Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

when was the last time Chewie wore pants? O_o

 

Let the Wookie win.

[dmjalund]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

WWII brought us a peace for currently 56 Years.

1945: WWII Ended

1950-1953: Korean War

1961-1975: Vietnam War

then there is a big gap - the next war America takes active part in is the Serbian War: 1992-1995

 

maybe the secret to a long peace is to LOSE a war.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Except it's not a fact. Humanity has never had a war that has significantly reduced population over more than minor regions - and even then' date=' only for very short periods (we're talking a few years, not a generation). Wars, in fact, tend to have little or no effect on population density - as an example, from 1939-1945, during the period of the most destructive war we've ever had, world population [b']increased[/b] by about 100 million. Even countries like France and Germany which were ground zero for the fighting, returned to, and then surpassed their pre-war populations in the space of 1 year (France) and 3 years (Germany) after the war.

 

Other factors - economics, famine, disease all have far more profound effects on human population density than war has ever had.

 

The idea that war is good for technology is also largely myth: yes, short wars can have a stimulating effect - as long as they have the resources of prior prolonged peace to draw on. In the longer term, though, wars tend to degrade the resources needed for development. Sun Tzu stated "There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare" and it looks like he was right. Africa is a perfect example of a a continent riven by war: there isn't a country there that hasn't had at least one war in the last couple of generations and many of them have been more at least continuously at war for several generations now. Not surprisingly, countries like South Africa which had the smallest wars, are the most advanced, while places like DR Congo which have known almost nothing but war for decades, produce no advancement.

 

In contrast, our current world, born out of an unprecedented burst of technological advancement, was also born out of prolonged periods of peace.

 

cheers, Mark

 

The USSR, OTOH, declined about 10 percent in population between 1940 and 1946, and took almost a decade to get back to pre-war levels. But then, I guess you could say they're an extreme case.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

1945: WWII Ended

1950-1953: Korean War

1961-1975: Vietnam War

then there is a big gap - the next war America takes active part in is the Serbian War: 1992-1995

 

Plus the Cold War, natch, which may not have seen a lot of open fighting but lives were lost and there was plenty of war-by-proxy - a buttload of insurrections, destabilizations, territorial disputes, skirmishes, provocations, intrusions, uprisings, interventions, confrontations, rebellions and out-and-out incidents.

 

And for post-1945 non-Americans, there were (in total lack of order):

 

The four wars between India and Pakistan( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India-Pakistan_Wars );

The Sino-Indian War ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War );

The Indonesian Invasion of East Timor ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_invasion_of_East_Timor );

The closing stages of the Chinese Civil War ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War );

China's "incorporation" of Tibet ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_%281950%29 );

The Indonesian-Malaysian Confrontation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konfrontasi );

The Middle East and Africa in general (w-a-y too many to mention);

A bunch of other stuff I haven't even thought of just now.

 

56 years of peace? Depends where you stand.

[lemming]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Plus the Cold War, natch, which may not have seen a lot of open fighting but lives were lost and there was plenty of war-by-proxy - a buttload of insurrections, destabilizations, territorial disputes, skirmishes, provocations, intrusions, uprisings, interventions, confrontations, rebellions and out-and-out incidents.

There were a few things the US got actively involved in, but the big one I note, the First gulf war was a year ahead of the Serbian one.

And while it was pretty minor, we did invade Grenada in 1983.

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Also note that when you are engaged in a "total" war (as opposed to a sideshow conflict of the type we are in now that does not require a nation's entire resources) everything becomes tertiary compared to weapons. You put all your scientific and technological research efforts into building better ways to kill people in large quantities. Everything you do needs to have a military application or it just doesn't get funded.

 

It's only in peacetime that technology that goes into improving human life as opposed to terminating it becomes viable for research. We didn't have the technological explosion of the 1990s, with all its advancement in information, entertainment, and other consumer technologies, until the Cold War ended. Sure we put a man on the moon during the Cold War, but that was largely to prove that we had the technology to hurl unstoppable waves of atomic death at our enemies. It took a cooling down of the conflict with the Soviets before consumer-driven technological advancement could take place.

 

In general, I agree. But your position is too black and white for me. I would note that the greatest world-changing 'civilian' innovation to take the world by storm in the last twenty years is the internet - which was a pentagon project in the beginning. The first working radar was also a military project. And the jet engine. Its also been at the fore of communications satellites, etc. There's more crossover between military and civilian innovation than is immediately apparent because the military's information, logistical, and technical needs often have application outside the military. Which is not to say that the military isn't focused on killing people and breaking things, or that war is good for technological advancement, or that most non-weapons advances the military brings happen during war. Most of these are peace time innovations as the military prepares for war - not something it develops while fighting.

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

There were a few things the US got actively involved in, but the big one I note, the First gulf war was a year ahead of the Serbian one.

And while it was pretty minor, we did invade Grenada in 1983.

 

Let us not forget Panama.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

[...] I get the feeling some of these doomsday experts are wanting the next big war to happen...

They don't. It is just a very likely scenario, given how simple humans act.

 

The SWU is at doomed colony/without a future level? News to me.

What is the place to raise a familiy:

A cramped, doomed colony on a planet with acid rain and no breathable atmosphere

or

Naboo/Alderaan?

 

Again habitable does not mean "a good place to live". And wars have been for over very habitable areas (like isles) that could be used strattegically, without either side ever settling there afterwards (to ensure the peace).

Heck, US and british Empire almost fought a war over a pig!

 

Other factors - economics' date=' famine, disease all have far more profound effects on human population density than war has ever had.[/quote']

As other pointed out, those blody war's aren't good for economics and the health of the population either. Especially not after firebombing cities and charred earth policies.

 

Even countries like France and Germany which were ground zero for the fighting' date=' returned to, and then surpassed their [b']pre-war[/b] populations in the space of 1 year (France) and 3 years (Germany) after the war.

 

The USSR' date=' OTOH, declined about 10 percent in population between 1940 and 1946, and took almost a decade to get back to [b']pre-war[/b] levels. But then, I guess you could say they're an extreme case.

Bold added by me. Those figures are nice, but have a mayor flaw:

This is the time to cancel out the losses. What you need to compare it to, is how how the population would have been without the war. Only there you see the real price of war in human lives.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Given what was going on the Soviet Union up into the 1930s, one really does wonder how different the population size would have been without ww2 - and in which direction. :|

[Ragitsu]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

They don't. It is just a very likely scenario' date=' given how simple humans act.[/quote']

 

I'm sure some do, and relish the opportunity to egg others on into it.

 

 

What is the place to raise a familiy:

A cramped, doomed colony on a planet with acid rain and no breathable atmosphere

or

Naboo/Alderaan?

 

Again habitable does not mean "a good place to live". And wars have been for over very habitable areas (like isles) that could be used strattegically, without either side ever settling there afterwards (to ensure the peace).

 

That there are bad places to live in the SWU still does not make it generally a doomed colony/without a future.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

That there are bad places to live in the SWU still does not make it generally a doomed colony/without a future.

That still doesn't changes that part of human nature: People in miserable, futureless environment will do almost anything to better their lot. Things can easily go towards Nationalism, Rasism, Expansionism or other forms of Fanatism from there. Wich in turn will lead to conflict, wich in turn will lead to war/violence.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

That still doesn't changes that part of human nature: People in miserable' date=' futureless environment will do almost anything to better their lot. Things can easily go towards Nationalism, Rasism, Expansionism or other forms of Fanatism from there. Wich in turn will lead to conflict, wich in turn will lead to war/violence.[/quote']

 

Discussion on SWU humans not being entirely like our humans aside (not to mention the many sapient/sentient species), I was speaking of the SWU's current state and not hypothetical scenarios.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I was speaking of the SWU's current state and not hypothetical scenarios.

I doubt you have a complete knowledge of the status of the star wars universe at any given time.

Also I am not certain what "current" state means. There are at least 6 different states in the double trillogy, plus the varius states in the games playing in the old republic, plus the expanded universe with one "current state" per book published.

[Clonus]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

That still doesn't changes that part of human nature: People in miserable' date=' futureless environment will do almost anything to better their lot. Things can easily go towards Nationalism, Rasism, Expansionism or other forms of Fanatism from there. Wich in turn will lead to conflict, wich in turn will lead to war/violence.[/quote']

 

Dude, seriously, I don't know what you are talking about.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I think he's just trying to say that there will always be reasons to go to war because there will always be an unequal distribution of resources. Some people have really nice planets, and some people don't, therefore....

[Ragitsu]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I doubt you have a complete knowledge of the status of the star wars universe at any given time.

Also I am not certain what "current" state means. There are at least 6 different states in the double trillogy, plus the varius states in the games playing in the old republic, plus the expanded universe with one "current state" per book published.

 

The SWU, in general, is not "grimdark" as one of it's selling points. Yes, there is war, but it's not...how do I put this...as fatalistic, as, say, Warhammer 40,000 or Battlestar Galactica.

 

It's too fantasy/science-awesome/space opera/pulp for that.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Dude' date=' seriously, I don't know what you are talking about.[/quote']

Your are rich and wealthy enough to afford regulary food, shelter and internet. It's no wonder you can't follows those human behavior patterns, because you where never near those. I too live in a wealthy country with a good social network for those unfortunate who do not have a job. But I also learned how easy it is to fall for such simple concepts like fanatism, when you think it will improve your live or even just distract you from it and get you contact to people.

 

Peoples that start or fight in wars aren't some seperate species or raving lunatics. They are human really similar to you, me and everyone else participating here. The only difference is that they had a lot less fortunate place of birth, maybe they even have to strugle to even have a next day.

Germany before hitler wasn't composed of morrons, but normal thinking individuals pretty similar to most other country - who just had a economic crisis, useless government and lost war behind them. That was all hitler needed to create Nazi-Germany out of people that were as normal and rational as you and me.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

The SWU, in general, is not "grimdark" as one of it's selling points. Yes, there is war, but it's not...how do I put this...as fatalistic, as, say, Warhammer 40,000 or Battlestar Galactica.

 

It's too fantasy/science-awesome/space opera/pulp for that.

Only the parts lucas showed us.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Only the parts lucas showed us.

 

As in, the creator of the SWU? Yup...that'd be him.

 

There's an established setting, and then there's what's done with it after creation. If you're dealing with the latter, then just about any viewpoint could be brought up as what the setting is.

[Clonus]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Your are rich and wealthy enough to afford regulary food' date=' shelter and internet. It's no wonder you can't follows those human behavior patterns.[/quote']

 

Those human behaviours I understand. What I don't understand is what you are talking about in regard to the Star Wars universe.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Those human behaviours I understand. What I don't understand is what you are talking about in regard to the Star Wars universe.

The same humans patterns apply there. I mean, you are aware that the empire is as close to Nazi Germany as you could have posibilly gotten without giving them red armbands?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Well, they do call them storm troopers, and some of the Imperial pomp and circumstance does look like something straight out of a Riefenstahl film. And the Sith coming to power is based on deception and a swift purge of internal political enemies(the Jedi order and some politicians as well). The Empire is not averse to committing atrocities, either. But I think that's about as far as a valid comparison should go. Otherwise it gets a little ridiculous.

[lemming]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Let us not forget Panama.

Yep. And there were a few other items that could be construed either way.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Well' date=' they do call them storm troopers, and some of the Imperial pomp and circumstance does look like something straight out of a Riefenstahl film. And the Sith coming to power is based on deception and a swift purge of internal political enemies(the Jedi order and some politicians as well). The Empire is not averse to committing atrocities, either. But I think that's about as far as a valid comparison should go. Otherwise it gets a little ridiculous.[/quote']

You forgot:

Strong Black color theme

Conquering peacfull, defenseless neighbours

Enslaving Aliens

Torture

Use of superweapons (genocide)

Transformation of the Republic into the Empire - while being applauded by the masses

And that palpatine "disbanded the republic senate" in EP 4 - exactly like hitler disbanded the senate of the weimar republic (after having all the power anyway).

 

Heck, the more I think of it the more I think Lucas made it so clear as you can make it clear without spelling it out loud.

[novi]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

somewhat more robust united nations

 

Hmm... can't unthink this idea now. I rather like it; it fits the facts we have and explains thing in the least complex way possible. And I could believe that the seeming technological plateau of the universe is the point where single planets run out of R&D potential. Well, to use a Civilization the game reference, where the research times get ridiculous for the resources of a single planet.