Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

[Darren Watts]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Please' date=' please, please, Darren, tell me you've got a copy of GAC backed up somewhere. I don't want to wait more years for it because of a computer crash. [/quote']

 

heh. Yes I do. I actually did just add to it recently, because my home group finally finished the sample mini-campaign I intend to put in the back, a little tribute to David Brin's "Thor Meets Captain America" which will get modified again when Steve finishes the Norse pantheon for Mythic Hero. dw

[Shiva13]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I bought both Champions Villains 1 and Champions Villains 2 in physical hardcover format. And it is still my intention to buy Champions Villains 3 in the same format. Whenever it is available.

 

But I also have serious doubts about why they put out Star Hero before CV3. Champions is THE brand. The highest recognized brand Hero Games ever had. Even more so now that there is an MMO based on that property. Interest has never been higher. Pushing products in that brand aside for something of lesser recognition value doesn't have any logic in it to me. It does not make any sense.

 

The products to support said brand should have been out and available as fast as possible to take advantage of the wider exposure that Champions has as a whole. But that is not what we as consumers have gotten. We have gotten lots of rules and compilations of pre-made powers. But very little in the way of pre-made characters and organizations out there and accessible for the Champions brand in 6th edition for players to use. Champions Villains 1 and 2 were just the bare beginning to support the brand.

 

That said, I still plan to buy a lot of Hero Games products. But I am pretty disenchanted right now.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I think the Big GenCon Release has always been a genre book, not a CU supplement, which I suspect indicates that the genre books are bigger sellers. Further, Darren has indicated the first two Villains books have been the worst 6e sellers to date. To me, that indicates "THE brand" does not have the value you place on it. Any "higher recognition value" from the "wider exposure" from the MMO has clearly not translated into "the consumers" purchasing these books. The books which have been outsold by the books containing "rules and compilations of pre-made powers".

 

I like the character and organization books better myself. Clearly, however, your and my preferences are not broadly shared, as they are not translating into higher sales figures for those books. I liked scenarios too. A lot of people on the Boards have indicated they liked the Star Hero settings. But those didn't sell well either, so they got shelved. At least some more organization books are planned for the next couple of years, and the commitment to publish CV III in hardcopy has been consistently restated. DoJ has to write books that sell to the population at large, even if those aren't my personal favorites.

 

It seems like a lot of the 6e product line to date is Champions-focused. We've had Champions, Champions Universe, Champions Beyond, a Superpowers book and the first two villains books (with the third still to come), for a total of 6 books on paper now, with one more coming. I don't believe any other genre has received nearly that amount of 6e books. Because Champions is the biggest seller (although not, it appears, character books), so it gets the most books. But it's going to get the books that sell - at least, if DoJ is making business decisions!

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

heh. I intend to put in the back' date=' a little tribute to David Brin's "Thor Meets Captain America" [/quote']

 

One of my favorite stories of all time.

[danbuter1]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Selling books that are mainly rules creates a vicious circle. If there are not enough setting supplements, there isn't a good background to place those rules into. And, generally, Villains books are necessary for GMs, but not players.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Selling books that are mainly rules creates a vicious circle. If there are not enough setting supplements' date=' there isn't a good background to place those rules into. [/quote']

 

I tend to look at it the other way. Rules don't go into a setting, the setting is there to show what can be done with the rules. Rules first, setting second has always been my motto. The fact that I have never played a published setting (just homebrew) probably colors my view on such things.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Selling books that are mainly rules creates a vicious circle. If there are not enough setting supplements' date=' there isn't a good background to place those rules into. And, generally, Villains books are necessary for GMs, but not players.[/quote']

 

That's the economics of the RPG industry, in my view. Scenarios will typically sell to one member of any given gaming group (one GM will run it and the rest will play it), so they don't sell all that well. The villain book might get multiple purchases, as there may be multiple GM's or potential GM's, but pure players won't buy it. Ahhh but EVERYONE needs a copy of the rules, right?

 

Funny thing...I remember back in high school, when scenarios were the majority of support publications, playing a lot of games where only the GM had a copy of the actual rules, and the game played just fine, with players learning the relevant rules from play. As the game rules became more complex, and every player needed a copy, rules supplements became more prevalent, and scenarios started dying away.

 

I tend to look at it the other way. Rules don't go into a setting' date=' the setting is there to show what can be done with the rules. Rules first, setting second has always been my motto. The fact that I have never played a published setting (just homebrew) probably colors my view on such things. [/quote']

 

But Hero sales depend on what Hero players as a whole want. If most play homebrew settings, settings will sell poorly. That was viewed as the issue with Star Hero supplements, wasn't it? The genre book sold great, but nothing else did. Gamers seemed to want either homebrew settings or licensed settings, not game company settings,

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

But Hero sales depend on what Hero players as a whole want. If most play homebrew settings, settings will sell poorly. That was viewed as the issue with Star Hero supplements, wasn't it? The genre book sold great, but nothing else did. Gamers seemed to want either homebrew settings or licensed settings, not game company settings,

 

It has seemed that way. Hero, I think, tends to attract homebrewers that way - the system is designed to let us do what we want, so we tend to do the same with settings. Part of the toolkit attitude I surmise.

[danbuter1]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Which ends with the company selling to a few hardcore gamers and very few new players. This is a death spiral, I believe, one which DOJ likely got caught in with the vastly larger core rulebooks. Seriously, 4e, the Big Blue Book, only had 213 pages of rules. The rest was setting.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Which ends with the company selling to a few hardcore gamers and very few new players.

 

As opposed to what, exactly? I don't see Hero, or most other RPG companies, breaking into the broader market beyond "experienced gamers" any time soon. They don't have those retail/distribution channels. Hero's not really an "entry level product".

 

Seriously' date=' 4e, the Big Blue Book, only had 213 pages of rules. The rest was setting. [/quote']

 

1e was 64 pages. We should never have gone to 80 with 2e!

 

I think 4e is better compared to the Basic Rules. 5e, and then 6e, added lot of examples, clarifications and rules for interaction between powers. Why? Because gamers kept asking questions! Much of the expansion between 5e and 5er was the old 5e FAQ. People asked, Steve answered, then Steve put it in the rules so there would be no further need to ask.

 

We've been 'round the "size" issue before. Compare the actual page count of 6e to the page count of enough books to play another system. I don't think D&D is any thinner (certainly not if we assume you need all the classes, not just the sample provided in the first round of 4e books). The Pathfinder base rulebook is pretty huge, and doesn't claim to be complete unto itself (there are at least three more official books with character classes). Larger rule sets is the way the industry has evolved.

[Shiva13]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Which ends with the company selling to a few hardcore gamers and very few new players. This is a death spiral' date=' I believe, one which DOJ likely got caught in with the vastly larger core rulebooks. Seriously, 4e, the Big Blue Book, only had 213 pages of rules. The rest was setting.[/quote']

 

It's been that way since the latter days of 4th edition, and the failed experiment that was Fuzion. The emphasis of the toolkit approach has only ever truly appealed to the hardcore. The ever expanding complexity of character generation only succeeded in driving a significant amount of the more mainstream members of the customer base away. The death spiral has been around for quite a long time.

 

As to the setting content in 4th edition. It included an adventure and a bunch of sample characters. Not much on world information. But it was enough to ignite a fire of imagination for a significant amount the audience for Champions. Those characters in particular had been synonimous with what people thought Champions was for 4 editions. They brought a life to the rule set, that by itself, has always been rather sterile.

 

This is why the Villains trilogy was so important.To bring back the ignition of that fire of imagination. To show people application, and the unique style in which Champions has been all about since the beginning.

 

Genre books are fine. They are an important part of the whole picture. However, the amount of characters displayed in those books have been pretty weak when compared to 4th edition. Which truly was the heyday of the Champions property.

 

But Champions has been the 500 pound gorilla in the room for Hero Games since the beginning. The other genres have always been a secondary consideration to that line. It is that line which has brought Hero Games its greatest success. So yes, it certainly deserves the greatest thrust of attention. It's where the money is at. The rest are mostly vanity projects in comparison.

 

Champions Villains Volume 3 was the finishing of the picture for villains period. Solo villains are the ones who definitely get the greatest level of use from superhero gamers at large. The other two books? Not so much. Villain teams get a greater use than Master Villains. Simply because of the baggage master Villains carry with them.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

DOJ has owned and managed Hero Games for 10 years, much longer than any other company that's handled the property, and published many more books. During that period many other game companies have disappeared in the face of a tough economy and shrinking client base.

 

I accept that specific decisions the company takes can be called into question. I don't accept that they don't know how to run their business.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Champions Villains Volume 3 was the finishing of the picture for villains period. Solo villains are the ones who definitely get the greatest level of use from superhero gamers at large. The other two books? Not so much. Villain teams get a greater use than Master Villains. Simply because of the baggage master Villains carry with them.

 

Really? I find solo villains less useful than villain teams, as games rarely feature solo heroes rather than hero groups. Solo villains tend to get added to, or used to form, villain groups, unless they are powerful enough to challenge a team on their own (which includes the Master Villain subcategory).

[danbuter1]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I'm far more interested in solo villains than teams. Masterminds fit in the middle. And VIPER trumps them all!

[Greywind]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

So make some up.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

So make some up.

 

I know you are joking, but that is a time-consuming proposition. The reason most of us like published write-ups is because they save time. For my part--and I suspect others would agree--I can't sit around and make up Champions in class like I did in high school, or blow off my other responsibilities to do it at home like I might have done in college.

 

Gaming time is a precious resource now. If I get a chance to run a game, I really don't want to have to think about more than Who, What, When, Where, and How as far as setting it up goes. If I have the Who and Where covered using published materials, that makes things much easier to deal with.

[Greywind]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

True, but homebrew generally fit better within a specific world. You know what you want, so you make it, rather than flip through the book and "let's see who is close enough to what I want."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

True' date=' but homebrew generally fit better within a specific world. You know what you want, so you make it, rather than flip through the book and "let's see who is close enough to what I want."[/quote']

 

What's wrong with customizing the one that's close to be a perfect fit? It's a lot easier to have 95% of the writeup done, rename it, revise the appearance (even some SFX), personality, etc. to fit perfectly than to build from scratch. Still, sales may indicate a preference for your model. I think a lot of possible 6e Villains buyers looked at the "new character to reprint" component and decided they could use the "95% there" characters in 5e or prior writeups and customize them for any relevant 6e changes. I'm curious how a book of all-new villains would sell, but I suspect we may never know.

[Martin2]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I like the pre generated villains. Not only do you have the character with a list of their powers but you also get the background and their interactions with other heroes and villains. Having that information is very useful to build scenarios around them.

 

Yes I can build a 400 point villain based around a SFX that will be a challange for the players but the background is also useful as I do not have to make it up and invent stuff that may be very similar.

 

I have converted 5e Villains to 6e (its cheaper and is convertable). I also have the thing of remembering if I kept their place of birth and background as written or have moved them to Europe / UK.

 

Champions members have become British, King Cobra is still American as he is an international villain (but he had moved to UK for a scenario) etc.

 

So with my use of the material some backgrounds have changed but mostly are the same.

 

But I also make my own villains as well.

[Balabanto]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

I know you are joking, but that is a time-consuming proposition. The reason most of us like published write-ups is because they save time. For my part--and I suspect others would agree--I can't sit around and make up Champions in class like I did in high school, or blow off my other responsibilities to do it at home like I might have done in college.

 

Gaming time is a precious resource now. If I get a chance to run a game, I really don't want to have to think about more than Who, What, When, Where, and How as far as setting it up goes. If I have the Who and Where covered using published materials, that makes things much easier to deal with.

 

This is why my products are moving towards more and more characters and becoming larger. Because that's the need I see growing on the boards from guys like you. Granted, I work sixty hours or so a week and write novels and freelance for Blackwyrm, but if what people want is more NPCs and stuff, that's the stuff you guys are going to get. I'm not in Steve Long's class as far as the amount of product I can produce in a year. I would rather produce one to to two great products with the time and energy I invest than four junky ones. Plus, making these things is NOT cheap. If you think I make a ton of money off them, forget it. I do this because I love the game and all writing practice is good writing practice.

 

In general, I agree with the assertion that we all have less time, and this also means that we have less time to think about what we'd like to purchase with our money. But in general, choosing Hero means choosing a product that you can toolkit as you need to, because the toolkittiness is already built in. I think that as designers, we have to "embrace the toolkittiness" more, and try to incorporate the same kind of toolkitty design in the plots and adventures that people publish as the actual system itself. I TRY (And I stress TRY) to do this as much as possible, but as much as Greywind is joking, I think his comment may have more validity than many of us realize.

[Greywind]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

What's wrong with customizing the one that's close to be a perfect fit? It's a lot easier to have 95% of the writeup done' date=' rename it, revise the appearance (even some SFX), personality, etc. to fit perfectly than to build from scratch. Still, sales may indicate a preference for your model. I think a lot of possible 6e Villains buyers looked at the "new character to reprint" component and decided they could use the "95% there" characters in 5e or prior writeups and customize them for any relevant 6e changes. I'm curious how a book of all-new villains would sell, but I suspect we may never know.[/quote']I don't recall saying anything was wrong with it. I've done it myself. My preference is for homebrew. I don't have to deal with shoving a square peg into a round hole. I can make a round peg to fit the hole I have.

 

I have a large percentage of 5th books, including the character books. I use them. I just prefer not to have to rely on them.

[memorax300]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

It's not so much not wanting to make my own. It's a limited amount of time followed by a desire to not really build characters from scratch. Why should I when I can take existing characters and tweak them if need be. I really wish posters would understand and respect that not everyone is like them with umlimited amounts of time and a willingness to build everything from scratch. I really hope we see CV3 before the end of 2011. I see nothing on the release schedule warrenting it being delayed. Certainly not Time Travel Hero. Sorry if that gets priority it's HG indulging in vanity projects and ignoring what we the fans want. And Mythic Hero really. With all the flak your getting with the delay of CV3 you push it even further for a book that may or may not do as well or is needed as CV3. As for them no knowing how to run their business. Well I would not go so far yet. Except they have me wondering if they really know what the fanbase wants. With the MMO I expected a lot more empahsis on Champions stuff. I would not expect them to neglect everything else of course yet some of their decisions seem to have me wondering if their is a huge disconnect between HG and the fanabse. I could understand seeing CV3 psuhed further along if say they would focus on HS Vehicle book or Millienium City which imo are guarenteed sellers. While MH and TTH may sell well imo not as well as the first two books I mentioned. Not to mention they still have not resolved their printer issues. Almost everything I want to get is not in print and for the moment I cannot get through my LGS.

[Greywind]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

From what we've been told MONEY seems to be the restrictive factor on printing the book.

[Dreamstreamer]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

Almost everything I want to get is not in print and for the moment I cannot get through my LGS.

 

What are you looking for, specifically? Maybe the boards can help you find what you need. I just bought Star Hero, the Equipment Guide, and the Grimoire from frpgames.com, mainly because coolstuffinc.com didn't have the Equipment Guide available (said that it was still a pre-order).

[danbuter1]

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

 

How about Vol 1 of the rules? It's been out of print for a while, now.