The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

[Duane From RI]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

First I want to make a brief rant regarding players with "I WIN" buttons. By the very guidelines of HERO System they should get less experience points. The guidelines specify you get a bonus experience point for the adventure being difficult. Oops, don't get that - how hard was it to teleport all the bad guys to an asteroid. Next the guidelines specify you get a bonus experience point for being clever, inventive or subtle. Oops, don't get that - not very clever "playing", maybe clever character design but no reward for that. Next the guidelines specify you get a bonus experience point if the scenario runs extra sessions. "I WIN" buttons will usually render adventures over lickity-split so no bonus points there. There's a bonus point for being outnumbered - hard to earn that if the "I WIN" guy cuts down the opposition without breaking stride.

 

On the other hand the comic books are filled with unstoppable powers. Prof X, Superman, Green Lantern, Hulk, current incarnation of Iron Man and so on. What makes stories with these characters interesting is that the problems they face are not directly solvable by the indiscriminate use of power.

 

Here's a simple one - villain has a Deadman Switch on a mental wavelength to a powerful bomb. If you teleport him away, Boom - innocent people die.

Another one - villain has his own teleport, this one is transdimensional and triggers if he gets teleported off the Earth. The other dimension is where the Fungi From Yuggoth allies have colonized the asteroid belt.

 

Maybe plots start to revolve around the teleporter. He's the Superman of the group so he is bound to attract the attention. Soon enough the other players will want a piece of the action but as GM you stick to your guns and explain that the villains of the world are smart enough to deal with the biggest threat. Inevitably the teleporter gets phased out of the story. The same dillema faces comic book writers. Its why so many incarnations of the Justice League have NOT included Superman and when they included a Green Lantern it was oft-times Guy Gardner who had enough psyche disads to render him reasonable. Its another reason Prof X is in a wheelchair and mostly at the mansion instead of flying on every mission.

 

Common Sense and Dramatic Sense say that characters with "I WIN" buttons should be the center of stories. This is always to the detriment of the Beast's, Huntress's, Black Panther's of the group. But majority tends to rule. "I WIN" should not be the goal of a player. "I HAD FUN" should be the goal. I'll take a character with an "I HAD FUN" button any day.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

While they do have an edge in taking the "undefeatable" bad folk away, they certainly aren't the head of the team, or hogging the spotlight all the time.

 

It's just that I was striving to find ideas in how to lessen the blandness in particular encounters.

[brionl]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

While they do have an edge in taking the "undefeatable" bad folk away, they certainly aren't the head of the team, or hogging the spotlight all the time.

 

It's just that I was striving to find ideas in how to lessen the blandness in particular encounters.

 

I think that if you just make sure to play the disadvantages of the moves, it will be self-correcting. Especially that Mega-scale is non-combat movement, so they have to be 1/2 DCV, for a whole extra phase. If villains start holding their actions and coordinating attacks to blast him while he's charging up, he's going to get clobbered a lot more. Also, who/whatever he's grabbed gets to take an action to break out. You don't have to come up with whole new powers, just new tactics.

 

Unless he's got really high STR for grabbing, and really high defenses to take a pounding as well as the teleport power. In that case, what other powers does he have?

[Duane From RI]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Sometimes it comes down to conditional limitations, charges or endurance costs. In an issue of JLA, The Joker got his hands on an artifact of "Imaginable only by Grant Morrison" power. He used to the artifact to carve a continental sized smiley face in the Earth. Jonn Jon'zz then trotted out some Mind Control to order the Joker's thoughts and make him sane for a brief moment. Joker repaired the damage including resurrenting the billions who died.

Now how many villains has Jonn Jon'zz fought over the decades that really could have used a dose of this power. Nonetheless the writers have trotted out only on a handful of occasions (once against Despero in older issues, Grant Morrison used it a couple of times) and have always handwaved that it costs Jonn a ton of energy. Thus Common Sense and Dramatic Sense are maintained.

Maybe that is the key to re-envisioning this power. Charges, Increased Endurance cost, Endurance Reserve with low recovery, conditional limitations, requires a desperation roll, anything to make the uncorking of this power something other than fait accompli.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Couple of points:

 

1. You can teleport out of an entangle, so I guess you can teleport out of a grab. The fact your opponent has grabbed you does not mean that you can not teleport and leave them behind - so at least one of the tactics suggestions I made earlier will not work.

 

2. From a game POV I think either the GM needs to create scenarios based around the players' characters, so that the challenges are tailored to the powers of the characters - which should include the opportunity to save the day by teleporting away bad guys - but should also contain plenty of instances where that is not going to work as a tactic OR the GM needs to speak to the player and say that this is not the sort of power he wants in the games he wants to run and suggest either that the player voluntarily stops doing it, that the player voluntarily accepts a limitation on the power (like a Power Skill roll to make it work) or the charcter has a radiation accident and is allowed to change their powers around a bit. That or pistols at dawn. I'm all for freedom of expression when it comes to character creation - that is what Hero is all about, but rpgs are a cooperative experience not a competition, and there's not much point unless everyone - including the GM - is enjoying the experience.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Sometimes it comes down to conditional limitations, charges or endurance costs. In an issue of JLA, The Joker got his hands on an artifact of "Imaginable only by Grant Morrison" power. He used to the artifact to carve a continental sized smiley face in the Earth. Jonn Jon'zz then trotted out some Mind Control to order the Joker's thoughts and make him sane for a brief moment. Joker repaired the damage including resurrenting the billions who died.

Now how many villains has Jonn Jon'zz fought over the decades that really could have used a dose of this power. Nonetheless the writers have trotted out only on a handful of occasions (once against Despero in older issues, Grant Morrison used it a couple of times) and have always handwaved that it costs Jonn a ton of energy. Thus Common Sense and Dramatic Sense are maintained.

Maybe that is the key to re-envisioning this power. Charges, Increased Endurance cost, Endurance Reserve with low recovery, conditional limitations, requires a desperation roll, anything to make the uncorking of this power something other than fait accompli.

 

Role players have to be a lot more honest than writers, because to us, continuity matters. Grant Morrison is not telling a story about Martian Manhunter, he's telling a story about GrantMorrison's Martian Manhunter (hey, he even has GM as initials!). GMMM is not the same character as some other author's MM, even if the comic numbers are consecutive. Hell GMMM is not the same character in every issue written by GM: they are all about the story, not about the consequences.

 

Having said that, GM does do some pretty god 'what if these characters were actually as powerful as they should be' stories.

 

While we are on comics in general, take a look at some. You'll find there will be some four or five page one on one fights, sometimes, but a lot of the time the combat is one-shotting. I've just gone and grabbed a graphic novel and it is Ultimate Avengers 3: Blade versus The Avengers. In this story vampires start to take over the world. The Avengers have a character caller Perun, who is a Thor type, very powerful, if not quite at god level. You see him enter the fight, kill one mook vampire, a vampire Captain America knocks him down, Perun throws VCA off then vampire HulkClone kills Perun by twisting his head around. What is that? Three phases? He is only 'hit' twice by two different characters) and only hits twice (again two different characters) in the combat and it is OVER for him.

 

All I'm saying is that 'one shot win' power' are a lot more common in comics than people might imagine. It is not about the mechanics so much as the drama. The trouble with a 'one shot win' power that keeps on getting used the same way time and again is that it is boring, and that, my friends, is a cardinal sin in both writing and role playing. We don't have the luxury of re-writing the characters every time we come to the table (although I recall a discussion with Derek Heimforth where he was saying 'Why not?', which is an interesting point, and the only good argument against it I could think of was 'Because I also need to sleep and earn money'), so we have to get creative. I think that if th megascale teleport were less 'automaticaly effective' it may be used less as a tactic.

 

One question though - if you take away that tactic, or limit it, does the character have other ways it can be effective in combat?

[william_nova]

Re: The Nightmare of Solomon

 

How do I stop this cheap (although logically sound and effective) tactic a PC uses?

 

They will grab a villain, blind teleport to charted (though not actually secret) asteroids in the galaxy, and leave them stranded there. The villains can't die, due to their immunities, but are effectively out of that fight...and the next one...and the one after that...and so forth.

 

It doesn't help that I inherited this group from another, so i'm trying to wrap my head around some of their builds.

 

I've read, um, most of this thread, and I see a lot of "fight fire with fire" solutions. Now, this is just my newbie .02, but bear with me; it sounds like you've got someone who, while not abusing the rules in the letter, is doing so in the spirit of it. The "I Win" button has been mentioned earlier in the thread, so I think it's fair to speculate in this direction.

 

From a game's narrative standpoint, a fight fire with fire sort of solution ends up being effective only until your troublesome PC comes up with a way to hack your hack of his/her hack; it's enforcing a PCs vs. the GM sort of scenario, in which somebody is always trying to "win" something. That antagonism seems to hurt more games than it helps, I've found.

 

For me, I'd simply not allow it to be done over and over, I mean, really, what kind of story would it be if the same tactic were used in a confrontation over and over? A boring one. Yes, there is winning, but where is the cool story in that, if it's just that?

 

As far as mechanics goes, if something simply does not work after it's been done a bunch of times, in a given situation, does it really need to be explained to the player why? Of course not. They do need to trust that you are not trying to "screw" them, if they've got that sort of mentality, but honestly I'd try to wean them off that sort of thinking at every chance you can get. It's more fun for everybody involved.

 

Here's a link that's kinda cool, though it's not the clearest written thing out there, most of the good stuff is under copyright and printed in books, and my forcing print thru the Intertubes skill is surely 8- or worse.

 

Here's the tl;dr version, just the same way the rules in a Hero campaign need to mirror its setting, Superheroic vs Heroic, Pulp vs Cyberpunk; players and GMs need their behavior to mirror the setting as well. Now we all know the only reason to alter those rules in the first place is so the feel of the game can better match its narrative structure and intent; yet that's not worth a hill of beans if players and/or GMs won't alter their behavior to fit a given narrative structure. I think Ragitsu's player has got a minor case of this and probably needs to be sat down and asked why they're doing what they're doing.

[Folded]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Question: How is the porter getting back to the battlefield after his blind port to the asteroid? I assume he's got one or more fixed locations on Earth, so getting to the planet is easy. But, unless he's taking a full Turn to memorize the location of each battlefield, he has to work his way back from his nearest Fixed/Floating location to the location of the battle in the usual ways. Seems like enforcing the difficulties of the return trip might well help out.

 

The one point that's come up over and over (and that I'll reiterate), is that bad guys develop new tactics. If this guy is the biggest threat they face, they will concentrate on ways to take him out. That's not picking on the player, that's playing the bad guys as something other than mindless plot devices. The Alpha Strike is the most obvious solution (Kill him FIRST, you idiots!), but here's mine.

 

Stage a few fights in advance (it might take a few for this to work properly). Plant a carefully hidden Mentalist with high levels of Mind Control. "This is where you want to teleport..." Cue the box full 'o' stun gas and hypnotizers. Megaport is now captured and being interrogated before dissection. Cue the remaining heroes to save his tail.

[Christopher]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

1. You can teleport out of an entangle' date=' so I guess you can teleport out of a grab. The fact your opponent has grabbed you does not mean that you can not teleport and leave them behind - so at least one of the tactics suggestions I made earlier will not work.[/quote']

Oh, a good one. Just let him face Tachyon. He has this nice "port to his back and hit him with suprise" trick.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Maybe I'm unnecessarily nasty, and maybe someone has suggested this already, but a 3d6+1 triggered drain of non-combat teleport movement (trigger being teleported by target) will mean that the teleporter can take you away, but loses 3/4 of their non-combat teleport distance, so, assuming their selected target destination is somewhere near their teleportation limit, and they can only get 1/4 of the way back, which will be in space. Make it fully IPE so they don't know what has happened until they TRY and get back...

 

Or, following on from Folded's point, a drain of floating TP locations is even cheaper: call it tachyon interference (thank you Christoper and Alan Moore ): it confuses their teleport sense. They can take an enemy out of the battle, but they take themselves out too...I mean, that one actually sounds reasonable...

[GoldenAge]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

I have an idea... Stop attacking them with robots and undead.

[Christopher]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Maybe I'm unnecessarily nasty' date=' and maybe someone has suggested this already, but a 3d6+1 triggered drain of non-combat teleport movement (trigger being teleported by target) will mean that the teleporter can take you away, but loses 3/4 of their non-combat teleport distance, so, assuming their selected target destination is somewhere near their teleportation limit, and they can only get 1/4 of the way back, which will be in space. Make it fully IPE so they don't know what has happened until they TRY and get back...[/quote']

While megascale works like NCM, it is not NCM. But like told above you can just block it with Change Environment. You usually buy it as "10 m, Megascaled to X". A mere Change Environment, -10m of Teleport Movement (10 Base Points) and his Megscaled is power is blocked and his normal Teleport is severly limited.

 

I am also not certain taht you can drain Fixed Locations. But I better ask Steve Long

[Christopher]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/86943-Drain-Fixed-Locations

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

While megascale works like NCM, it is not NCM. But like told above you can just block it with Change Environment. You usually buy it as "10 m, Megascaled to X". A mere Change Environment, -10m of Teleport Movement (10 Base Points) and his Megscaled is power is blocked and his normal Teleport is severly limited.

 

I am also not certain taht you can drain Fixed Locations. But I better ask Steve Long

 

 

True, but then a straight drain to teleport would work as well: 24 m megascaled to 240000km will only get you half way if you lose 12 m of teleoprt.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Question: How is the porter getting back to the battlefield after his blind port to the asteroid? I assume he's got one or more fixed locations on Earth' date=' so getting to the planet is easy. But, unless he's taking a full Turn to memorize the location of each battlefield, he has to work his way back from his nearest Fixed/Floating location to the location of the battle in the usual ways.[/quote']

 

If it were I, I'd have my regular teammates designated as my fixed locations.

[Folded]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

If it were I' date=' I'd have my regular teammates designated as my fixed locations.[/quote']

 

And I, as GM, would disallow a person as a location or as the basis for a location. And if I were a teammate, and the GM allowed it, I would absolutely refuse permission. In my group, that would be asking for all sorts of really unpleasant trouble (funny trouble, but trouble nonetheless).

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Novices teleport someone off the battle mat.

Amateurs teleport them off the planet.

Pros teleport them to another dimension.

Experts teleport them to a hostile dimension(e.g., Hell, the Qliphothic Realms, Tartarus).

But a master teleports them to the Garden of Earthly Delights.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

Any chance you could post the build the teleport character is using? I mean, just for the teleport power (and anything directly related), not the whole thing.

[phoenix240]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

For the cosmic entities, at least a few of them should probably have various megascaled movement abilities of their own (including Teleportation) and be able to return to the campaign (maybe even the battle) under their own power.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

And I' date=' as GM, would disallow a person as a location or as the basis for a location. And if I were a teammate, and the GM allowed it, I would absolutely refuse permission. In my group, that would be asking for all sorts of really unpleasant trouble (funny trouble, but trouble nonetheless).[/quote']

 

1. Assuming you can refuse. At some point, your teammate is going to be able to look at you for 12 seconds.

2. You trust him with your life, but you can't trust him not to teleport into your shower?

[Folded]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

1. Assuming you can refuse. At some point' date=' your teammate is going to be able to look at you for 12 seconds.[/quote']

 

Which is why I would not give permission. I can't stop him, but I can go on record as being against the idea.

 

2. You trust him with your life' date=' but you can't trust him not to teleport into your shower?[/quote']

 

More like I can't trust him not to teleport a series of hyperactive, diarrhetic monkeys into my vicinity when, say, I'm in a public place. Or my shower, for that matter.

[Christopher]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

True' date=' but then a straight drain to teleport would work as well: 24 m megascaled to 240000km will only get you half way if you lose 12 m of teleoprt.[/quote']

That would be a +2 Advantage, or 72 Active Points. With average effect (3 Drain per 10 AP) you had to hit him with at least 240 AP (with multiple attack) to stop him permanently.

 

With CE it would be: -24m Teleport Movement, 24 Base Points; +1 Megascaled (up to 1 km), +1/2 no End, +1/4 Persistent, 66 AP; -1/2 IAF, 44 Real Cost.

And you could cut out the Persistent/no End for a classical "powered by body heat and movement" build.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

That would be a +2 Advantage, or 72 Active Points. With average effect (3 Drain per 10 AP) you had to hit him with at least 240 AP (with multiple attack) to stop him permanently.

 

With CE it would be: -24m Teleport Movement, 24 Base Points; +1 Megascaled (up to 1 km), +1/2 no End, +1/4 Persistent, 66 AP; -1/2 IAF, 44 Real Cost.

And you could cut out the Persistent/no End for a classical "powered by body heat and movement" build.

 

 

I was just thinking of 60 points of drain v teleport: assuming that their own teleport including megascale, is no more than 60 points they will lose over a third of their distance. They can not then get to where ever it is they normally teleport to (or back) in one trip.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

What power would cause *just* the teleporter to be teleported away (perhaps even to a random location)?

[dmjalund]

Re: The Nightmare of Megascale Teleport

 

What power would cause *just* the teleporter to be teleported away (perhaps even to a random location)?

you could start with a limited desolid.