Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

[Badger]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

IF we treat the movies as 'war stories' told later, then we can make a lot of good excuses (no sarcasm, really) why the battles seem undersized: G. Lucas didn't have the budget to do it right, he had bad source material, he had an axe to grind, it was period propaganda, he was a unreliable narrator, etc.

As I see it...

1. The Alliance launches a series of raids all over the Empire, in order to get the Imperial Fleet to scatter to deal with them. Imperial Fleet acts like this worked, to set the trap.

2. The Alliance then throws everything it can reasonably get at the Endor system with the goal of destroying the inoperative Death Star and killing the Emperor, hoping to throw the Empire into chaos. But, as we saw, the Death Star II was partially operational and a big chunk of the Imperial Fleet blocking the Alliance Navy's escape.

3. And, as we saw in the movie, it all falls apart. With the Emperor's death and the Death Star's destuction, chaos is caused resulting in a major Alliance victory.

4. Now, a long time later, GLucas films these critical battles. But he doesn't have enough funds... do you know how much it costs to lease a Imperial Star Destroyer? He was lucky to be able to afford the five shown! So, he makes the battle smaller than it was. Think of the movie "Battle of Britain", which leased out the only 5 flyable Hawker Hurricanes left in the world! And used Spanish built aircraft for the Germans. And so on. Historian geeks point out the errors ("Those are model VIIc T.I.E. fighters, which weren't available until 7 years after this battle! The Rebel Alliance used Incom T-65's, sure, but not at the Battle of Yavin! Everyone knows that Darth Vader was really left handed!")

 

Now that I've given my impression of the famous Chinese philosopher, Ahn Doo Long, I'll shut up.

 

I'm going with propaganda for Battle of Endor.

 

Grandpa Freedom Fighter: Yeah, kids *wheeze* I remember back in my day, we had the Battle of Endor. We were such bad@$$es....

 

Kid: Gwanpa you say bad word

 

Gandpa: Quiet, you want to hear the story or not........well, you hear it for 400th time and like it! Anyway *wheeze* we took on an entire army of Stormtroopers down on that moon and all Solo had was a squad of us and a tribe of these critters with spears.

 

Kids: Come on gwanpa, you cant beat an army of Stormtroopers with cwitters with spears.

 

Grandpa: You sassing me! Of course we did, and we hiked 10 miles overnight to do it!

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

When it comes to canon' date=' I usually tend to go with what came first, unless there is overwhelming word by the creator that contradicts otherwise.[/quote']

Isn't the entire point of defining what is "Canon" and what is not, to have a discussion base that is not to clouded by "personal points of view"?

So saying "I define what is canon", means you don't care about canon at all.

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Isn't the entire point of defining what is "Canon" and what is not, to have a discussion base that is not to clouded by "personal points of view"?

So saying "I define what is canon", means you don't care about canon at all.

 

Lucas has said there are two parallel universes - his universe (G-Canon) and the one fans expanded in the licensed materials (C-Canon).

 

His canon consists of the six live action films, the clone wars his production notes (most of which we never see unless they were in a script). He also includes the clone wars movie and the clone wars television show (2008), but treats them as having lesser authority - ergo, if they disagree with the live action films the live action films when. Hence, he says they are a subset of G-Canon called T-Canon.

 

The expanded (parallel) universe canon (C-Canon) consists almost of all of the novels, video games, and the comics that came after he realized the older licensed materials contradicted themselves and his movies in big ways and decided to hire people to sort it out and manage that for him. As a result, some of the older stuff is relegated to a subset of C-Canon that I don't recall the designation for.

 

He basically respects the EU creators are enthusiastic innovators and wants them to have a certain amount of leeway - but doesn't want that to impact his work. He also says doesn't read any of the EU on purpose, but has allowed screenwriters to pull in a few popular elements in the prequels and TV shows. He also had them work an an encyclopedia so he can be sure he doesn't duplicate names, etc.

 

So, basically, for WORD OF GEORGE canon you are looking at the six live action films, his production notes, and the clone wars stuff.

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Mustering the resources required to build an artificial object about the size of Phobos' date=' is one reason why the Empire needs grandiose scale. As in fact is the Empire having sufficient resources that it can afford to make a rich, advanced, and well populated planet go explodey as a demonstration of force even though it was undefended and posed no military threat. If the Empire was only a thousand systems, most of them not nearly so populous, then it would have just taken a big bite out of it's own tax base[/quote']

 

That doesn't mean TENS OF THOUSANDS of worlds are needed. A thousand worlds is still a shocking scale to be working with.

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Also,

 

The opening crawl from Episode III...

 

"War! The Republic is crumbling under attacks by the ruthless Sith Lord, Count Dooku. There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere...."

 

SNIP!

 

Heroes on both sides? Really? But you just told me one side is EVIL!

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Also,

 

The opening crawl from Episode III...

 

"War! The Republic is crumbling under attacks by the ruthless Sith Lord, Count Dooku. There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere...."

 

SNIP!

 

Heroes on both sides? Really? But you just told me one side is EVIL!

War Heroes (what I think he meant) are people who archive Victories.

Heroes are usually not War Heroes, but might have been in an earlier part of their life.

[Clonus]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

That doesn't mean TENS OF THOUSANDS of worlds are needed. A thousand worlds is still a shocking scale to be working with.

 

Not when you consider how many of them are going to be Bespin and Tatooine.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Not when you consider how many of them are going to be Bespin and Tatooine.

Wich where both to small/uninteresting to take over/send troops to, before the heroes got there.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

(But yeah' date=' I'm prepared to accept that when Kenobi said "generations" he meant "graduating classes of new Jedi" or something.)[/quote']

 

I prefer to say that there were Jedi before the founding of the Republic. So, 'for a thousand generations the Jedi were the guardians of peace' and 'the Republic has ruled for a thousand years' are both true statements.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I'm going with propaganda for Battle of Endor.

 

Grandpa Freedom Fighter: Yeah, kids *wheeze* I remember back in my day, we had the Battle of Endor. We were such bad@$$es....

 

Kid: Gwanpa you say bad word

 

Gandpa: Quiet, you want to hear the story or not........well, you hear it for 400th time and like it! Anyway *wheeze* we took on an entire army of Stormtroopers down on that moon and all Solo had was a squad of us and a tribe of these critters with spears.

 

Kids: Come on gwanpa, you cant beat an army of Stormtroopers with cwitters with spears.

 

Grandpa: You sassing me! Of course we did, and we hiked 10 miles overnight to do it!

 

"In a blizzard! Uphill! Both ways!"

[Mister E]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

[Off-Topic]:

 

Lucas has said there are two parallel universes - his universe (G-Canon) and the one fans expanded in the licensed materials (C-Canon).

 

His canon consists of the six live action films, the clone wars his production notes (most of which we never see unless they were in a script). He also includes the clone wars movie and the clone wars television show (2008), but treats them as having lesser authority - ergo, if they disagree with the live action films the live action films when. Hence, he says they are a subset of G-Canon called T-Canon.

 

The expanded (parallel) universe canon (C-Canon) consists almost of all of the novels, video games, and the comics that came after he realized the older licensed materials contradicted themselves and his movies in big ways and decided to hire people to sort it out and manage that for him. As a result, some of the older stuff is relegated to a subset of C-Canon that I don't recall the designation for.

 

He basically respects the EU creators are enthusiastic innovators and wants them to have a certain amount of leeway - but doesn't want that to impact his work. He also says doesn't read any of the EU on purpose, but has allowed screenwriters to pull in a few popular elements in the prequels and TV shows. He also had them work an an encyclopedia so he can be sure he doesn't duplicate names, etc.

 

So, basically, for WORD OF GEORGE canon you are looking at the six live action films, his production notes, and the clone wars stuff.

 

Droids pwn Jedis. Proof:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QACHXBqvHVk

 

Clearly R2 won The Star Wars by defeating Yoda in the second (& third) movie... which (together) are really just a retelling of the first movie.

 

The prequels are nothing.

 

"Away with your weapons. I mean you no harm."

~ Yoda is a liar & a coward. As evil as they come, he intends to orchestrate Luke's patricide... from a safe distance... using precognition of all things.

"Beep-bweep! Electro-gurgle bop!"

~ R2-D2 sees through the twisted Yoda [worse than the empiror, even] like Daredevil reads print on a newspaper.

 

It is too bad R2's vocabulary is so many orders of magnitude above Luke's ability to comprehend. It is even more sad how all the organic life forms in the galaxy pretend to have conversations with droids.

"Mine! Or I will help you not."

~translation... The camp-lamp is Luke's soul. Yoda makes it his play thing. Duress, if ever...

 

As Luke loses his senses, R2 springs into action. It is the final showdown.

 

Yoda cuts loose with his magical gimer-stick, but it is as nothing to R2-D2. The revelation crushes Yoda. Yoda reels as his endless wants & desires consume him from the inside. R2 take this opportunity to transfer Luke's soul from the camp-lamp back into Luke. Yoda shrinks.

 

The battle is over. Luke declares "R2" the (self-evident) winner.

 

 

~ Mister (E-Canon)

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Not when you consider how many of them are going to be Bespin and Tatooine.

 

1) We don't know if bespin and tatooine are republic member worlds or are just fringer outposts.

2) Even if they are members, we have no basis to determine how prevalent such worlds are so you have no basis to make such an argument from.

2) And we're still talking about inhabited member worlds.

 

Each of those systems will have other moons and planets to exploit economically, let alone nearby systems that are uninhabited that interstellar corps may be exploiting for resources.

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

War Heroes (what I think he meant) are people who archive Victories.

Heroes are usually not War Heroes, but might have been in an earlier part of their life.

 

I agree in terms of formal usage. But Lucas sold out and produced black and white kiddie films with morality to match. In that context it doesn't make as much sense.

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I prefer to say that there were Jedi before the founding of the Republic. So' date=' 'for a thousand generations the Jedi were the guardians of peace' and 'the Republic has ruled for a thousand years' are both true statements.[/quote']

 

I don't think its necessary to take Kenobi literally. I think its sufficient to understand him as meaning the Jedi have been around "for a long darned time" and that means "since before the republic," whose current incarnation - or whatever - is 1,000 years old.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

1) We don't know if bespin and tatooine are republic member worlds or are just fringer outposts.

 

Bespin was independent in the movies until Vader moved in and make his infamous "deal". Tatooine was such a backwater that it was of little strategic interest (although a surprising number of important things happen there) so, among other things, law enforcement is lax and organized crime flourishes. That's why Jabba chose it as his home base -- there was so little local authority that he practically was the local authority.

 

I don't think its necessary to take Kenobi literally. I think its sufficient to understand him as meaning the Jedi have been around "for a long darned time" and that means "since before the republic," whose current incarnation - or whatever - is 1,000 years old.

 

And that itself is probably an exaggeration, because I have a hard time imagining any regime or system of government enduring that long.

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

And that itself is probably an exaggeration' date=' because I have a hard time imagining any regime or system of government enduring that long.[/quote']

 

There's Byzantium - the eastern empire - which stood from 286-1453.

 

And Rome itself - whose founding date is murky - which stood from 753 BCE - 410 CE.

 

But those are exceptional cases in the history of man rather than the rule.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Some of the Chinese dynasties had impressive runs... and one could argue that the Imperial government of China was the same system under different dynasties*.

 

*The current dynasty will go into the history books as the "Communist Dynasty", or perhaps the "Mao Dynasty". For the government still consists of the Emperor, the nobles, and the bureacracy, just with different names.

[Clonus]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

And that itself is probably an exaggeration, because I have a hard time imagining any regime or system of government enduring that long.

 

Consider the history of Egypt.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Egypt

 

The "Old Kingdom" lasts for five centuries

 

Then there's a century in which you have two rival power centres each claiming to be the rightful pharoahs, and going through a lot of pharoahs in the process.

 

Then four more centuries of relative stability and unity.

 

Then a century in which foreigners move in and dominate Egypt before they and their puppet dynasty of pharoahs are thrown out.

 

Then five more centuries of more or less stable unity.

 

Through all of that time, there is always some clown calling himself "Pharaoh of Egypt" even though the borders fluctuate and sometimes there are rival claimants, civil wars and shifts in religion. Someone in the New Kingdom could have said with perfect sincerity that he was living in a kingdom that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Poor Mandalorians.

[Lucius]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

There's Byzantium - the eastern empire - which stood from 286-1453.

 

And Rome itself - whose founding date is murky - which stood from 753 BCE - 410 CE.

 

But those are exceptional cases in the history of man rather than the rule.

 

And 410 didn't really spell the end of the Roman Empire; the Visigoths sacked Rome and left after 3 days.

 

Egypt was also a remarkably stable civilization, and like China could be argued to have had "the same government under a succession of different dynasties."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if there's a Power Law for the duration of political systems

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

And 410 didn't really spell the end of the Roman Empire; the Visigoths sacked Rome and left after 3 days.

 

Egypt was also a remarkably stable civilization, and like China could be argued to have had "the same government under a succession of different dynasties."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if there's a Power Law for the duration of political systems

 

The Chinese had a habit of saying entirely new polities were the continuation of their predecessors as a means of claiming legitimacy even though they were entirely separate - but many of these did last a long time and their civilization remained remarkably stable.

[Clonus]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

The Chinese had a habit of saying entirely new polities were the continuation of their predecessors as a means of claiming legitimacy even though they were entirely separate - but many of these did last a long time and their civilization remained remarkably stable.

 

Of course the fact that the video games are set in the "Old Republic" can be interpreted to mean to that they did experience a wide collapse of interstellar civilisation and had to reform the Republic after a Night.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

The Chinese had a habit of saying entirely new polities were the continuation of their predecessors as a means of claiming legitimacy even though they were entirely separate - but many of these did last a long time and their civilization remained remarkably stable.

 

Stable -- or stagnant? That's an interesting question. What does it say about a society when life goes on as it always did, unchangeable and unchanging, for hundreds or thousands of years? When you were what you were born into with no legitimate hope or means to improve your family's lot or even your own?

 

From the intro cinematic to Old Republic, it certainly looks as if the only way to find any sort of personal freedom was to go into crime such as smuggling. It doesn't strike me that the worth of people was a particular virtue among the Jedi.

[Christopher]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

And that itself is probably an exaggeration' date=' because I have a hard time imagining any regime or system of government enduring that long.[/quote']

And I have a hard time imgaing the resources it requires to build one Stardestroyer, yet alone a moon sized space station.

 

Stable -- or stagnant? That's an interesting question. What does it say about a society when life goes on as it always did, unchangeable and unchanging, for hundreds or thousands of years? When you were what you were born into with no legitimate hope or means to improve your family's lot or even your own?

 

From the intro cinematic to Old Republic, it certainly looks as if the only way to find any sort of personal freedom was to go into crime such as smuggling. It doesn't strike me that the worth of people was a particular virtue among the Jedi.

While it would answer the question about the apparent technological stagnation, I don't think it is likely that roles ins Star Wars where "fixed" as they were in China.

 

Unless of course, the "localism" we identified above combined with the relative fixed definition who makes what (a Bank-Clan, the Trade Federation with a King) somehow played a mayor role...

[Vondy]

Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Of course the fact that the video games are set in the "Old Republic" can be interpreted to mean to that they did experience a wide collapse of interstellar civilisation and had to reform the Republic after a Night.

From the intro cinematic to Old Republic' date=' it certainly looks as if the only way to find any sort of personal freedom was to go into crime such as smuggling. It doesn't strike me that the worth of people was a particular virtue among the Jedi.[/quote']

 

Its a video game.

 

In the EU, which includes the video games, there were serveral dark ages and collapses and restorations.

 

In the George-verse, they don't exist.

 

Which is, in my opinion, one of the great things about G-Canon. It is remarkably terse and open to some interpretation. One can work with it without being straight-jacketed by the oppressive morass of EU materials that have been produced over the years because that's a "parallel universe." And, unlike Trek, The Clone Wars television show only has 68 episodes to date and is run by someone who is careful about keeping things in line with the 6 movies. As a result, one can accept or reject EU materials as suits their fancy.

 

When I do SW I assume the Republic emerged from a dark age in then-known-space, and that before this the Sith "Rule of Two" had not been implemented, but am intentionally vague. There's no specific reason to be specific beyond fan-wank.