Obviousness of Telekinesis

[Christopher]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Actually it doesn't needs to be detectable by mental. That is only true for Psychokinesis (wich you take when you want to use your OMCV vs. DCV). Normal Telekinesis is as detecable as a blast. So perhaps a +3/4 to make it invisible for sight/hearing, but obvious for radio (radio perception is less common thus being of lesser worth to switch).

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Telekinesis should not need IPE to avoid the "big green hand" thing.

 

Consider a Sniper Rifle, or a gun concealed in a pocket. It does not have IPE, yet it might not be obvious who fired the gun. "Perceivable" does not mean that any observer would automatically know who or what was the source of a power - just that the power, or its effects, would be perceivable.

 

Telekinesis is already perceivable, as stated earlier in the thread, and in another way not yet mentioned - it is visible to the Mental Awareness Group, IIRC (no book in front of me so could be wrong.)

 

Think of it another way: Telekinesis is STR with the "Usable at Range" modifier, basically. Is Strength perceivable? Would Strength need IPE if you wanted to not have your muscles glow blue when you used it?

 

Just my $0.25 (adjusted for inflation, my ego.)

[Christopher]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Telekinesis is already perceivable' date=' as stated earlier in the thread, and in another way not yet mentioned - it is visible to the [i']Mental Awareness Group[/i], IIRC (no book in front of me so could be wrong.)

Like I said, only psychokinesis may be visibile to Mental Awareness, because it is considered a "Mental" Power. One of the chases where you transform some non-mental power into mental power.

 

About visibile: Think of if as a Star Trek Style Tractor beam. They are build with Telekinesis.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Yes, Strength is perceivable. How is it visible to the Sight group? You see the guy swinging his fist at someone.

[Escafarc]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

And what is Concealment but a form of IPE.

[Christopher]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Just found something interesting:

Mental Powers get IPE automatically (6E 126), even if they are attack powers.

Of course, the downside is that you make them a "full" mental power, inlcuding that Mental Defenses aply. And they can be detected by Mental Awareness. Your normal attack becomes OMCV vs DMCV (but it a +0 advantage to make it a OCV vs. DCV again).

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Yes' date=' Strength is perceivable. How is it visible to the Sight group? You see the guy swinging his fist at someone.[/quote']

 

But would you automatically know who threw a car at someone if you didn't see the person who picked up and threw the car?

 

Again, I just don't think Telekinesis is automatically perceivable in the same way blast is, and don't think you need IPE to achieve what the poster is trying for. I don't think the default for Telekinesis is a visible beam or cord or whatever that connects from the target to the attacker, but rather that if you did look around enough and in the right way you could find the source, whereas with IPE it is that much more concealed. Again with the sniper rifle - an observer next to the target would know the target got shot, by a bullet, and might know the general direction from which the bullet came. Forensics results later might give more useful information including the exact location of the shooter. But the Sniper rifle does not have IPE (it might, for a silencer, obviously) and yet is still not a 'beam from the gun to the target' that any casual observer could see.

[Christopher]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

The gun example get's even used in the rules. I read it that few people can se the bullet, but the power use itself is extremely loud (compared to a energy-blast).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

IF uber-realism is desired it is probably better to define bullets in flight with a Limited IPE vs. Sight with the defense being a minimum level of Rapid Sense on Sight. Since the gun firing the bullet will usually still have a muzzle flash (sight & sound) this doesn't prevent the target from making a Dodge* or DFC attempt (*DCV penalties vs. invisible attacks might still apply) but it does prevent a Blocking/Deflecting attempt vs. bullets unless the character has a special sense that allows them to make a targeting roll vs. an otherwise invisible target (a Danger Sense roll made by half would qualify).

 

The Green Lantern example was just that, an example. It's not the only way default TK's visibility has to be defined though.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Right. I was just saying that the OP probably doesn't really need to put much effort into visibility / IPE on telekinesis to achieve what he is describing.

[Christopher]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

I still think HERO TK is closer to the "force" in "Space Balls".

 

And perhaps they just didn't had the budget to buy their TK invisible

[Escafarc]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

I still think HERO TK is closer to the "The Schwartz" in "Space Balls".

 

And perhaps they just didn't had the budget to buy their TK invisible

Fixxed

[Christopher]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Fixxed

Sorry, german. Only saw the english version once and I my time zone it is now 10 pm. So my memory rolls may have a great malus right now.

[Tasha]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Also TK is "Telekinesis is inherently Indirect (see 6E1 335) in some ways"

 

Basically it works like indirect in that if you can see the target you can hit them even if there is a barrier between the TKer and the Target. This is only usable in a straight line, no inherent bending of the TK to hit from an unexpected direction like you can do with Indirect.

 

The OP is correct that one would have to buy Invisible power effects Sight and Hearing for the power to not be perceivable to those senses (+3/4). I would also allow the 3rd sense to be radio as it seems to be pretty logical that it could work that way.

 

BTW using TK to punch is pretty useless, one is nearly always better to buy Blast instead. If the PC needed the power to throw enough dice to actually be a factor in combat, he could leave off the Invis Power effect, and indirect with the idea that concentrating the power that much makes it interact with air molecules causing a glow as they heat up with the TK effect or something like that.

 

In a Super's game it's easy to make a TKer that is completely ineffective in combat. TK itself is an expensive effect and adding IPE to it makes even more so. It may be a good thing for fun sake to have the base effect with IPE and Fine Manipulation for fun stuff and surprise uses, but other TK effects that aren't so advantaged so they can do more dice of damage.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Also TK is "Telekinesis is inherently Indirect (see 6E1 335) in some ways"

 

Basically it works like indirect in that if you can see the target you can hit them even if there is a barrier between the TKer and the Target. This is only usable in a straight line, no inherent bending of the TK to hit from an unexpected direction like you can do with Indirect.

 

The OP is correct that one would have to buy Invisible power effects Sight and Hearing for the power to not be perceivable to those senses (+3/4). I would also allow the 3rd sense to be radio as it seems to be pretty logical that it could work that way.

 

BTW using TK to punch is pretty useless, one is nearly always better to buy Blast instead. If the PC needed the power to throw enough dice to actually be a factor in combat, he could leave off the Invis Power effect, and indirect with the idea that concentrating the power that much makes it interact with air molecules causing a glow as they heat up with the TK effect or something like that.

 

In a Super's game it's easy to make a TKer that is completely ineffective in combat. TK itself is an expensive effect and adding IPE to it makes even more so. It may be a good thing for fun sake to have the base effect with IPE and Fine Manipulation for fun stuff and surprise uses, but other TK effects that aren't so advantaged so they can do more dice of damage.

 

Bold added by me. That statement is only true if dealing with hard AP caps.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

I've always been bothered by TK getting Indirect (worse, "some aspects of indirect", which never seems to get defined) for free. Why not price it as a direct, visible power and let those wanting IPE, Indirect, etc. add these advantages, just like they do with any other power? All that providing the base power with certain built-in advantages does is muddy the waters when trying to compare costs.

 

AP makes the issue worse. If we accept, for illustration, that TK effectively has "Indirect +1/2" built in, then an AP cap (not just a hard AP cap imposed in the game, but the AP cap effectively imposed in VPP's and Multipowers) means I can have only 40 TK STR for 60 AP, even if it is "only direct". If we removed Indirect from the base power, suddenly I can have 60 STR TK, as long as I don't make in Indirect. I don't think the addition or removal of Indirect from the base power made Direct TK any more or less powerful, but it means I get more power for the same AP.

 

In a way, this is the reverse of the old Hand Attack issue, in 4e, when it cost 3 points per damage class so you could buy +20d6 Hand Attack for 60 AP. That was "fixed" in 5e by making it 5 AP per Damage Class, limited down to a lower real cost.

[Christopher]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

I think this was done for easier pricing. Some other powers have that to, Damage Reduction that has to take a Disad to affect only normal for example.

 

TK as attack:

Just buy blast with the same special effect as your telekinesis and call it "Telekinetik Punch".

That telekinsis is ineffektive at doing damage is only natural, since it is not for doing damage. It's for moving things (applying STR) on range. Even says so in one place. (Don't buy Range for STR, buy Telekinesis instead).

[Tasha]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

I think this was done for easier pricing. Some other powers have that to, Damage Reduction that has to take a Disad to affect only normal for example.

 

TK as attack:

Just buy blast with the same special effect as your telekinesis and call it "Telekinetik Punch".

That telekinsis is ineffektive at doing damage is only natural, since it is not for doing damage. It's for moving things (applying STR) on range. Even says so in one place. (Don't buy Range for STR, buy Telekinesis instead).

 

Historically TK was 5 str for 5 pts. The difference was that you could only do indirect damage with it (ie no TK punches, but you could pick up a car and beat someone with it). You could grab someone but not squeeze them. TK had the semi indirect from the earliest versions of the rules. In 4e the ability to directly damage someone was added and they decided to go with the model of Str with the Ranged Advantage for pricing.

 

I can't see how a campaign can survive without Active Point limits. How else does one keep one character from dominating combat? It just strikes me as unfair to allow someone a 90 point attack when everyone else is using 60 pt attacks. Though this is a different argument from the one about TK pricing and should probably be a different thread.

[Christopher]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

especially since TK is in fact a utility power. You don't get 90 AP Blast, you get 60 STR with Range and limited indirect. TK may be the only power some players need, because of all the things you can do with it....

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

especially since TK is in fact a utility power. You don't get 90 AP Blast' date=' you get 60 STR with Range and limited indirect. TK may be the only power some players need, because of all the things you can do with it....[/quote']

 

Exactly.

 

Several powers fall into this category that aren't so unusual at first glance, until you look at exactly how much stuff they can do.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

I can't see how a campaign can survive without Active Point limits. How else does one keep one character from dominating combat? It just strikes me as unfair to allow someone a 90 point attack when everyone else is using 60 pt attacks. Though this is a different argument from the one about TK pricing and should probably be a different thread.

 

Damage Class limits are a very popular substitute.

 

If I have a 12d6 Blast and my teammate has a 6d6 Blast, 0 END, Line of Sight Range, Area of Effect Radius (+1) will my teammate dominate combat? I suspect he will not, yet he has a 90 AP attack and I have only a 60 AP attack.

 

If one character has a 14d6 Blast (their only attack), a 7 OCV and a 4 SPD, and the other has a 12d6 Blast in a Multipower with a dozen other 60 AP attacks, a 10 OCV and a 6 SPD, which one seems more likely to dominate combat? Here the DC limit also fails to tell the tale.

 

Too often, "maximums" become "the standard everyone has" and all the characters are mechanically identical, differing only in special effects and flavour text.

[Tasha]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Damage Class limits are a very popular substitute.

 

If I have a 12d6 Blast and my teammate has a 6d6 Blast, 0 END, Line of Sight Range, Area of Effect Radius (+1) will my teammate dominate combat? I suspect he will not, yet he has a 90 AP attack and I have only a 60 AP attack.

 

If one character has a 14d6 Blast (their only attack), a 7 OCV and a 4 SPD, and the other has a 12d6 Blast in a Multipower with a dozen other 60 AP attacks, a 10 OCV and a 6 SPD, which one seems more likely to dominate combat? Here the DC limit also fails to tell the tale.

 

Too often, "maximums" become "the standard everyone has" and all the characters are mechanically identical, differing only in special effects and flavour text.

 

Your teammate with No Range Mod, 0 End , AOE will tend to dominate the fights with lots of Agents. Also, who would bother with No range mod AOE's anyways? IT seems like a power that is being over advantaged to make your point. I would work with the player to create a power that would fit within (or be close enough) the campaign guidelines. In this case a 8d6 AOE 8m, 1/2 end (70pts) is a much more flexable power it also fits into campaign and DC limits (75pts, DC 12) This assumes a OCV 8, SPD 5 character (My campaign average), I tend to allow slower characer (ie OCV 6 Spd 4) to do more damage (DC14). The point is that there is plenty of points to make a good quality power with a reasonable power limit.

 

Characters that all do DC 10 -14 straight dice (not advantaged) with differing Special effects is how the Hero System works. I don't need to have my dice to be more or less than my teammate for my Lightning bolt to feel different from his Fire blast. It's all in the way that I describe the power in use. Mechanics don't matter to the RP parts. Mechanics and limits make sure that my teammates are all built at or near the same amount of points my character was, and that their powers are built on a similar amount of points so Martial Arts girl with SPD 8 isn't doing 12d6 AP with my SPD 4 brick doing 12d6 with no advantages.

 

This makes the GM's job easier as then they can create balanced combat encounters that everyone finds challenging without one character out damaging the rest.

 

I tend to use Both DC and AP limits along with a squishy version of Rule of X to keep power costs under control.

[dmjalund]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Also' date=' who would bother with No range mod AOE's anyways?[/quote']Glass Cannons who like to fight from a distance. That's who.

[Tasha]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Glass Cannons who like to fight from a distance. That's who.

 

A hex is DCV 3. In my campaigns supers are avg OCV 8 with 2 levels so OCV 10 total. That allows 64m(ie 32 2m hexes) at OCV 4 for a 12- roll to hit the hex. If the Player really wanted a Sniper type, I would even allow some Penalty Skill levels which would push the OCV 4 range band to 128m (64 hexes) at a 12- to hit.

 

Sorry, IMHO No range mod is a real expensive way to be a sniper with AOE attacks. You are better using the points from No Range Mod and put it into damage, so you COULD use the power on targets other than Mooks and normals.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Obviousness of Telekinesis

 

Your teammate with No Range Mod' date=' 0 End , AOE will tend to dominate the fights with lots of Agents.[/quote']

 

Precisely - he would dominate some fights and my character would dominate others. Despite the fact he has 50% more AP in his attack than I do.

 

Also' date=' who would bother with No range mod AOE's anyways? IT seems like a power that is being over advantaged to make your point. I would work with the player to create a power that would fit within (or be close enough) the campaign guidelines. In this case a 8d6 AOE 8m, 1/2 end (70pts) is a much more flexable power it also fits into campaign and DC limits (75pts, DC 12) This assumes a OCV 8, SPD 5 character (My campaign average), I tend to allow slower characer (ie OCV 6 Spd 4) to do more damage (DC14). The point is that there is plenty of points to make a good quality power with a reasonable power limit.[/quote']

 

First off, your answer already clarifies that AP don't tell the tale, as you cap DC's differently and bend the rules for both depending on SPD/OCV. Second, the question was not "could I build a more efficient power", but "is the AP limit effective". You suggested higher AP's equate to combat dominance. I submitted an example that indicates they do not. If you don't like the advantages, pick some different ones. The first time this character awakens from being KO'd with 2 END on the first phase of the turn, he will regret bumping up to 1/2 END cost, won't he? Especially as he has to get closer in to be confident he will center the attack on the desired point and not catch a teammate or innocent bystander by missing by a few meters. The utility of those advantages is very much campaign and situation dependent.

 

Characters that all do DC 10 -14 straight dice (not advantaged) with differing Special effects is how the Hero System works.

 

Run a search for some of Trebuchet's discussions of their Supers game for a different viewpoint. I think their rule is "DC's + SPD cannot exceed 19", and that works pretty good for them.

 

A hex is DCV 3. In my campaigns supers are avg OCV 8 with 2 levels so OCV 10 total. That allows 64m(ie 32 2m hexes) at OCV 4 for a 12- roll to hit the hex. If the Player really wanted a Sniper type' date=' I would even allow some Penalty Skill levels which would push the OCV 4 range band to 128m (64 hexes) at a 12- to hit. [/quote']

 

OK, let's look at that. We'll use your build, since it will obviously be a better fit for your game. 8d6 AOE 8m, 1/2 end (70pts). Slap on No Range Modifier or LOS Range and it costs another 20 points. So I'll take a 4 OCV instead of an 8 (20 points saved), forego the levels (assume they are 2 pointers, so another 4 points) and no PSL's (say another 6 points). Oh look, I get the same 12- chance to hit and I saved 10 points (more if the attack was limited). So your contention that

 

Sorry' date=' IMHO No range mod is a real expensive way to be a sniper with AOE attacks. You are better using the points from No Range Mod and put it into damage, so you COULD use the power on targets other than Mooks and normals.[/quote']

 

is not accurate. I have another 10 points to put into the power with my build. Assuming, of course, that losing those other abilities does not impair my character's other powers, but I can build quite a suite of 90 AP powers which target DCV 3 into that Multipower, keeping all within your 12 DC cap.

 

Where I find problems in practice, and this may not be your case as you note you look to the character as a whole, is when we decide that the cap is 12 DC's and 75 AP, so any power that is AoE ends up with less DC's than one without AoE, but we put no restrictions on CV. So you can't have a 10d6 AoE Accurate attack (too many DC's) and a 4 OCV, but you can have a 12d6 attack and a 10 OCV, which hits as or more often, and does more damage (or can do the same damage after being Spread to hit multiple targets or boost OCV even more). RESULT: No one uses AoE because they are allowed to get a better result if they don't.