Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

[Akitoscorpio]

So far, nice book, like the art style, but I got a few concerns about the content of the book, It seems to be missing a few shockingly important details.....

 

 

Like how to make a character...... or how combat works.......

 

 

Basically you can see where I'm going with this, I got the book, mainly because no where on the front or back cover does it stat "You need like 2 expensive books to make this work" if anythins the front cover stats "The role playing game" strongly implying, the complete role-playing game!

 

So in short "What the hell, Hero games is this, crap!!!"

[Escafarc]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

Dude it says right on the Back Cover that it's requires two core rule books, one for creating characters and the other for combat.

[Akitoscorpio]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

 

Would you be so kind as to circle where on the back cover of this book that it clearly states it requires other books to play.

[Big Monkey]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

That's not a core rulebook. You need the Hero System 6th Edition books. What you have there is the "how to use 6th Edition to play superheroes" book.

[Escafarc]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

Well I can see your confusion but you implied that you had bought one of the "Core" Rule books which that is not. That is the Champions "Sourcebook" where it does say it for use with the HERO System. That's no different than sourcebooks in other systems where you have to have the core books to use(and most of them require more then just two core books).

[Akitoscorpio]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

Well I understand that *now* The point is that the only way I found that hour what when I went to the "Character creation" section and saw that it was...... missing a great deal.

 

Also no where on the book does it clearly state that it requires anything else to play, I pulled a random book off my self and checked to see if it was noted that it required other books to play in a clear concise manner....

 

First book I grabbed said this....

 

[Escafarc]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

That doesn't say you need other books it just says it's compatible. The only system I can think of where it actually says you need other books were third party books for D&D 3.0/3.5 where it said you needed the Players Handbook to use (a system which ended up with 9 core rulebooks by the end)

[Akitoscorpio]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

That doesn't say you need other books it just says it's compatible. The only system I can think of where it actually says you need other books were third party books for D&D 3.0/3.5 where it said you needed the Players Handbook to use (a system which ended up with 9 core rulebooks by the end)

 

Thats kinda what "suppliment" means... As in not standalone.

 

Look I'm not attempting to rag on the game itself, mostly because I do not have the full game, but I!m pretty sure if it was more clear on the book itself that I needed extra books, then I would have left it on the shelf gathering dust. Its the same reason I dont play DnD, I dont like having to dump money into sevral books to get basic rules.'

[Lucius]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

So far, nice book, like the art style, but I got a few concerns about the content of the book, It seems to be missing a few shockingly important details.....

 

 

Like how to make a character...... or how combat works.......

 

 

Basically you can see where I'm going with this, I got the book, mainly because no where on the front or back cover does it stat "You need like 2 expensive books to make this work" if anythins the front cover stats "The role playing game" strongly implying, the complete role-playing game!

 

So in short "What the hell, Hero games is this, crap!!!"

 

Well, the bad news is, you're right that what you have isn't playable alone. The good news is, you do not HAVE to get the "2 expensive books" either.

 

You can purchase the Basic Rules, which should give you all you need to create characters and run adventures, in a single volume more reasonably priced. It doesn't give you all the options and extras you get from buying the two main "Core" books but you can run Champions with it.

 

Then if you like how the system runs and want more flexibility, you can invest in the Character Creation and Combat and Adventuring books.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

[Ranxerox]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

I'm sorry that you were disappointed by your purchase. Will the game store that you bought it from allow you to return it?

 

If this experience has not completely burned you on the system, rather than buy two expensive books you can get the "HERO Systme Basic Rulebook" for $20 or as a $15 PDF file.

[Akitoscorpio]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

I'm afraid right now being told I would only need to spend an extra 20.00 to make what I was led to belive was a full game work is small comfort, particularly considering that I would be paying would be a "watered down" version of the rules.

 

But about returning it? Sure if I had a recipt, guess what my wife lost......

[Hermit]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

Assuming you aren't turned off entirely and are still considering buying the core rules : Also be on the look out on any deals on damaged books in the online store. It can be a nice savings, and sometimes the 'damage' is no more than a scratch, or a slightly dinged corner.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

I'll go out on a limb here and make the suggestion that you check out the Hero System Rules vol 1 & 2. They're every bit as good as the Champions sourcebook, and massively useful for other genres as well, so you might find they're a worthwhile purchase.

[DJWebb]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

Sooooo....if you bought it at a FLGS....*had* a reciept for your purchase...this would mean you had a chance to look through the book and see what it contained BEFORE making the purchase....

 

And several people who have posted before me are right..both volumes are worth picking up....

[Greywind]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

 

Would you be so kind as to circle where on the back cover of this book that it clearly states it requires other books to play.

First paragraph. Last sentence. "...using the HERO SYSTEM!" Since the book you bought was Champions, obviously it wasn't the Hero System books.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

I managed to get the Character Creation book for $20 due to damaged cover...which I can't see

[Lucius]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

First paragraph. Last sentence. "...using the HERO SYSTEM!" Since the book you bought was Champions' date=' obviously it wasn't the Hero System books.[/quote']

 

If I may make two points:

 

1. "Proving him wrong" or trying to is not going to make him happier with his purchase or more inclined to give Hero System a fair shot.

 

2. He has a point. "...using the HERO SYSTEM" implies that it's compatible with other Hero System products, but does not necessarily imply that this book is not a complete role playing game in itself. In fact, the phrase "Detailed information about creating superhero characters" could easily lead someone to think that they would actually find everything they need to create a superhero character.

 

At least he only needs one or at most two more books to have everything he needs. Back when I started Advanced D&D had three core books (DMs Guide, Player Handbook, Monster Manual) so I don't think it's unreasonable and it's better than some games out there.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Hero

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

If I may make two points:

 

1. "Proving him wrong" or trying to is not going to make him happier with his purchase or more inclined to give Hero System a fair shot.

 

2. He has a point. "...using the HERO SYSTEM" implies that it's compatible with other Hero System products, but does not necessarily imply that this book is not a complete role playing game in itself. In fact, the phrase "Detailed information about creating superhero characters" could easily lead someone to think that they would actually find everything they need to create a superhero character.

 

At least he only needs one or at most two more books to have everything he needs. Back when I started Advanced D&D had three core books (DMs Guide, Player Handbook, Monster Manual) so I don't think it's unreasonable and it's better than some games out there.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Hero

 

Yep. A good case of "being right" not actually being the most important thing.

 

Sorry for the confusion. We try our best to help newcomers.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

i'm sorry you bought Champions wishing a complete superhero game, and you found it's just a supplement. I know, it could be a great disappointment...

long time ago, i was disappointed too i had to buy a lot of books to play the game as i liked.

Then, years later, i found in the long run is way cheaper then other games. Let me explain this

 

you know, Hero system is not "a simple" game, it's a "toolikt", a set of rules, advices, concept and like to create your own game.

Most of the game give you a single corebook, with rules to run a single predefined game, and you can't change it. Then, you need to buy several books detailing different part of the campaign world, equipment, bestiary, and like. And then, you end up buying dozen of books just to play this pre-defined game.

and if you whant to change setting? you end up with buying a completely new set of core rulebook, settings, equipment, and like

 

Hero system is a generic game system, a toolkit (as i said before) to create your own game. As a toolkit, is full of rules, and pointing all exceptions, and giving you all the instruments.

Where "normal" game give you 5 pages of weapons and armors, hero give you 20 page of rule about creating weapons and armors, then some example to use; where other game give you 20 page of spells and powers, hero give you a complete 400 page book to let you create every single spell or power you like.

 

Because of this, Hero systems books tend to be very big, and thus also expensive. You can play the game just with the 2 core rulebook; even better, you can buy only the Hero System Basics. I don't have the Hero System Basics (for 6 Edition) but i got the basics for 5 Edition and it was all but a "watered version". Ok was not really complete, but way more complete than most of the rpg i got (and trust me, i got a LOT of RPG... even more than comics and videogame x.x )

 

You already bought Champions; you just need the basics or the 2 core rulebook to play every superheroic settings you want.

Today you can use to start a game with classical superhero (you know, the ones in the comic books). Tomorrow you can create a game where normal people discover superpowers. The day after, a game where supers are normalities and are traveling into the stars to help alien civilization.

and if next month you want to play a fantasy game, you don't need to buy a complete new ruleset; you only need the same two core rulebook (or the hero basics).

 

In the long run, it's way less expensive than buying ten different ruleset to play different game.

 

So, in conclusion, i understand you are disappointed and also a bit pissed about it; but maybe it's fate, maybe this could be the occasion to discover a completely new game system.

Plus, people on this forum are mostly nice people and they could give you some help if you ask in the right section and creator of the game Steven S Long himself replies to question about rules issue (and this is veeeeeeery rare thing).

 

So, my advice is give the game a try. I did it some years ago, and never had to regret about!

 

PS: i'm not from an english speaking country, plus is almost 3 am here and i'm a bit sleepy, so i apologize if i write something awful and full of orthography errors x.x

[Akitoscorpio]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

Okay I just got home from work, sorry for the delay, to answer the one question, no I don't even know what FLGS is as we don't have any in my neck of the woods, I live in the land of independent game shops, or Amazon.com if said shops don't have what we wanted.

 

Maybe, and I mean this sternly maybe, I'll give the books ago, I'm going to want to borrow them from someone at this point first so I can read them and make that decision, hard to do considering in my local gaming group none of us are Hero System players. This is because I don't honestly have allot of trust built up for the company at the moment. I'm willing to buy into say... White wolf, or Fantasy Flight Games blind, because I've bought there products before and usually had good experiences with them.....

 

Hero Games and I have clearly started off very rocky so I'm probably not going to make the mistake I made here and go off book cover alone this time around.... At this point when I see my gaming circle tomarrow, this experience is probably going to come up since I didn't try to find a copy of "Silver age Sentinels" at a used book store and insteed tried the "Long running and still published" I'm probably going to get a combination of "Really? holy crap." and "Wow I told you so".

[RexMundi]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

I'd say give the game a shot. Then again I've been with the game since day one year one and have watched a lot of game systems come and go. If you want to do, One set of rules to run any type of game you want, any genre, any time, anywhere, then this is the one you can do it with. So Hero System Vol.1 and Vol.2. Best bang for your buck in the Industry right now as far as things like versatility, content, and potential (not to mention word count but that's another thing altogether.)

 

~Rex

[Big Monkey]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

Okay I just got home from work' date=' sorry for the delay, to answer the one question, no [b']I don't even know what FLGS is[/b] as we don't have any in my neck of the woods, I live in the land of independent game shops, or Amazon.com if said shops don't have what we wanted.

 

Friendly Local Game Store.

[don]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

For the record, I can totally sympathize with where this guys is coming from. The back cover is utterly unclear (and the second bullet point contradictory) about it being a sourcebook for another toolkit game. And keep in mind that it refers to "Hero System" constantly on the back cover, but many RPGs use a special name for their rules systems: White Wolf Games uses "the Storyteller system"; the d20 System for D&D (and it's relatives); the Tri-Stat system; so on and so forth. So to see "Hero System" on the back cover repeatedly just implies the name of the system without really directing the buyer to the "Hero System core rulebooks, of which Champions is not". It's written kind of like the way the Harry Potter movies were filmed: for those already in the know.

 

Take care

Don

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

 

Would you be so kind as to circle where on the back cover of this book that it clearly states it requires other books to play.

 

This is, in my opinion, a very fair comment. It's very easy to say "you should have leafed through the book", but wasn't the switch to colour intended to attract gamer attention without making them read through the book? Sure, it says "Hero System". Pathfinder books all say "3.5*OGL Compatible", but they still list books as companions to the core rulebook, even when they are much more clearly supplements, and not complete games.

 

I have seen game store owners mislead by the book, very surprised to be told a player would also need the ruleboks. If he's mislead, and believes the Champions book to be capable of standalone play, how do you think he will present the book to potential purchasers? Let's remember that even in 4e, "Champions" was a complete game unto itself, so the issue is exacerbated by those familiar with the history, but not playing Hero Games, so not familiar with the current structure. The OP mentions his wife losing the receipt. Is it possible, do you suppose, that a non-gamer might buy a gift for a gamer, and that said non-gamer might, juts might, not consider the possibility that a 2" thick hardcover gaming book needs one or more additional books to be playable?

 

How tough would it be to have the back of these books clearly and explicitly state something like "This book is not a complete game system. The Hero System 6th Edition Rules (Basic Rulebook or Volume 1: Character Creation and Volume 2: Combat and Adventuring) are necessary to play." It seems like this would be very worthwhile to avoid negative experiences for purchasers such as this one.

 

I'm afraid right now being told I would only need to spend an extra 20.00 to make what I was led to belive was a full game work is small comfort' date=' particularly considering that I would be paying would be a "watered down" version of the rules.[/quote']

 

The Basic Book is a pretty complete version of the rules. It does lack a lot of examples of how they are used, and a few of the most complex rules, however the Champions book provides a lot of examples on how the rules are specifically used in a Superhero game, so bundling the two together gives you a solid package, at least as complete as any game on the market's "Core Rules", most of which are also purchased in multiple volumes.

 

 

First paragraph. Last sentence. "...using the HERO SYSTEM!" Since the book you bought was Champions' date=' obviously it wasn't the Hero System books.[/quote']

 

Pathfinder Core Rules includes that "3.5 OGL" tagline, and the 3rd Ed Players Handbook has a prominent icon for "d20 System". Would you assume that each of those books requries purchase of a rules system to be playable? You would be incorrect in doing so. Pathfinder has a single core rules book; PHB does still require a DMG and a Monster Manual, but neither are noted as required on the back of the book.

 

If I may make two points:

 

1. "Proving him wrong" or trying to is not going to make him happier with his purchase or more inclined to give Hero System a fair shot.

 

2. He has a point. "...using the HERO SYSTEM" implies that it's compatible with other Hero System products, but does not necessarily imply that this book is not a complete role playing game in itself. In fact, the phrase "Detailed information about creating superhero characters" could easily lead someone to think that they would actually find everything they need to create a superhero character.

 

When I read the back of the book (which I did previously when my FLGS had copies of Champions, but no rulebooks), it sure reads to me like "Here is a complete Supers game, playable as is". We're all familiar with the Hero structure, and I'd bet few, if any, of us read the back of the book before buying it, much less based our purchase decision on it. And, more to the point, "who's right" is irrelevant. Getting a sale because the back copy mislead (intentionally or not) the purchaser and alienating a potential customer, who is now unhappy and will share negative views, is not a win for Hero Games - even if a court would say "the phrasing quite clearly indicates you needed other books to play."

 

At least he only needs one or at most two more books to have everything he needs. Back when I started Advanced D&D had three core books (DMs Guide' date=' Player Handbook, Monster Manual) so I don't think it's unreasonable and it's better than some games out there. [/quote']

 

Unquestionably, the value is there. I don't think Hero should be afraid to explicitly state "you need this to play the game".

 

Sadly, can't rep Lucius...

[torchwolf]

Re: Questions about the Champions 6E core rules book

 

Okay I just got home from work, sorry for the delay, to answer the one question, no I don't even know what FLGS is as we don't have any in my neck of the woods, I live in the land of independent game shops, or Amazon.com if said shops don't have what we wanted.

 

Maybe, and I mean this sternly maybe, I'll give the books ago, I'm going to want to borrow them from someone at this point first so I can read them and make that decision, hard to do considering in my local gaming group none of us are Hero System players. This is because I don't honestly have allot of trust built up for the company at the moment. I'm willing to buy into say... White wolf, or Fantasy Flight Games blind, because I've bought there products before and usually had good experiences with them.....

 

Hero Games and I have clearly started off very rocky so I'm probably not going to make the mistake I made here and go off book cover alone this time around.... At this point when I see my gaming circle tomarrow, this experience is probably going to come up since I didn't try to find a copy of "Silver age Sentinels" at a used book store and insteed tried the "Long running and still published" I'm probably going to get a combination of "Really? holy crap." and "Wow I told you so".

 

I'm sorry you feel mislead by the back cover text. Still, the book is good value and (while I might be partial) you might want to give the system a chance.

 

If you just want an idea of how it works in general, there's this intro completely free for download:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/77944-Hero-In-Two-Pages-Complete