feralucce Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? 1) are we really talking about this? Lol... I believe a quote from mall rats fits. "how did I go from the verge of hot Floridian sex to man of steel coital debates with you on the food court?" And 2) I disagree with the war hypothesis. War is good for civilization as a whole. During the time of the republic, the republic has won every confrontation. Wars drive invention and technological innovation. While the loser is typically reduced to rubble. Most of out technical improvements can be traced back to war time. Since war (and porn) drive it, the tech level should increase, not the opposite. And we KNOW the republic has a thriving porn industry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? War is good for civilization as a whole. I am sure the dead would agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralucce Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Ironically enough, the dead aren't part of civilization any more. And i am talking on a technological level, not sociologically. Industrial and technological advance thrive in an environment permeated by war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? And i am talking on a technological level' date=' not sociologically. Industrial and technological advance thrive in an environment permeated by war.[/quote'] In some regards. In others, technological advancement can stagnate as a result of lacking resources/inventors and scientists taken up elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralucce Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Very true. But unlike a single country, the republic was a group of governements that willingly participated. In spite of the republic being at the forefront of every story, according to most source materials, the scientific and technological advances were typically pioneered within a system or individual civilization as opposed to a galactic effeort. Just using the last 20 years as an example... Look at entertainment technology. It has only REALLY taken off in the last little bit of our species time frame. The economic drive to develop new tech and entertainment pushes it forward. The republic was a "time of great prosperity"... I.e. Lots of money... Just on that level, the technology would have kept pushing forward. The republic had the four wars that are chronicled as canon. Military tech would have kept pushing forward... Either in the republic or outside it. The greatest technology, generally wins the day. Technological advances only remain on one side for so long before the idea, and therefore the method permeates the opposition. Therefore, without technological innovation, the war machine is halted. Since we have been really only shown the machinery of their war machine, weapons, defenses, etc., and it is not moving forward, it can be concluded that Lucas knows how to tell a decent story, but did not take many history courses. That being said, I enjoy the films... I just wish he'd give us the films we grew up with... As a film maker... They are done George, let it be! Lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z_00xyZeXI&feature=youtube_gdata_player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Saying that about computers doesn't seem to work. And humans' date=' being who they are, are always looking for better ways to kill each other. That's why we're not still going to war with broadswords, lances and longbows.[/quote'] We do in Fantasy Worlds. For thousands of years. Star Wars is a fantasy. Get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? We do in Fantasy Worlds. For thousands of years. Star Wars is a fantasy. Get over it. I agree that Star Wars is fantasy (at least, significantly so), but there's plenty of room for interpretation within other genres. The technological stagnation does tend to work against certain ones, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Luke marries and has a son. When she (!?!) got killed' date=' he went very dark, but managed to recover.[/quote'] Emphasis added. Say whut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? And this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? We do in Fantasy Worlds. For thousands of years. Star Wars is a fantasy. Get over it. I repeat "Saying that it's fantasy doesn't mean anything". Science fiction doesn't mean "makes sense". Fantasy doesn't mean "doesn't make sense". There are fantasy novels where technology advances at roughly the same rate that it did on Earth, plus y'now, magic. There are fantasy novels where it advances much more slowly because because all of the big brains get diverted into fields where nobody who doesn't have deep understanding of how magic theory and practice works, can make use of it. There are fantasy novels where vast geography altering catastrophes regularly wipe out civilisation and turn back the clock. But there are also science fiction novels like Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, where the empire had made no significant technological advances between the time of it's fall, and The Currents of Space. Only with the fall of the Galactic Empire did they start to make technological advances again. There are series like H. Beam Piper's Federation universe where the Federation collapses and the technological clock actually gets turned back temporarilty. Science fiction doesn't always assume that the course of technology is constantly onward and upward. And in the case of the Star Wars universe, they appear to just coming out of a gigantic stretch of time in which nobody even had a need for a standing army or new weapons systems because the Jedi were there solving all the interstellar problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? War is good for civilization as a whole. I am sure the dead would agree. Actually people dying is good for peace. It serves both as a deterent from going to war again (at least for one or two generations), lowers the population pressure and improves the Resoures/People ratio. The two main reasons for war are not enough space or not enough resources. Those "other reason" like fanatism may be the "official" reason, but in reality they are spawned by popolation pressure or not enough resources (for all thsoe peoples). I repeat "Saying that it's fantasy doesn't mean anything". Science fiction doesn't mean "makes sense". Fantasy doesn't mean "doesn't make sense". But we try to let it make sense (the entire conversation is a try). We would never even try that to other fantasy, would we? There are fantasy novels where technology advances at roughly the same rate that it did on Earth' date=' plus y'now, magic. There are fantasy novels where it advances much more slowly because because all of the big brains get diverted into fields where nobody who doesn't have deep understanding of how magic theory and practice works, can make use of it.[/quote'] Then why is nobody saying "by now the should have developed Flames Swords/Magical Airships"? Why do we accept that a fantasy setting has only techlevel X and still only has techlevel X after thousands of years*, but don't accept the same for Star Wars? *Remember that the main reason for the halt of progression in our timeline was the church, fearing advances (dark ages). The Tolans from Star Gate SG-1 where just normal humans "who skipped the dark age". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Emphasis added. Say whut? The wife - sorry if I was unclear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralucce Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? That argument is off...IMHO. There are humans all over the place in the sw universe... Saying that it stagnated because the Jedi fought all the battles, eliminates the human condition... We are driven to create and understand, pushing a need for tech innovation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? That argument is off...IMHO. There are humans all over the place in the sw universe... Saying that it stagnated because the Jedi fought all the battles, eliminates the human condition... We are driven to create and understand, pushing a need for tech innovation. Then why does Science never have a fixed budget under any Government, but Military, Civics, Infrastructure, Social security and everthing else has? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralucce Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? I will ask you what does budget have to do with curiosity? my point was that human curiosity will continue to push science and tech forward, if only in the pursuit of porn, regardless of budgetary constraints. The answer to your question, however is relatively simple. Scientist: I am researching item x. I need funding. Gvmt budget man: now much will it cost? Scientist: I don't know. Man: why not. Scientist: because we Know where to start, but not what it will take. Man: how can you not know that? Scientist: because it is kind of what experimental means sir. We start with what we know, and well...erm... Experiment. Budgets are approved based on known quantities by people that cannot grasp the concept of "we don't kow because mankind hasn't gained that knowledge yet." Though, I disagree that there is not steady funding for scientific discovery. Maybe not in the USA, but CERN's large adorn collider is an example continuing funding for pure discovery and a shining example of "we don't know what we'll find because we don't even know what we don't know." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? That argument is off...IMHO. There are humans all over the place in the sw universe... Saying that it stagnated because the Jedi fought all the battles, eliminates the human condition... We are driven to create and understand, pushing a need for tech innovation. Not Necessarily. If a society gets to the point where it's comfortable, that drive to innovate and push forward just isn't there. People innovate when they have a need. Perhaps at the time of ep 1-3 society has reached equilibrium, people as a whole on the civilized core planets have a decent lifestyle. They don't have much of a need to change stuff. Of course Palpatine wants to run the whole thing so he finds people to invent droid warriors, and puts the Trade Federation up to starting a war with the Republic. He also nudges some Jedi into looking into cloning soldiers just in case the Republic may ever need and "instant armed services" that are completly loyal (of course with the trigger to turn on the jedi if a certain phrase is spoken AKA Order 66). TSo there was innovation, it was just channeled into things that would serve Palpatine in the long run ie The DeathStar Battlestation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Then why does Science never have a fixed budget under any Government' date=' but Military, Civics, Infrastructure, Social security and everthing else has?[/quote'] Science almost always has a fixed budget. Bean Counters don't understand creative types, and tend to be tight with money. If Science had unlimited budgets, NASA's many projects would have better funding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? my point was that human curiosity will continue to push science and tech forward' date=' if only in the pursuit of porn, regardless of budgetary constraints.[/quote'] A few pioneers: Yes, they drive us forward. Joe-average: Is content to not even know how his telephone works, beyond "pick up phone, dail number". Half of them are reluctant to even understand things that are right in front of them and influence them daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralucce Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? But that is the point... Humans will keep pushing tech forward... Joe average may not, but he's not who we are talking about... http://improbable.com/news/2002/may/troy-new-suit.html This guy worked on this project his entire life because he wanted to understand and get close to bears. My point was with the excessive presence of humans, it would not have stagnated... Just my two cents worth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Very true. But unlike a single country, the republic was a group of governements that willingly participated. In spite of the republic being at the forefront of every story, according to most source materials, the scientific and technological advances were typically pioneered within a system or individual civilization as opposed to a galactic effeort. Just using the last 20 years as an example... Look at entertainment technology. It has only REALLY taken off in the last little bit of our species time frame. The economic drive to develop new tech and entertainment pushes it forward. The republic was a "time of great prosperity"... I.e. Lots of money... Just on that level, the technology would have kept pushing forward. The republic had the four wars that are chronicled as canon. Military tech would have kept pushing forward... Either in the republic or outside it. The greatest technology, generally wins the day. Technological advances only remain on one side for so long before the idea, and therefore the method permeates the opposition. Therefore, without technological innovation, the war machine is halted. Since we have been really only shown the machinery of their war machine, weapons, defenses, etc., and it is not moving forward, it can be concluded that Lucas knows how to tell a decent story, but did not take many history courses. Wars don't always push Technology forward. Ones that are especially destructive can cause a civilization to fall back technology wise. It happened to the Romans after the barbarians destroyed the empire. From what we have seen in KOTOR, the first Sith Wars were VERY destructive to both sides. The Sith lost nearly everything, and the Republic wasn't much better off. The Republic did pretty well during the Mandalorian Wars (KOTOR takes place after that war). The new MMO "The Old Republic" takes place during or after the second Sith War. The Sith trashed many Republic planets, and nearly all of the Jedi Stronghold worlds. The Jedi lost a ton of tech during that. It may also be that the Republic will also lose a ton of tech by losing the facilities and the people who make it. It would be like losing all of the Tech centers in the world (Taiwan, Japan, China, The Silicon Valley, Austin Texas etc). If we lost all of the people and the knowledge of how to make Chip foundries, how long would it take us to rediscover all of the tech it takes to make an iPhone or a Modern Computer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? If we lost all of the people and the knowledge of how to make Chip foundries' date=' how long would it take us to rediscover all of the tech it takes to make an iPhone or a Modern Computer?[/quote'] The "we need the knowledge to make the tools, we to make to tools, that we need to make the product" problem. And even if one technology center is never attacked, a lot of resources will go to rebuilding the worlds ravaged by the war. Less for science. Maybe even knowledge get's lost in the sheer masses of data when nobody remembers it is there (one or two generations). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Science almost always has a fixed budget. Bean Counters don't understand creative types' date=' and tend to be tight with money. If Science had unlimited budgets, NASA's many projects would have better funding.[/quote'] Course, things get circular in that way, as you cant have unlimited budgets because your money is limited. Course, science has become what gets cut in financial trouble because their budget is so undefinable. An unfortunate reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? Makes me wonder how the Republic could even have been founded' date=' how star travel could have developed, and what led them to that point -- there was at some time substantial innovation, and then suddenly virtually all innovation ceased for centuries. How? Why? What is everyone so afraid of?[/quote'] I've been pondering this a bit. It may not be fear so much as pragmatism. Even with hyperdrive and the holonet the sheer scale of the republic is awesome. To keep even most of its world's on a working, interconnected technological infrastructure would be a near-impossible feat. Not to mention the time, resources, planning, and forethought required to upgrade critical systems. And yet, despite similar aesthetics, the technology is better in the new republic era than at the height of the old republic, which was better than it was during the Sith wars. It may be that the republic has, due to considerations of scale, adopted technological creep rather than sprint so as not to bankrupt itself or create a schism of civilizations. What is really perplexing though is... why hasn't fashion changed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? We do in Fantasy Worlds. For thousands of years. Star Wars is a fantasy. Get over it. Geeks must puff up their chest feathers and debate theoretical play-pretend minutiae. If they don't they do not accrue geek cred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation? I just noticed something funny/odd about the technological level in EP 1: The Gungans are described as "Primitive Lifeforms". The ewoks were primitive, that is for certain. But the gungans had: Energy production, force fields, transparent superdense materials (used in their domes and submarines), they build ships that could go straight throug the watterery core of naboo - after being gnawed on by a big fish. Their throwing weapons were actually hand-held energy bombs. And they were regarded as primitive. But maybe that definition is based mostly on the question: Can they or can they not build Hyperdrives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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