Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

[AlHazred]

After the last season of my Traveller Hero campaign ended, I read an article on Winchell Chung's site (authored by Neel Krishnaswami) regarding Causal Influence Diagrams and their application to gaming. I decided I really, really wanted to do something like this for my game, to more thoroughly involve the engineer PC. Well, the second season of my campaign has started up and it's time to put my money where my mouth is. So, I whipped this up today. What does the collective think? Did I get anything egregiously wrong? Are there more options to consider? And should I adapt this to maneuver drives (though they should be an order of magnitude simpler) and other starship systems like life support and such?

 

EDIT - Well, I had no problem getting the article, but I've redone the link and also uploaded the file to my file storage here, which should resolve the problem.

 

Jump Drive Causal Diagram

[Cancer]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Sorry, I get an HTTP Error 500 trying to get the document.

[Christopher]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Sorry' date=' I get an HTTP Error 500 trying to get the document.[/quote']

Me too. Could it be that the server has problems processing Filemames with spaces? Try to upload it again, but first replace any space with an underscore.

[Christopher]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Okay, read through the CID artikle. Sounds promising and could indeed solve some problems with non-combat activites having not enough "meaningfull decisions".

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

GDW's Starship Operators Manual had a ton of diagrams like this. Here's the one they did for Jump Drives:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41206[/ATTACH]

[Tasha]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Yep I was going to point out that his diagram was missing the all important Jump Capacitors. Also the Jump drive is connected to the Jump Grid (ie the Lanthanum grid) controlled by the Jump Governor and the Nav Computer. The Power Plant keeps the other items (ie Computers, life support etc) running. The Jump drive itself is a high output Fusion Powerplant, it wastes a ton of fuel generating the power to quickly power up the Jump Capacitors (usually Zuchai Crystals). The mention of the Capacitors is VERY important because the power to jump can come from other sources (though most Jump Capacitors leak power badly and are not good at holding power long term). That power can come from Black Globe Generators or even things like Solar Sails. The first Traveller Adventure (in Journal of the Travellers Aid Society, issue 1 or so).had a ship based on alien tech that used Solar Sails to power it's jump drives.

 

If you really want to know the technobabble about how jump drive systems work the Starship Operator's Manual which was published by Digest Group Publications is a good source and was official during the Mega-Traveller era. Unfortunately the IP for this and other DGP publications has been tied up in court for ever so is VERY hard to find (eBay sometimes finds copies for a large amount of cash). Other Traveller books are available from Far Future Enterprises as part of a CD set of high quality scans converted to PDF. http://www.farfuture.net/ also Drive thru RPG sells individual PDF's of everything, but the Digest Group Publications.

[Old Man]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

I own a copy of the SOM, though I can't get to it easily. It's fantastic and I very highly recommend it even for non-Traveller star campaigns.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

I've got an old copy, too. Actually, I hardly ever use my old Traveller stuff any more, so I might bring it up to Winter War and see about selling some of it.

 

Also, you didn't hear this from me, but you can find a pdf of DGP's SOM at www.filestube.com if you search for it there.

[Tasha]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Yeah there are unofficial versions of some of DGP's books available from THOSE kind of download sites. Unfortunatly, not all of the books seem to be available this way (ie DGP's Galactic Survey which is ultra-rare hasn't had a good scan). Now, I would hope that anyone would buy books from the IP holder and not just DL stuff ;-)

[AlHazred]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

I have acquired a copy of the Starship Operations Manual (best not to ask how) and will have to read it for version 2 of the diagram.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Yeah there are unofficial versions of some of DGP's books available from THOSE kind of download sites. Unfortunatly' date=' not all of the books seem to be available this way (ie DGP's Galactic Survey which is ultra-rare hasn't had a good scan). Now, I would hope that anyone would buy books from the IP holder and not just DL stuff ;-)[/quote']

 

Well, as you alluded to above, the individual who now owns the IP for all of those excellent old DGP books isn't selling them. I wouldn't ordinarily suggest downloading any 'unauthorized' versions like that, but in this case I'm making an exception, due to the enormous amount of ill-will he's earned from the Traveller community.

 

In other words

the guy's a complete douche-rocket and I don't care who rips him off.

 

[Tasha]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Well, as you alluded to above, the individual who now owns the IP for all of those excellent old DGP books isn't selling them. I wouldn't ordinarily suggest downloading any 'unauthorized' versions like that, but in this case I'm making an exception, due to the enormous amount of ill-will he's earned from the Traveller community.

 

In other words

the guy's a complete douche-rocket and I don't care who rips him off.

 

Yeah, in this case I totally agree. "Can't stop the signal!"

 

From other Author's dealing with Marc Miller, I have to wonder how much of that ill will is self inflicted by MM. It seems like he's been a touchy person to deal with IP wise. That if you get on his bad side then you really won't know how you stand with him. It's probably why DGP after basically writing everything for the MegaTraveller years. Suddenly decided to drop it all and try to publish their own Sci Fi game (which was not very compelling from what little they revealed about it). Now the guy that own's DGP's IP currently may have had run in's with MM that soured him on the whole Traveller supplement market. It has struck me that it's funny how FarFutures suddenly owns and publishes every Traveller Supplement even those formally owned by other companies. Perhaps the tactics that got MM the right to publish Paranoia Press, FASA, Judge's Guild etc's books are what turned off DGP's current owner to the whole thing. Perhaps he's the only guy that had the means to protect his IP. So till I know the whole story. I'll be slightly annoyed that I can't buy legit DGP back catalog, but I won't be POed by the IP's owner.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Looking at the way Thruster plates work, I am wondering why I don't see more tilt-engine (Serenity) ships when I see Traveller ship designs. That method would preclude the need for massively powerful engines or the perpendicular orientation that is mentioned in the SOM. Interesting read by the way.

[Tasha]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Looking at the way Thruster plates work' date=' I am wondering why I don't see more tilt-engine (Serenity) ships when I see Traveller ship designs. That method would preclude the need for massively powerful engines or the perpendicular orientation that is mentioned in the SOM. Interesting read by the way.[/quote']

 

Thruster plates were removed from the game after MegaTraveller. Something about infinite thrust implications or something. So that part of SOM isn't correct anymore. They now use a Gravitic Thruster that depends on being in a gravity well to work properly.

 

Having said that, I don't think that anyone thought of using GravPlate Tech to reduce the inertia of a mass then use Fusion Torches to actually move the Ship. Though in Serenity's case it seems like the pods are actually Jet Engines for Atmospheric movement, and they use the Grav field (the glowie sphere at the tail of the ship) to move in Vac.

 

As a Traveller ship, assuming those huge pods are Atmosphere only. Then they are a bunch of dead weight most of the time. In Traveller Ship design, most of your displacement is take up with fuel tankage for the Jump Drives. So there isn't really any space for Atmo only engines. That alone is probably why you don't see Pods on Trav ships. Also, early Traveller Ship design was highly influenced by Star Wars, so ships moved from the Airplane look to the Star Wars Empire Wedge look. Hell, the far trader even kind of looks like the Millennium Falcon in a general way. Since Firefly/Serenity, you see other SciFi games using the Serenity Layout for ships. So it's also an influence kind of thing.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Yeah, in this case I totally agree. "Can't stop the signal!"

 

From other Author's dealing with Marc Miller, I have to wonder how much of that ill will is self inflicted by MM. It seems like he's been a touchy person to deal with IP wise. That if you get on his bad side then you really won't know how you stand with him. It's probably why DGP after basically writing everything for the MegaTraveller years. Suddenly decided to drop it all and try to publish their own Sci Fi game (which was not very compelling from what little they revealed about it). Now the guy that own's DGP's IP currently may have had run in's with MM that soured him on the whole Traveller supplement market. It has struck me that it's funny how FarFutures suddenly owns and publishes every Traveller Supplement even those formally owned by other companies. Perhaps the tactics that got MM the right to publish Paranoia Press, FASA, Judge's Guild etc's books are what turned off DGP's current owner to the whole thing. Perhaps he's the only guy that had the means to protect his IP. So till I know the whole story. I'll be slightly annoyed that I can't buy legit DGP back catalog, but I won't be POed by the IP's owner.

 

Part of the decision for DGP to not develop for Traveller was explained in one of the MegaTraveller Journals. Simplifying the notes, DGP had been given the keys to the system, and were largely responsible for MegaTraveller. They weren't behind the move to the GDW house system (with T:NE), and wouldn't have a large say in how it would be developed. I've picked out a couple of paragraphs from the Helm Report for Issue 4 of The MegaTraveller Journal that explains their decision. For those concerned, the ellipsis skips a paragraph lamenting that they couldn't buy the rights to the game. I've also skipped the section that basically says that T:NE isn't really Traveller, and that the reader is free to try it themselves before buying AI (their game).

 

As much as we love Traveller (and we're true fanatics about the game)' date=' we've decided to no longer support the game with GDW's release of [i']Traveller the New Era.[/i] There are lots of reasons for this, the most significant being our desire to control a game's direction ourselves. GDW owns Traveller--we don't. And believe me, we've asked GDW if they would ever consider selling the rights to the game to us, but we always get a firm and definite "no."

 

...So, what do we do? We needed to pick some strategic time to change to doing our own game, and to get out of the "puppet on a string" relationship as a licensee. Traveller the New Era seemed like as good a time as any to make that shift. Plus, Marc Miller isn't actively involved in the design of New Era, so us "old-timers" here on the staff aren't as interested in the direction of the game minus Marc's influence.

 

There's also some information on the Traveller Wiki noting that development of Traveller under T:NE was transferred to Frank Chadwick, who ignored DGP's solution to the MT rebellion storyline, and didn't invite DGP to participate in the development of T:NE. There's a note about their license expiring, and a desire to not support a dead system (MT).

 

As far as the some of the publication rights for licensed product go, I'm not sure that the license holders can reprint the old stuff without a current license with FFE. I know that the folks at FASA were fairly friendly with GDW, as FASA originally started out as a way to produce more Traveller material, much of it from the Keith brothers. Judges Guild material is controlled by Hunter Gordon (QuikLink Interactive), so I can see that being included for sale by FFE.

 

JoeG

[Ternaugh]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Thruster plates were removed from the game after MegaTraveller. Something about infinite thrust implications or something. So that part of SOM isn't correct anymore. They now use a Gravitic Thruster that depends on being in a gravity well to work properly.

 

Having said that, I don't think that anyone thought of using GravPlate Tech to reduce the inertia of a mass then use Fusion Torches to actually move the Ship. Though in Serenity's case it seems like the pods are actually Jet Engines for Atmospheric movement, and they use the Grav field (the glowie sphere at the tail of the ship) to move in Vac.

 

As a Traveller ship, assuming those huge pods are Atmosphere only. Then they are a bunch of dead weight most of the time. In Traveller Ship design, most of your displacement is take up with fuel tankage for the Jump Drives. So there isn't really any space for Atmo only engines. That alone is probably why you don't see Pods on Trav ships. Also, early Traveller Ship design was highly influenced by Star Wars, so ships moved from the Airplane look to the Star Wars Empire Wedge look. Hell, the far trader even kind of looks like the Millennium Falcon in a general way. Since Firefly/Serenity, you see other SciFi games using the Serenity Layout for ships. So it's also an influence kind of thing.

 

T:NE had alternate rules for Thrusters in Fire, Fusion & Steel, but all official designs used HePlaR. The problem was, most ships would have to tap into their jump fuel reserves with just a little maneuvering. Gravitic lifters (contragrav) were only to cancel out most of the mass while very close to a world, meaning that all grav vehicles needed some sort of secondary thrust to move. Usually, that was HePlaR again, which meant that there were severe danger zones in back of air/rafts and the like. Not the best for city traffic!

 

Thrusters were added back in T4, with the limitation that they didn't function if you were over 1000 diameters from a large object (planet, moon, star). In our solar system, that means that thruster plates would work normally off of the Sun's gravitational field almost out to Saturn. Ships commonly operating in deep space would have additional engines that used reaction mass under T4 rules. Contragrav worked within 1 planetary diameter, and, unlike T:NE, excess thrust (over that needed to cancel out gravity) could be used to move the vehicle.

 

JoeG

[Nolgroth]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Thruster plates were removed from the game after MegaTraveller. Something about infinite thrust implications or something. So that part of SOM isn't correct anymore. They now use a Gravitic Thruster that depends on being in a gravity well to work properly.

 

Having said that, I don't think that anyone thought of using GravPlate Tech to reduce the inertia of a mass then use Fusion Torches to actually move the Ship. Though in Serenity's case it seems like the pods are actually Jet Engines for Atmospheric movement, and they use the Grav field (the glowie sphere at the tail of the ship) to move in Vac.

 

As a Traveller ship, assuming those huge pods are Atmosphere only. Then they are a bunch of dead weight most of the time. In Traveller Ship design, most of your displacement is take up with fuel tankage for the Jump Drives. So there isn't really any space for Atmo only engines. That alone is probably why you don't see Pods on Trav ships. Also, early Traveller Ship design was highly influenced by Star Wars, so ships moved from the Airplane look to the Star Wars Empire Wedge look. Hell, the far trader even kind of looks like the Millennium Falcon in a general way. Since Firefly/Serenity, you see other SciFi games using the Serenity Layout for ships. So it's also an influence kind of thing.

Well I was mostly referring to Serenity in terms of how the ships are designed and where to put the thruster plates. If they have been removed from the game, then it doesn't truly matter. My idea also revolves around the idea that you can limit the arc of gravitic "thrust." Otherwise, the ship itself would be torn apart.

 

I really think the whole concept would work better in a space opera game and, as I've heard tell, Traveller is based a little more firmly in science. I wouldn't know, as I once owned a copy of Traveller: The New Era and cracked it open just once.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

I got a chance to read over some basic outline material for the game DGP was working on after Traveller... it really wasnt that great, the guy who owned the DGP IP wanted as part of a sale of the Traveller stuff to have his own game project published too...

not really sure if thats ever changed. Traveller Hero was an unfortunate victim of Marc Miller deciding to go with consolidating the number of RPG licenses... Frank Chadwick and Dave Nilsen came up with TNE and the whole Virus ID as a way of restarting Traveller and porting the rules over to the second edition Twilight 2000 or "House Rules" I think both were big mistakes. I was never a big fan of Frank or Dave, Frank has done some great work in the boardgame and minatures fields, Dave Nilsen however came out with an incredibly arrogant statement in the forward to Keepers of the Flame that really pissed some people off. the initial press release from Mongoose concerning the Traveller license was even more arrogant, and I took that up with Marc in person a couple of days later[its nice living in the same neighborhood sometimes]

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

then again, being another really old traveller person, I wondered about the wisdom of the title "Traveller 2300", Megatraveller had some good ideas although my least favorite was trying to combine Striker and High Guard into one system.

Digest Group did some great work on MT, Starship Operators Manual, World Builders Handbook, 101 Vehicles, 101 Robots.

 

Can we please not talk about Traveller 4th Edition... mostly junk, although there were a couple of useful books... Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons should have been published long before

[AlHazred]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

Heck, as far as I can tell, the Starship Operator's Manual is pretty system-agnostic. I'm still processing the flowcharts - while I like the level of detail for myself, I have a feeling it's going to be too much for my player. Plus, my group has a different starship which they've customized, so the specifics in the manual are not very useful. A pity, too, as I think the idea had a lot of merit. Would have been nice to see the same treatment for a number of different ships, with deckplans and a separate stats section.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Traveller Hero: Jump Drive Causal Influence Diagram

 

for starship deck plans, you might see about finding a copy of the Naval Architects book for Traveller 4th Edition, it had some possibly useful deckplans, not sure how hard it is to find. fair warning its in squares instead of hexes, but if figure 1 traveller square is about equal to 2 hero hexes