Medusa of Psi in Practice

[Cardinal]

Has anyone here extensively used Medusa from PSI in a game. How does that work out? From a quick review she seems completely unbalanced in play and I wanted to see if that was the reality.

 

On average her mental paralysis will have 8def / 6 body and is defended by EGO + MD. While I understand she has low def and is comparatively slow, her personality of striking from surprise means that she will likely be able to get the first shot which will effectively be the last shot.

 

By way of comparison, I've compared this entangle against three mentalist / mystic characters that would be expected to be able to stand up against her without too much issue.

 

Mentalla 25 EGO, 15 MD (7D6) - 657 pts

Overbrain 30 EGO, 15MD (6D6 Mental Blast) - 905 (skill heavy) pts

Dark Seraph 20 EGO, 10 MD (alt 9D6 Mental blast if allowed by SFX) - 927 pts

 

The result, without pushing and average rolls, is:

Mentalla would never be able to break out of the mental paralysis

Overbrain 6 phases to break out

Dark Serpah never based on EGO + MD and if an "Agony" sfx were allowed against the entangle 6 phases

An average hero with 20 Ego would never be able to get out.... even with pushing.

 

I understand that one expects that a 150+AP power is going to be nasty. I'm just worried it is unplayable. I would think that it would be a "more" balanced power if it maxed at about 4 def (so that no normal 10 EGO would be able to get out) and instead had 10d6 for body. This would allow the result of being taken out for a while, but with the chance of getting back in the game.

 

I would appreciate feedback from anyone who has actually ever used her.

 

Thanks

[TheRealParagon]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

This character is from CKC 5th ed.

 

Don't remember how or if entangle has changed in the 6th and too lazy to look it up in the tome that is book1.

 

Assuming you're using the fifth edition without conversion keep in mind that entangle is similar to grab. it only tends to effect two limbs at once. This doesn't seem like a big distinction but think about it.

 

If I'm Medusa I don't necessarily know what my opponents abilities are. If I "Paralyze" your legs maybe you have cosmic beams you can shoot from your hands or a knockout dart you can reach on your Bat Belt. If you can fly then it doesn't matter if I "paralyze" your legs, you could still move and punch me. If I attack your arms you could still kick me. See where I'm getting at. Most characters will have 5 limbs two arms two legs and a head.

 

Certainly with repeated applications Medusa could use her power to paralyze your whole body, but that would take some time

 

Even if the GM chooses to interpret the leg paralysis as being able to stick the opponent floor there are other ways of breaking free or moving. Turning intangible or teleportation would allow an opponent to escape with ease and return offense. Dark Seraph would do this then rip Medusa's veins out for fun and use her as a puppet to entertain the fellow Crowns of Krim.

 

Yes this is a powerful ability but there are creative ways around it. Remember you always have the option of reducing the effect level of the power for balance (or increasing

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

I would definitely tone Medusa down, or alternately hold her in reserve for emergency situations. As a team of mentalists, PSI tend to be hard to judge against PCs, in my experience; just the presence of a PC mentalist can affect their efficiency considerably.

 

One thing I do for Mental Entangles is give bonus breakout dice based on Psych Lims, if appropriate. +2d6 for a Strong Lim, +4d6 for a Total, assuming that obeying the Lim and breaking out are compatible. So, if someone's Afraid of Fire and has been paralyzed, and then a fire breaks out, they get a bonus to escape.

[TheRealParagon]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

(I posted this message a couple of days ago but it didn't take so here it is again)

 

This character is from CKC 5th ed.

 

Don't remember how or if entangle has changed in the 6th and too lazy to look it up in the tome that is book1.

 

Assuming you're using the fifth edition without conversion keep in mind that entangle is similar to grab. it only tends to effect two limbs at once. This doesn't seem like a big distinction but think about it.

 

If I'm Medusa I don't necessarily know what my opponents abilities are. If I "Paralyze" your legs maybe you have cosmic beams you can shoot from your hands or a knockout dart you can reach on your Bat Belt. If you can fly then it doesn't matter if I "paralyze" your legs, you could still move and punch me. If I attack your arms you could still kick me. See where I'm getting at. Most characters will have 5 limbs two arms two legs and a head.

 

Certainly with repeated applications Medusa could use her power to paralyze your whole body, but that would take some time

 

Even if the GM chooses to interpret the leg paralysis as being able to stick the opponent floor there are other ways of breaking free or moving. Turning intangible or teleportation would allow an opponent to escape with ease and return offense. Dark Seraph would do this then rip Medusa's veins out for fun and use her as a puppet to entertain the fellow Crowns of Krim.

 

Yes this is a powerful ability but there are creative ways around it. Remember you always have the option of reducing the effect level of the power for balance (or increasing

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

Sounds like a classic comic book trope. Her attack will paralyze anyone she wants, and the heroes need to avoid her attack and take her down.

 

I suspect my PC's would suffer considerably in a first encounter and, in future, make her a priority target.

[Mathew]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

So as is standard with many mentalist vs. non mentalist combats, the first one who hits the other wins. A normal super could clobber her with one punch, or she can freeze them with one thought.

[fbdaury]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

I need to point out a few errors on your post in regard to how these situations would play out:

By way of comparison, I've compared this entangle against three mentalist / mystic characters that would be expected to be able to stand up against her without too much issue.

 

Mentalla 25 EGO, 15 MD (7D6) - 657 pts

Overbrain 30 EGO, 15MD (6D6 Mental Blast) - 905 (skill heavy) pts

Dark Seraph 20 EGO, 10 MD (alt 9D6 Mental blast if allowed by SFX) - 927 pts

Except:

25 Ego +15 Mental Defense = 40, which equals 8d6 roll to break free

30 Ego +15 Mental Defense = 45, which equals 9d6 roll to break free

20 Ego +10 Mental Defense = 30, which equals 6d6 roll to break free

 

The result, without pushing and average rolls, is:

Mentalla would never be able to break out of the mental paralysis

Overbrain 6 phases to break out

Dark Serpah never based on EGO + MD and if an "Agony" sfx were allowed against the entangle 6 phases

An average hero with 20 Ego would never be able to get out.... even with pushing.

 

Except that, even if your original numbers had been correct, when you roll the Ego, a roll of 6 on d6 produces a 2 Body instead of 1- so any one of these charactes would be able to overcome the defense of the Mental Paralysis with high enough rolls even before pushing their Ego.

 

I realize that you did mention average rolls but basing a character never getting out of an entangle on average rolls is loading the dice to make your point- fact is, how often does someone roll all 3's and 4's on any roll?

 

Even if you averaged a result of 3.5 per die, some of those numbers rolled might be 1 or 6, modifying the number of Body accrued in the roll, for example, to use Mentalla as the victim in question (even basing her on 7d6, instead of the proper 8d6), when the entangle goes off, she rolls 7d6 to break free, with results of 6,6,2,2,2,3,3 = 24 Stun (average roll figures at 3.5/die= 24.5 on 7d6) and 9 Body- meaning it would be hard but yes, Mentalla would be able to get out of the Mental Paralysis effect without using any of her Powers or pushing- with the actual 8d6 she has to roll it becomes even more likely.

 

Dangerous and likely to tie target up for awhile? Sure. Unstoppable? No. And for a 181 active point power, there are a lot more dangerous ways to have built that effect- like 5d6 entangle with 10 Def instead of 6d6/Def 8.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

Actually, the more dice are being tossed around, the less likely a higher or lower than average BOD total becomes. With a 5 defense mental entangle, all three of the examples will break out over time. With an 8 defense, 6d6 will take a LONG time.

 

Will some characters be trapped for an extended period of time? Sure. A 181 AP power should be pretty potent, shouldn't it? Maybe the Heroes will have to use some teamwork and tactics, rather than just standing and trading blows against individual opponents.

[Hermit]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

I suppose I've been fortunate in that we often have either mentalists or a mystics with a mental blast type spell in our groups. Haymaker it up, and it can help free yourself or a friend. Still a pain in the butt...er brain to face her mind you.

[Clonus]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

Has anyone here extensively used Medusa from PSI in a game. How does that work out? From a quick review she seems completely unbalanced in play and I wanted to see if that was the reality.

 

On average her mental paralysis will have 8def / 6 body and is defended by EGO + MD. While I understand she has low def and is comparatively slow, her personality of striking from surprise means that she will likely be able to get the first shot which will effectively be the last shot.

 

 

In a one on one fight where she actually manages to get the benefit of surprise, sure. In a group melee or one where she hasn't been handed the advantage, not so much.

[Cardinal]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

I need to point out a few errors on your post in regard to how these situations would play out:

 

Except:

25 Ego +15 Mental Defense = 40, which equals 8d6 roll to break free

30 Ego +15 Mental Defense = 45, which equals 9d6 roll to break free

20 Ego +10 Mental Defense = 30, which equals 6d6 roll to break free

 

 

 

Except that, even if your original numbers had been correct, when you roll the Ego, a roll of 6 on d6 produces a 2 Body instead of 1- so any one of these charactes would be able to overcome the defense of the Mental Paralysis with high enough rolls even before pushing their Ego.

 

I realize that you did mention average rolls but basing a character never getting out of an entangle on average rolls is loading the dice to make your point- fact is, how often does someone roll all 3's and 4's on any roll?

 

Even if you averaged a result of 3.5 per die, some of those numbers rolled might be 1 or 6, modifying the number of Body accrued in the roll, for example, to use Mentalla as the victim in question (even basing her on 7d6, instead of the proper 8d6), when the entangle goes off, she rolls 7d6 to break free, with results of 6,6,2,2,2,3,3 = 24 Stun (average roll figures at 3.5/die= 24.5 on 7d6) and 9 Body- meaning it would be hard but yes, Mentalla would be able to get out of the Mental Paralysis effect without using any of her Powers or pushing- with the actual 8d6 she has to roll it becomes even more likely.

 

Dangerous and likely to tie target up for awhile? Sure. Unstoppable? No. And for a 181 active point power, there are a lot more dangerous ways to have built that effect- like 5d6 entangle with 10 Def instead of 6d6/Def 8.

 

 

Thanks for the catch on the math. My bad. However, my point was not that Mentalla would never get out. My point was that even against high powered mentalists and mystics (who speciality is mental powers), Medusa's attacks is effectively a "one shot kill" for that combat.

 

Let's look at that in more detail. While I agree you are not going to end up with all 3 and 4's, but for every 6 you have a chance to offset it with a 1. As such, on average you will end up with 1 Body and 3.5 stun per die. However, Mentalla can roll above average. However, she will have to consistently roll above average in order to get out. That means that she would need (on average) six above average rolls in order to break out. Assuming that 50% of the time she will roll above average body (which as Hugh points over states the case), this means that she will need 12 phases (roughly 2 turns) on average to break out. Two turns is pretty much an entire combat. Dark Seraph and Overbrain are each knocked out for 6 phases on average, or a turn.

 

... and this is for mentalists / mystics. Goodness help you if it is not your speciality.

 

If you want a straw man, let's look at one that is not too far fetched. Call it 20 EGO + 0 MD (I think the MD is probably representative but the ego is probably high for an average character). In that case even by rolling a <1% outcome of 8 body on 4D6, the PC will NEVER break out.

 

It sounds like people's experience (as noted by Matthew and Hugh) is that Medusa is effectively an even more extreme version of the normal "pile on the mentalist" situation. What hooks would you use as a GM in order to play into the comic book toupe that Hugh referenced of you lose round one and figure out a way to win round 2? I suspect, given her powerset, this is likely going to be the very non-heroic sneak attack.

 

Also, random question, is their a default under the rules about whether a mental entangle disappears if Medusa is knocked out? If not, I would strongly considering adding that to the power. That would do a lot to turning the tables on Psi if she gets taken out (all of a sudden 5 frozen heroes pop back to life).

 

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I appreciate the variety of perspectives as I noodle this through.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

Any 180 AP attack will pretty much be a one shot KO in a standard Champions game. That's a 36d6 EB or a 12d6 KA.

 

A Flash or Darkness field wreaks havoc on characters who target by line of sight. She can freeze one target, but good luck getting a second if the PC's know what they're up against.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

Basically, in true comic book fashion, the players will probably be overwhlemed the first time they fight her(especially if she has backup), but if the players are smart and learn from the experience, they'll find ways to deal with her.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

Actually, the more dice are being tossed around, the less likely a higher or lower than average BOD total becomes. With a 5 defense mental entangle, all three of the examples will break out over time. With an 8 defense, 6d6 will take a LONG time.

 

Will some characters be trapped for an extended period of time? Sure. A 181 AP power should be pretty potent, shouldn't it? Maybe the Heroes will have to use some teamwork and tactics, rather than just standing and trading blows against individual opponents.

 

Perhaps, but it's no fun for the player whose character is the one who basically gets removed from play. With a power like that, you can't even blame a lucky shot/high roll; even an average roll hoses you.

[Rune]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

Medusa needs careful handling. As CrosshairCollie noted, it is no fun having your character removed from play even if your teammates avenge you by knocking her out. I suppose that could be a Limitation on her Mental Paralysis. It rapidly decays when she loses consciousness, gets Stunned or is otherwise distracted.

[Certified]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

Perhaps' date=' but it's no fun for the player whose character is the one who basically gets removed from play. With a power like that, you can't even blame a lucky shot/high roll; even an average roll hoses you.[/quote']

 

This is where the guest star character comes in. After introducing super ultra man he was quickly entangled by Medusa leaving the team to handle her on their own. Okay, I admit that's more a speed bump on the road to entangling the entire team but it's generally funny.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Medusa of Psi in Practice

 

Medusa needs careful handling. As CrosshairCollie noted' date=' it is no fun having your character removed from play even if your teammates avenge you by knocking her out. I suppose that could be a Limitation on her Mental Paralysis. It rapidly decays when she loses consciousness, gets Stunned or is otherwise distracted.[/quote']

 

I find this is more an issue of pace of combat. If Character A is paralyzed on the opening phase of combat,and then sits out a 5 turn combat which takes a full game session to play out, this is an issue. However, I'd like to think the scenario is a bit better planned. If Medusa is so all-powerful, should she not take out a target every phase? That should shorten the combat greatly. If not, she should be taken down relatively quickly, again resulting in a pretty short combat. Once the combat is ended, how long it takes the character to recover isn't that big an issue.

 

The possibility a PC is incapacitated for an extended time is always a risk. A lucky shot, the villains see an opportunity to take one opponent down quickly by co-ordinating their attacks, a Vulnerability (or an area of weakness) gets hit, a big Drain or similar reduces the character to being ineffectual, a Transform changes him to stone (lasting longer than a combat, depending on the power).

 

We had an NPC hero in one game and had a stripped down character sheet that only provided his combat abilities. Someone out of the fight ran the NPC so they had something to do. But two someones out was still a possibility (although typically, the more out, the faster the combat moves and the closer to its end it was getting).