

form A multiforms to form B. as form B has duplication with the "cannot recombine" lim; B automatically splits into B1 and B2 (0 phase action; would i even say).

 

Originally posted by JTesla

In terms of Dispel and Supress, in Altamaros’ “Case Aâ€; I could see this leading to abuse or something with an odd explanation. If Form B1 is in Tahiti, and Form B, while in Omaha, is hit with Dispel, suddenly they are merged back to Form A? Dispel suddenly becomes a get B out of jail card (because we all know B is the bad one).

first, i think i made a error : i'm unsure Dispel would work since it must be used at the very moment the targeted power is used but let's go with Drain or Suppress.

 

Personally, i'd say that if the character is not affected by the Suppression unless he's in the right conditions (original form and duplicate in adjacent hexes) but that would be a weird situation :

character A has duplication (the regular, without advantages)

character B has duplication with "ranged recombination".

 

B is actually more vulnerable to Suppress and drain than A since he only has to be in LOS of his duplicate to be affected ???

(some might object that, as B has more active points in his duplication, he's actually less vulnerable; that's also a point).

 

I think "inherent" should be a mandatory advantage fro duplication in this case.

 

another solution for harsh GMs : if the original form and his duplicate cannot recombine while affected by a drain/suppress then the duplicate *dies*.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Merge Ability

 

Originally posted by memorax

In my game I have two characters with two diffrent abilities to merge into one character. I was wondering how would you handle this?

 

Wouldn't the simplest way to do this be for each character to buy Multiform with the limitation that they need to be touching to transform. Each character would bear half the cost of the multiform which would be determined by the cost of the merged creature.

 

It might not be 100% kosher but it sure is a lot simpler than the numerical nightmares that I've seen here so far. This has the advantage that it is easy to see the rationale - both characters (I assume different players) pay something towards the cost of merging and for the loss of two characters the team gets one more powerful one.

[CrosshairCollie]

Here's a whacked out idea ... probably illegal as all get out, but ... how about buying a Summon between the two that summons a specific being (the gestalt form), with a side-effect of Extra-Dimensional movement that sends the two 'original' characters into some subspace, while the combined form is active?

 

(Note: From the initial post, I'm not sure if you have two different PCs that combine into a new form, or if they're all the 'same character'. I'm assuming that it's two separate PCs with two separate players.)

[altamaros]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie

Here's a whacked out idea ... probably illegal as all get out, but ... how about buying a Summon between the two that summons a specific being (the gestalt form), with a side-effect of Extra-Dimensional movement that sends the two 'original' characters into some subspace, while the combined form is active?

IMHO it's legal but a summoned being is under the GM's control not the player's

[Farkling]

An effete lawyer and a drunken street hobo were involved in the explosion of a quark generating cyclotron. Now, when they remain in contact with each other for more than a turn can become Captain Napalm.

 

So, we begin by building Captain Napalm on our allowed points.

 

Captain Napalm has Duplication in addition to his Napalm Powers and abilities. When Captain Napalm duplicates, he must create both duplicates. His Duplication has a tremendous Side Effect also, for Captian Napalam himself ceases to exist as a superhero...sort of a reverse only in Hero ID..."only in mundane ID maybe?"

 

He has become component parts so to speak. And is extremely vulnerable to supervillain attack, though he may be difficult for the villains to LOCATE...

I should think that is limitation enough, and I wouldn't charge you for a Multiform on top of it.

 

Cut out the middle form entirely.

Form A

Form B1 + B2 are smaller and/or radically different forms of Form A.

 

Now...if you want to have Captain Napalm be stronger than the GM's camapign limits, it will take some finagling of the GM. But considering the other approach...you would be paying extra points for the multiform AND extra points for altered duplicates. I'd do it this way. Split Captain Napalm's abilities between the two others to reduce the cost of the "altered" duplicates also.

 

YMMV

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Re: Merge Ability

 

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

Wouldn't the simplest way to do this be for each character to buy Multiform with the limitation that they need to be touching to transform. Each character would bear half the cost of the multiform which would be determined by the cost of the merged creature.

 

It might not be 100% kosher but it sure is a lot simpler than the numerical nightmares that I've seen here so far. This has the advantage that it is easy to see the rationale - both characters (I assume different players) pay something towards the cost of merging and for the loss of two characters the team gets one more powerful one.

This is one of the means for handling this in TUV, and the one I favor for the situation memorax describes.

[prestidigitator]

I would be interested, if it is two PCs we are talking about, in who retains control of the combined form. If one of the PCs has control, I might say use some kind of Aid to the primary character's Multiform, with either a Side Effect or a linked Desolidification/Extradimensional Movement (maybe with Mind Link thrown in there).

 

If there is some kind of weird Voltron situation, where each player has control of part of the combined form, then go with the idea of both having Multiform but having to be together.

 

If the players have to come to a consensus over the control of the combined form, then they and your game are probably both screwed. I have no idea what I'd do.

[pinecone]

Hmmm...is multiform even needed? Can't someone buy Duplication:altered(less powerfull) Dupes and buy a bus load O' powers with the not when duped limit? So lawyer-lad buys loads o' powers not when duped (and is in this example the dominate personality) buys a 150 point dupe with lot's of streetwise and the like...when duped both halves are compitant normals,when merged he becomes Macho-man (Heh physics humor) maybe buy a SE or sucept that kicks in if too much time is spent merged and you're done...???

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

If the players have to come to a consensus over the control of the combined form, then they and your game are probably both screwed. I have no idea what I'd do.

If two players coming to a consensus over control is this much of a problem, then the game is probably screwed even without this issue. (JMO)

[JmOz]

Originally posted by pinecone

Hmmm...is multiform even needed? Can't someone buy Duplication:altered(less powerfull) Dupes and buy a bus load O' powers with the not when duped limit? So lawyer-lad buys loads o' powers not when duped (and is in this example the dominate personality) buys a 150 point dupe with lot's of streetwise and the like...when duped both halves are compitant normals,when merged he becomes Macho-man (Heh physics humor) maybe buy a SE or sucept that kicks in if too much time is spent merged and you're done...???

 

It could be done that way, but I dislike the idea of taking the "Not while Duplicated limitation" in most cases, it works well when it is a limited ability or just a couple of abilities, but to much of it seems wrong to me.

 

You also get the problem if the combined individual does not nesesarily have all the abilities of the base form...

[pinecone]

Jimoz I also normally share your distaste, but this an odd construct,the only comic hero I can think of is Fusion from DC ...I was thinking the dominate personality would keep all it's skills and psychs,and the nondominate would be submerged.....

[JmOz]

Not familiar with the character.

 

THe only one like this I can think of is the Infinity Man from the 4th world...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by pinecone

Jimoz I also normally share your distaste, but this an odd construct,the only comic hero I can think of is Fusion from DC ...I was thinking the dominate personality would keep all it's skills and psychs,and the nondominate would be submerged.....

 

I think you mean "Firestorm, the Nuclear Man", right? Ronnie Raymond and Martin Stein were caught in a fusion explosion, which merged them into Firestorm. They could seperate and fuse at will, and could fuse (transform into Firestorm) even if many miles apart.

 

As a side note, one of Firestorm's major villains was Multiplex, who could create duplicates of himself using an outside energy source (like electricity). He, too, had been caught in a nuclear blast...in his case, a fission reaction.

[SuperBlue]

Hm...

 

The easiest way would to do a writeup of a super-powerful character... and give him a mutiform and duplication...

 

OR

 

Have each player do a write-up, and then have them buy a new power called: Fusion (okay.. so it rips off DBZ).

 

anyway, have the base cost of fusion be 10 points to create a normal person from fusion. For each 1 CP spent on Fusion, the Fused Form gains 5 points. HOWEVER, fusion can only be used by a single pair of characters. For a chacter to use Fusion with more than one person, he/she must spend an addition 5 CP for each person fusable. Another thing, Both character must have an equal number of Points invested in Fusion, or The Fused Creation only has as many points as the lower of the two costs. One final note, the Fused form cannot have more than 1 1/2 times the average point level of the fused characters without the 1/1 point cost. The fusion only lasts 1 Full Turn before wearing off. However, the time length can be moved down one step on the time chart as per +1/4 on the base cost (10+X)

 

So...

 

Let's say Thunder and Atlas are twin mutants, and they find a magic item that allows 2 people to merge into a single being for 1 hour. Both Thunder and Atlas are build on a total of 250 points. This means they can potentiall fuse into single being with a total of 375 points without paying 1/1 point. To get the full 375pt character, they must spend 85 points (10 Base + 375/5 = 85 points) and must advance the time chart by 4 clicks (I think it goes 1 Turn, 1 Minute, 5 Minute, 1 Hour, yes?). This means the Fusion Cost will be 85x(1+1)=170 points. Of course, this IS a magic item so it gets IIF and IND... which would knock the price down considerably

 

EDIT: Fusion Base cost: 10 points. 5 CP for 1 point. Fused form cannot exceed 1.5 times the AVG of fused pair without paying a 1/1 cost for each point beyond limit. Fusion only lasts 1 turn, this can be extended down on the time chart for +1/4 advantage. Fusion can only occur between a single pair. An additional fusion partner costs an addition 5 points

 

Not very cost effective, but it should simulate what you want to do, and you would need GM's permision to use such a power. Depends on the situation.

[pinecone]

Yes! Firestorm...Not Fusion...Thanx.....