How strong is...

[DJWebb]

So I'm building an NPC for my low powered supers game (300 points), it's a street level superhero with actual powers, not just martial arts and utility belts. This NPC has "the strength of three to five men" with "rhino hide" toughness.

 

Game terms, how would you gauge this?

[Bloodstone]

Re: How strong is...

 

Someone with STR 20 is four times stronger than a guys with STR 10

 

And someone with STR 30 is four times stronger than someone with STR 20

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: How strong is...

 

This NPC has "the strength of three to five men"

For the sake of being larger-than-life' date=' let's take that to mean the strength of 3-5 [i']strong[/i] men. A 25 STR character would be as strong as 4 characters with 15 STRs.

with "rhino hide" toughness.

A rhino has 21 PD (6 of which is resistant) and 14 ED (4 of which is resistant). So you'd probably want to be in that ballpark.

[Christopher]

Re: How strong is...

 

So I'm building an NPC for my low powered supers game (300 points), it's a street level superhero with actual powers, not just martial arts and utility belts. This NPC has "the strength of three to five men" with "rhino hide" toughness.

 

Game terms, how would you gauge this?

General asumption for STR and attacks are: +5 AP (or +1 DC) equals doubling the effect. And if defenses are scaled equally, then you should indeed get roughly twice the damage after defenses (asuimg PD/ED; Mental, Power and Flash defense tends to be rarer, but it's still a good guideline).

 

The usual way of adding STR is: Take the liftign wieght of each character. Sum it up. Search what STR has that much lifting capacity.

10 STR can lift 100 kg. Times 5 is 500 kg, so between 20(400 kg) and 23(600 kg).

"Strongmen" can easily go up to 20 STR (or can even get closer to 30), so predict 5 times of that to be 30-33 STR.

 

These guideliens are mostly just comicbook descriptions, that very from writer to writer anyway. What you should look at are Damage Caps and Defense Caps for the campaign.

If you want him to be a "brick" (like Herucles, Thor, Superman), then having STR near the Damage Cap and Defenses near the Defense Cap would be very wise.

[Martin2]

Re: How strong is...

 

Also do you mean 4 x lift strength or 4 x damage from a hit.

 

Str 10 does 2D6 damage. Str 40 does 8D6. So a Str 40 lifts a lot more than 4 men can carry but effectively 4 x the punch of 4 people (but in combat as you take of defences the Str 40 does more damage in one hit then 4 x 10 str would do as the damage comes of each attack).

 

It gets confusing as you have linear and non linear increases in HERO.

[Christopher]

Re: How strong is...

 

Also do you mean 4 x lift strength or 4 x damage from a hit.

 

Str 10 does 2D6 damage. Str 40 does 8D6. So a Str 40 lifts a lot more than 4 men can carry but effectively 4 x the punch of 4 people (but in combat as you take of defences the Str 40 does more damage in one hit then 4 x 10 str would do as the damage comes of each attack).

 

It gets confusing as you have linear and non linear increases in HERO.

Actually the damage increases nonlinear too. 8d6 is 2^6 (64) times the damage. Not 6 times.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How strong is...

 

You have to take some liberties. The Sub-Mariner was described as having "the strength of 10 men", but I doubt a 30 or so STR would make a satisfactory Standard Supers character (or accomplish his feats in the comics).

[DJWebb]

Re: How strong is...

 

Thank you all for your assistance, it is much appreciated.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: How strong is...

 

You have to take some liberties. The Sub-Mariner was described as having "the strength of 10 men"' date=' but I doubt a 30 or so STR would make a satisfactory Standard Supers character (or accomplish his feats in the comics).[/quote']

 

I made a wolverine clone once and tried to keep it close to the description of he was strong as x number of men, and it didn't work out so well-Hugh's advice is good.

[fbdaury]

Re: How strong is...

 

Actually the damage increases nonlinear too. 8d6 is 2^6 (64) times the damage. Not 6 times.

 

Uhm... no. 2d6= max damage of 4 body and 12 stun, 8d6= max body 16 and 48 stun, so 16/4 and 48/12= 4 times the damage, not 64 times the damage- the claim that because the lifting capacity doubles with every 5 points mean that any 5 active point increase equalled a doubling of power has never made sense. It's one of the reasons why superstrong characters in Champions are WAY underpowered in terms of their damage output vs. lifting capacity.

 

Perfect example- a bank vault (Per 6th ed, since that is what you use) has 16 rPD and 9 Body, now even saying that since the character wishes to rip a door off the vault, not destroy it so he's really just doing the damage to hinges and the locking mechanism and that would be say 2 of the 9 body of the door, he would still need to do 18 Body to achieve that effect. So, being generous and assuming that every thrid d6 rolled produces a 6 for 2 body damage, you are still looking at 15d6 Strength, or str 75 to rip that door off it's hinges- possibly a str 65 with pushing- that's someone capable of lifting 200 tons (65) or 800 tons (75) to do something that Str 40 or 45 characters do in comics. That does not follow as being accurate based on the genre being emulated in superhero comics.

[Christopher]

Re: How strong is...

 

Uhm... no. 2d6= max damage of 4 body and 12 stun' date=' 8d6= max body 16 and 48 stun, so 16/4 and 48/12= 4 times the damage, not 64 times the damage- the claim that because the lifting capacity doubles with every 5 points mean that any 5 active point increase equalled a doubling of power has never made sense. [/quote']

2d6 vs 2 PD: 2 Body and 10 STUN after Defenses max (Chance: 1:36)

8d6 vs 2 pD: 14 Body and 46 STUN after Defenses max (Chance: 1: 1,679,616)

 

Keep in mind that the averages and the Damage after defenses are more important:

2d6 vs 2 PD: 0 Body and 5 STUN on average; Person with 10 CON, 20 STUN is at 15.

8d6 vs 2 PD: 6 Body and 26 STUN on average; Person with 10 CON, 20 STUN is at -6, Body at 4

[fbdaury]

Re: How strong is...

 

Defenses are static vs various damage so that doesn't change the fact that 16 body is 4 times 4 Body, not 64 times- just because you're geting more damage past defenses doesn't change the power output of the attack, it just means that the target's defenses are ill equipped to deal adequately with that higher level of damage.

 

I understand the company line is that 5 active points= doubled, but it doesn't, no matter how you try to explain it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How strong is...

 

2d6 vs 2 PD: 2 Body and 10 STUN after Defenses max (Chance: 1:36)

8d6 vs 2 pD: 14 Body and 46 STUN after Defenses max (Chance: 1: 1,679,616)

 

Keep in mind that the averages and the Damage after defenses are more important:

2d6 vs 2 PD: 0 Body and 5 STUN on average; Person with 10 CON, 20 STUN is at 15.

8d6 vs 2 PD: 6 Body and 26 STUN on average; Person with 10 CON, 20 STUN is at -6, Body at 4

 

When does a credible opponent in a game where 8 DC's are the norm have 2 defenses? I agree averages and damage after defenses are more important, but it is campaign standard defenses, not "NPC Scenery" defenses, that are important.

 

On average, the 75 STR character will roll 15 BOD, which is less than the poster hypothesizes above. He needs 90 STR to rip the vault door off its hinges on an average roll.

 

I suggest the issue is not with the damage, or the doubling conceit, but in making real world objects excessively sturdy as compared to the expected power level of the characters. If a 60 STR character should be able to rip the vault door off its hinges, laughing as he robs the bank, it should have lower defenses. Maybe it gets higher BOD, and the character must take a few phases (12 seconds in a turn!) to rip the vault door off, but it should be a trivial task for any Brick if we are to be true to the source material.

[Christopher]

Re: How strong is...

 

When does a credible opponent in a game where 8 DC's are the norm have 2 defenses? I agree averages and damage after defenses are more important, but it is campaign standard defenses, not "NPC Scenery" defenses, that are important.

 

On average, the 75 STR character will roll 15 BOD, which is less than the poster hypothesizes above. He needs 90 STR to rip the vault door off its hinges on an average roll.

 

I suggest the issue is not with the damage, or the doubling conceit, but in making real world objects excessively sturdy as compared to the expected power level of the characters. If a 60 STR character should be able to rip the vault door off its hinges, laughing as he robs the bank, it should have lower defenses. Maybe it gets higher BOD, and the character must take a few phases (12 seconds in a turn!) to rip the vault door off, but it should be a trivial task for any Brick if we are to be true to the source material.

I think more lenience regarding Haymaker out of combat and for non damaging pruposes (lifting) would also help. Those +4 DC/+20 STR can mean 4 more Body on average or that much more lifting wieght.

[phoenix240]

Re: How strong is...

 

When does a credible opponent in a game where 8 DC's are the norm have 2 defenses? I agree averages and damage after defenses are more important, but it is campaign standard defenses, not "NPC Scenery" defenses, that are important.

 

On average, the 75 STR character will roll 15 BOD, which is less than the poster hypothesizes above. He needs 90 STR to rip the vault door off its hinges on an average roll.

 

I suggest the issue is not with the damage, or the doubling conceit, but in making real world objects excessively sturdy as compared to the expected power level of the characters. If a 60 STR character should be able to rip the vault door off its hinges, laughing as he robs the bank, it should have lower defenses. Maybe it gets higher BOD, and the character must take a few phases (12 seconds in a turn!) to rip the vault door off, but it should be a trivial task for any Brick if we are to be true to the source material.

 

And don't get me started on tanks

[Christopher]

Re: How strong is...

 

And don't get me started on tanks

My general asumptio nregarding the book vehicle and equipment is:

Those values are for Heroic games, not superheroic ones.

In heroic penetrating would be very, very rare but Armor Piercing can make a mayor difference for "Anti Tank Weapons".

[fbdaury]

Re: How strong is...

 

When does a credible opponent in a game where 8 DC's are the norm have 2 defenses? I agree averages and damage after defenses are more important, but it is campaign standard defenses, not "NPC Scenery" defenses, that are important.

 

On average, the 75 STR character will roll 15 BOD, which is less than the poster hypothesizes above. He needs 90 STR to rip the vault door off its hinges on an average roll.

 

I suggest the issue is not with the damage, or the doubling conceit, but in making real world objects excessively sturdy as compared to the expected power level of the characters. If a 60 STR character should be able to rip the vault door off its hinges, laughing as he robs the bank, it should have lower defenses. Maybe it gets higher BOD, and the character must take a few phases (12 seconds in a turn!) to rip the vault door off, but it should be a trivial task for any Brick if we are to be true to the source material.

 

I think if the use of strength over a certain threshold were converted to KA damage, it might better model the horrendous damage someone that strong should do, ie 75 STR is 5d6 KA and that vault door is easily removed, for a STR 45 Brick, the push for a 3 1/2dk KA still won't get through the door but it is much closer...

[dmjalund]

Re: How strong is...

 

the lower the campaign defenses, the less NPCs look like scenery

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How strong is...

 

I think if the use of strength over a certain threshold were converted to KA damage' date=' it might better model the horrendous damage someone that strong should do, ie 75 STR is 5d6 KA and that vault door is easily removed, for a STR 45 Brick, the push for a 3 1/2dk KA still won't get through the door but it is much closer...[/quote']

 

The average roll on 5d6 is 17.5, so that 16 defense bank vault is still going to take time for a 75 STR character. STR 45, with an average roll of 10.5? Don't hold your breath!

 

As for pushing, while another topic entirely, I'm not convinced ripping a vault door open is a sufficiently heroic action in most cases to allow pushing. A Haymaker would be more viable anyway, adding 4 DC's, but 4d6+1 still averages 15 BOD, so you'll likely need several tries to get in.

[fbdaury]

Re: How strong is...

 

The average roll on 5d6 is 17.5, so that 16 defense bank vault is still going to take time for a 75 STR character. STR 45, with an average roll of 10.5? Don't hold your breath!

 

As for pushing, while another topic entirely, I'm not convinced ripping a vault door open is a sufficiently heroic action in most cases to allow pushing. A Haymaker would be more viable anyway, adding 4 DC's, but 4d6+1 still averages 15 BOD, so you'll likely need several tries to get in.

 

True- but rarely is a roll exactly average- that 5d6 might roll 20, might even roll the full 30? Unlikely sure but it happens- I think pushing would be heroic if there were something inside the safe that was vitally important to get out- say an NPC running out of air or a bomb set to blow up the valuables inside...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How strong is...

 

True- but rarely is a roll exactly average- that 5d6 might roll 20' date=' might even roll the full 30? Unlikely sure but it happens- I think pushing would be heroic if there were something inside the safe that was vitally important to get out- say an NPC running out of air or a bomb set to blow up the valuables inside...[/quote']

 

You have a better chance at rolling exceptionally high BOD, but you will still likely require a few tries to get that result, unlike the source material where the typical Brick rips the vault open in one panel. Especially if the GM rules that the full vault BOD represents "making the vault accessible, so ripping the door of its hinges", rather than allowing that the hinges only need 1 or 2 BOD to break.

 

As to pushing, I agree there may be situations where it's appropriate, but the discussion started around "this seems pretty easy for any high STR character in the comics, and that's not matched by the results in the game". I would not likely allow Ogre to Push his STR to open the vault during a robbery.

[Tech]

Re: How strong is...

 

True- but rarely is a roll exactly average- that 5d6 might roll 20' date=' might even roll the full 30? Unlikely sure but it happens- I think pushing would be heroic if there were something inside the safe that was vitally important to get out- say an NPC running out of air or a bomb set to blow up the valuables inside...[/quote']

 

Statistically speaking, the change of 15d6 rolling all 6's is super against it. In the 25+ years of the Champions campaign I've been in, I can say I have never seen all 6's with attacks doing 9d6 or above, whether GM'ing or player. I'm not saying someone hasn't done it in one of their campaigns, just myself. Assuming someone else has done it, they've broken the odds then. I've managed to choke out 22 or 23 body with 15d6 but that's about it.

[Christopher]

Re: How strong is...

 

The average roll on 5d6 is 17.5, so that 16 defense bank vault is still going to take time for a 75 STR character. STR 45, with an average roll of 10.5? Don't hold your breath!

 

As for pushing, while another topic entirely, I'm not convinced ripping a vault door open is a sufficiently heroic action in most cases to allow pushing. A Haymaker would be more viable anyway, adding 4 DC's, but 4d6+1 still averages 15 BOD, so you'll likely need several tries to get in.

I would think "large vault door" is what they put in Military Tresors with the McGuffin inside.

The average Bank would propably only be a "Safe door" with 10 PD, 15 ED, 9 Body.

 

For Ogre keep in midn that he has 1m Tunneling vs. 15 PD material, so he can just punch through the wall.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How strong is...

 

Statistically speaking' date=' the change of 15d6 rolling all 6's is super against it. In the 25+ years of the Champions campaign I've been in, I can say I have [b']never[/b] seen all 6's with attacks doing 9d6 or above, whether GM'ing or player. I'm not saying someone hasn't done it in one of their campaigns, just myself. Assuming someone else has done it, they've broken the odds then. I've managed to choke out 22 or 23 body with 15d6 but that's about it.

 

All 6's? 1 in 470 billion. If you roll 15d6 every 10 seconds, never stopping, it should come up a bit more often than every 150,000 years.

 

5d6 all 6's? 1 in 7,776, so only 13 hours of rolling - much more likely!

 

 

I would think "large vault door" is what they put in Military Tresors with the McGuffin inside.

The average Bank would propably only be a "Safe door" with 10 PD, 15 ED, 9 Body.

 

For Ogre keep in midn that he has 1m Tunneling vs. 15 PD material, so he can just punch through the wall.

 

OK, first, that Tunneling is a kludge designed to avoid having to deal with the object's BOD, so it is a build specifically designed to get around the fact that raw STR can't get through objects that the source material says the character should be able to get through.

 

Second, "Safe" is, to me, a much smaller item than a "vault". There is a safe in my hotel room.

 

Third, we're not talking about tunneling through the wall instead - and shouldn't the wall be as well defended as the vault door? If not, why do the Supers and the Heroic safecrackers always focus on the door instead of coming in through the wall?

 

Finally, the source material will show Ogre ripping the door off the vault. If we need a bizarre, counterintuitive build to do that, rather than it being something a typical Brick can accomplish, then we have a failure to emulate the source material.

[Ice9]

Re: How strong is...

 

It seems like the issue is this - "realistically", getting hit by somebody who can carry around battleships will turn anyone without equivalent durability into red mist. But we don't want the game to work that way (and comics often don't work that way), so the logarithmic thing is inserted instead. But then, we have the issue of inanimate objects. By the comics standard, inanimate objects should be treated like lifting is - i.e. Superman tears apart any non-unobtanium structure, no problem. But by the gameplay standard, the problem is that we gave the other characters equivalent damage attacks, and being able to rip apart a tank in seconds by throwing (non-super) knives at it sounds pretty stupid.

 

 

I think the possible solutions are:

1) Fudge certain things and don't think too much about it.

2) Add relevant advantages and limitations to things (Bank Vault DEF: Not vs Super-Strength, Knife Throwing: Not vs Objects without Weak Points).

3) Give attacks certain keywords, and make those keywords have a mechanical effect.

 

For an example of the third: we could tag damage DCs as either [Force], [skill], or [Deadliness]. A given attack could be split between those - for example, a Martial Strike from a STR 15 guy has 3 DCs of [Force] and 2 of [skill].

* [Force] is treated exponentially against inanimate objects. Either a multiplication of effect, or objects just have a certain threshold where they get automatically destroyed.

* [skill] doesn't even count against homogeneous objects (a wall), and only counts linearly against objects with parts (a vehicle).

* [Deadliness] doesn't even count against objects, unless they're partially organic or especially delicate. This would be things like barbed blades, or radiation fallout from an energy beam.

 

You'd need some other effects besides this, because it currently favors [Force] exclusively. A couple thoughts - [skill] still works when you're not using your own body/equipment. [Deadliness] works even if you couldn't see the target accurately, [skill] might not. [skill] could give you more leeway when using the Power skill.