From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

[Ozymandias]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

As for that' date=' I get enough in real life. Superheroes are an inherently unrealistic genre so I never understoood attempts to make their comic books and games "realistic." In reality, Batman would be shot dead the first time he tried to take on a gang of thugs and we'd have a small news item on page B2 about it.[/quote']

 

Well, if we want to be truely "realistic" it would probably get more than a small news item on Page B2. I'd expect it to be a sub headline on the cover, or, if it were a slow news day, the cover headline. Bruce Wayne is incredibly rich after all.

[Revenant]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

My preference in a game that would cause me to come running is Gold/Silver. I'm willing to play Bronze as most supers games end up in that vein, but Iron I stay far far away from. In other words, Gray and I, especially in supers, get along about as well as fire and water when it comes to my enjoyment of a game.

[Kap]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

Well' date=' if we want to be truely "realistic" it would probably get more than a small news item on Page B2. I'd expect it to be a sub headline on the cover, or, if it were a slow news day, the cover headline. Bruce Wayne [i']is[/i] incredibly rich after all.

 

No, because in a realistic setting Bruce Wayne would never become Batman in the 1st place. It would be some deluded kid who read too many comic books, thus the B2 placing for the small news item.

[megaplayboy]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

I like characters being able to change the world ala Iron Age, but intensely dislike the gratuituous body count and unnecessary GM/player cruelty that often, IME, surfaces. It becomes "let's do horrible crap to this PC/NPC because it's just the way things are in this campaign universe". When the GM starts doing it, players instinctively respond by disinhibiting their PCs from their usual moral restraints, just so they can have some cathartic blood-letting. When players start doing it, GMs begin making their villains nastier and more lethal, "so the players can feel what it's like to have to keep doing new character writeups all the time!" (As a GM, actually, I dislike having to write up "replacement" villains because the players can't seem to go 3 sessions without bumping off another one.)

 

Heroes with feet of clay, dubious moral choices in their private lives, bad habits, etc., I'm fine with that. Snarky casual killers who are only distinguished from villains by the flashing "PC" sign above their heads, not so much.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

If you consider yourself a fan of comic books' date=' you owe it to yourself to read the Watchmen.[/quote']

 

I know I'm in the minority but I actually feel the opposite.

[Zen Archer]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

No' date=' because in a realistic setting Bruce Wayne would never become Batman in the 1st place. It would be some deluded kid who read too many comic books, thus the B2 placing for the small news item.[/quote']

 

Don't forget the various orgs that would come out to exploit the situation. Such a thing could easily go national.

[Kap]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

Don't forget the various orgs that would come out to exploit the situation. Such a thing could easily go national.

 

Or just as easily be minimized as "Idiot Gets Self Killed Playing Super Hero, Film at Eleven." Might get a mention in "News of the Weird" and not much else, depending on what else is happening that week, kind of like how Farrah Fawcett's death was overshadowed by Michael Jackson dying the same day.

[Ozymandias]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

Or just as easily be minimized as "Idiot Gets Self Killed Playing Super Hero' date=' Film at Eleven." Might get a mention in "News of the Weird" and not much else, depending on what else is happening that week, kind of like how Farrah Fawcett's death was overshadowed by Michael Jackson dying the same day.[/quote']

 

Michael Jackson Upstage someone? Ain't that always the truth?

 

Anyway, based on the anti-video game reactionaries who pop up whenever someone who has ever played a video game commits any type of violent crime, I think it could cause a second "Seduction of the Innocent" witch-hunt on comics.

[Kap]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

Michael Jackson Upstage someone? Ain't that always the truth?

 

Anyway, based on the anti-video game reactionaries who pop up whenever someone who has ever played a video game commits any type of violent crime, I think it could cause a second "Seduction of the Innocent" witch-hunt on comics.

That could be an interesting starting point for a "real life" (non-powered) super hero game.

-Kap

[Ranxerox]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

For many of us the Superfriends were our first exposure to heroes in media. The stories were often silly, the characters appropriately cartoonish, but the good guys always won, and acted like heroes. On the other end of the spectrum is the Watchmen, where the characters were costumed, but were they heroes? Nite Owl 2 was the closest to be a standard superhero, Silk Spectre 2 had the moves and the looks, and Dr. Manhatten had the power, but even they didn't hold back and bring the villains in alive.

 

My question is this? Are your heroes good people who use minimal force, resist the urge to be judge, jury, and executioner, protect the innocetn, and usually win in the end because the GM approves and rewards good behavior? Or are you in the game to punish the guilty, devoted to justice to the point of your characters having no personal life, wading through a river of blood and gore?

 

Just wondering.

 

For the record I'm more Wonder Woman first season.

 

I'm Bronze Age with my heroes all the way. I started reading comics during the Bronze Age and it is what I like.

 

That being said, I do consider Rorschach and Nite Owl to be heroes. Many real life heroes lives outside of their shining moments have been complete train wrecks. IMHO the fact that the guy who ran into the burning building to rescue children might be 5 months behind paying child support for his own children doesn't change that fact he ran into the burning building for someone else's kids.

[Querysphinx]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

As for that' date=' I get enough in real life. Superheroes are an inherently unrealistic genre so I never understoood attempts to make their comic books and games "realistic." In reality, Batman would be shot dead the first time he tried to take on a gang of thugs and we'd have a small news item on page B2 about it.[/quote']

 

There's a difference between "realistic" and "complex."

[Kap]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

There's a difference between "realistic" and "complex."

 

You chose to define neither for purposes of this discussion, so please elaborate.

 

As for "complex," super heroes are an inherently simple genre rooted in the idea that you can solve problems by putting on tights and beating up other folks in tights, and somehow not be accountable for taking the law into your own hands. In a complex super hero game or comic book, Batman would be sitting in a penitentiary in the same cell block as the Joker.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

You chose to define neither for purposes of this discussion, so please elaborate.

 

As for "complex," super heroes are an inherently simple genre rooted in the idea that you can solve problems by putting on tights and beating up other folks in tights, and somehow not be accountable for taking the law into your own hands. In a complex super hero game or comic book, Batman would be sitting in a penitentiary in the same cell block as the Joker.

 

All narratives are unrealistic. Romances don't end with people living happily ever after; excessive pride leads to tragically flawed heroes living in retirement in Miami and gardening while waiting for their grandchildren to call; action heroes die; scrappy underdog teams lose. And don't even get me started on musical comedies. When have you ever seen a bunch of people drop everything and start dancing in the streets to a disembodied musical accompaniment?

 

So, yes, the superhero premise is unrealistic. Sure, it's fun to deconstruct it once and while, or on the other hand use it as a hook for a wargame that boils down to beating up giant robots in the street. But once you've had your fun, you may find that you're developing a taste for other kinds of stories, The kinds of stories that you can tell in, say, a musical comedy without getting rid of the big dance number.

 

So tell those stories. Take your heroes to Tunnelworld; give them a time machine; let them deal with their clone. Maybe the results are romps. Maybe they're not. A time machine can be used to explore our relationship with the past. Tunnelworld can resonate with the complications of adolescence, above all, a teen's fumbling progression into the world of love and sexuality. A clone can let you explore individuality and morality. Powers? We can use them as a metaphor for addictive behaviour and the psychological disturbances that lie behind it. Mutants? Racism. Science and magic? Time to get Very Serious about faith. Secret identities? They're the core story of American fiction going back to Natty Bumppo.

 

You want simple stories? Why not? Complicated stories? They work, too. Fun will be had by all.

 

Which, and I'll concede in advance that I'm pretty crazy for thinking this way, is the point of the exercise.

[Kap]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

All narratives are unrealistic. Romances don't end with people living happily ever after; excessive pride leads to tragically flawed heroes living in retirement in Miami and gardening while waiting for their grandchildren to call; action heroes die; scrappy underdog teams lose. And don't even get me started on musical comedies. When have you ever seen a bunch of people drop everything and start dancing in the streets to a disembodied musical accompaniment?

 

So, yes, the superhero premise is unrealistic. Sure, it's fun to deconstruct it once and while, or on the other hand use it as a hook for a wargame that boils down to beating up giant robots in the street. But once you've had your fun, you may find that you're developing a taste for other kinds of stories, The kinds of stories that you can tell in, say, a musical comedy without getting rid of the big dance number.

 

So tell those stories. Take your heroes to Tunnelworld; give them a time machine; let them deal with their clone. Maybe the results are romps. Maybe they're not. A time machine can be used to explore our relationship with the past. Tunnelworld can resonate with the complications of adolescence, above all, a teen's fumbling progression into the world of love and sexuality. A clone can let you explore individuality and morality. Powers? We can use them as a metaphor for addictive behaviour and the psychological disturbances that lie behind it. Mutants? Racism. Science and magic? Time to get Very Serious about faith. Secret identities? They're the core story of American fiction going back to Natty Bumppo.

 

You want simple stories? Why not? Complicated stories? They work, too. Fun will be had by all.

 

Which, and I'll concede in advance that I'm pretty crazy for thinking this way, is the point of the exercise.

 

Did you mean to say "fiction is unrealistic"? Newspapers are narrative, as are police and coroner reports. They tend to be realistic. I work with them daily.

 

- Kap

[Cassandra]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

I really enjoyed the DC Animated Universe, finding them Silver Age in tone. Batman is as hard edge as I get, someone who is willing to do what it takes to get the job done, but never kills.

 

I think the appeal of Marvel was that is showed the human side of superheroes. They were also inconsistant about the popularity of superheroes in society. The Fantastic Four and the Avengers have the support of the public, but the X-Men are hated? If you get your powers accidentally you are trustworthy but if you are born with them you're aren't?

 

I have seen both the Watchmen Motion Comic, and the Director's Cut of the Movie. None of the characters seemed very heroic. The movie was violent like the comic, and displayed the graphic novels cynical nature.

 

The problem I have with the Watchmen is that it's a relic of it's time. Written in the 1980s. it buys into a feeling of hopelessness as nuclear war was seen to be inevitable.

 

But Silk Spectre looked good in the costume.

[megaplayboy]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

I'm of the view that both DKR and Watchmen don't age well. Fixating on them as the new "gold standard" for the Iron Age was likely a huge error, imo.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

Did you mean to say "fiction is unrealistic"? Newspapers are narrative, as are police and coroner reports. They tend to be realistic. I work with them daily.

 

- Kap

 

Yes. All stories are narratives, and all narratives are unrealistic. Bridging the gap between narrative and lived reality is kind of what our brains are for.

[Kap]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

Yes. All stories are narratives' date=' and all narratives are unrealistic. Bridging the gap between narrative and lived reality is kind of what our brains are for.[/quote']

 

I don't agree with your statement that all narratives are unrealistic in the first place. That's right up there with people who state reality is subjective. Please explicate with convincing evidence.

[Kap]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

I'm of the view that both DKR and Watchmen don't age well. Fixating on them as the new "gold standard" for the Iron Age was likely a huge error' date=' imo.[/quote']

 

I didn't care for "Dark Knight Returns" when it was new, much less now. I liked "Watchmen" but wouldn't want a steady diet of it. 12 issues was plenty.

[Kap]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

I think the appeal of Marvel was that is showed the human side of superheroes. They were also inconsistant about the popularity of superheroes in society. The Fantastic Four and the Avengers have the support of the public, but the X-Men are hated? If you get your powers accidentally you are trustworthy but if you are born with them you're aren't?

 

Mutants were a separate "race" (calling themselves "Homo superior" didn't help their cause). It was a parable for bigotry. It made perfect sense that those who hated mutants were not logically consistent because those who hate another race aren't known for their logical reasons why.

[Clonus]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

 

I think the appeal of Marvel was that is showed the human side of superheroes. They were also inconsistant about the popularity of superheroes in society. The Fantastic Four and the Avengers have the support of the public, but the X-Men are hated? If you get your powers accidentally you are trustworthy but if you are born with them you're aren't?

 

As I've said before: Yeah, that would be as silly as liking "self-made men" and lottery winners but hating people with inherited wealth. Oh wait. People actually do that. Besides the mutants aren't doing themselves any favours by calling themselves "homo superior", and forming "racially" exclusive militias that fight in semisecret over control of the world.

[Ozymandias]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

I didn't care for "Dark Knight Returns" when it was new' date=' much less now. I liked "Watchmen" but wouldn't want a steady diet of it. 12 issues was plenty.[/quote']

 

^Pretty much my feelings on these books as well.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

I don't agree with your statement that all narratives are unrealistic in the first place. That's right up there with people who state reality is subjective. Please explicate with convincing evidence.

 

Words are symbolic referents. Reality isn't symbolic. It's real. Stringing words together can create statements about reality but still requires interpretation. The radical argument is that interpretation is impossible. (Argue with Quine here, or take it up with the condensed version here.) I honestly don't know anyone who has argued that it is somehow not necessary, that words are just reality. The real question is whether there's anything but stories we tell ourselves.

 

So I assume that you agree with me that that kind of think is butt-headed pretension. So let's see if we can salvage all the stuff that this line of argument brings into question. (reality, science, human rights, all that good stuff).

 

Now, when I talk about how, say, a coroner's report is a narrative, I'm gesturing in the direction of postmodernism, to be sure. You've probably heard that postmodernism is the root of all relativist evil. On the contrary. I'm going to use it, or, more accurately, gesture towards a way in which smart people use it, to save reality, all that good stuff.

 

Imagine a coroner's report written by someone who literally has no idea about what he's supposed to write. It ends up being an account of everything in the morgue. Or, better yet, a complete sensory reproduction of everything in the morgue. The coroner, in contrast, understands that you don't need to know whether the floor of the operating room is tiled or linoleum. This fact is left out of the report. "Irrelevant" facts are left out. This, of course, is an act of trust. A competent coroner knows that it doesn't matter whether the door of those slidey-drawer things is grey or olive and leaves that out. An incompetent one doesn't realise that the bullet hole in the subject's head is a sign that he's been shot, and leaves that out. A reader who doesn't know that people's heads look like (work with me here; I'm trying to be amusing. I could research anatomy and come up with something more convincing) wouldn't even know that the bullet hole is missing.

 

So there's a story, and a narrator behind it, and am audience for the story. That's true, by the tenets of postmodernism, of any statement we make in words about the reality that we perceive in the world. We now have a reply to the idea that language was purely conventional. We can reconnect the descriptive speech act to the reality that it purports to describe. It is a story, with a narrator and an audience. Focussing on this, we can detect the distortions and elisions and penetrate to the reality behind the statement.

 

So, all stories are composed in this way. You have your reality, your narrator, your audience. The speech act communicates what the narrator thinks is important about the reality that the narrator perceives to the audience. Interesting things happen at each step. So far, so good.

 

Fiction is an especially interesting kind of story, because it reproduces a reality that isn't really real. It lies to you, in other words. Some people think that fiction is ever so much more serious if you restrict your lies to a certain set of lies. No unrealistic time machines, they say, on the one hand. On the other, they ask, "where's the chorus of singers and dancers commenting on the way that the action develops the Olympian gods' plans for humanity."

 

Yeah. Can't please you artsy snooty people, ain't gonna try. We live in a fabulously exciting, technologically complex world. There are all kinds of things we need to think about that our ancestors didn't. (Like the relationship of narrative to reality, for one! Recursion, dude!) We've developed a set of idioms that do that. Costumed street criminals. Cyborgs. Clones. Dinosaurs. Time machines. Space ships. Dimensions. Cities at the centre of reality. The only genre fiction that allows North Americans to deal with all of those idioms is the superhero genre.

 

Why? Because superheroes are protagonists. In our personal stories, we are all protagonists dealing actively with the world. Those stories are vital to us, because they are the scripts that guide us in our dealings with reality. You want stories that guide us in dealing with a world that contains all the idioms we need to deal with this complicated world? That's superhero stories. We're all superheroes in our minds. Not in the trivial way of being able to lift buildings or fire energy blasts, but in the sense of aspiring to the status of protagonist in a complicated world.

[Kap]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

I appreciate that and would give you "rep" if I knew how, but it doesn't make the coroner's report unrealistic. You stated that all narratives are unrealistic. Realism doesn't mean you have to include the color of the drawers in which the corpses reside, and how many hairs are on the jacket's sleeve. Missing or excluded information doesn't equal unrealism. Facts can be left out and a narrative can still be realistic. As in the case of the coroner's report.

 

In fact, the coroner's report can be downright wrong but still realistic.

 

Anyway...I think we were waiting on someone to tell us the difference between "complex" and "realistic" with regard to super hero games/stories.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: From Superfriends to Watchmen: The Extremes of Superheroes

 

And don't even get me started on musical comedies. When have you ever seen a bunch of people drop everything and start dancing in the streets to a disembodied musical accompaniment?

 

Surely you've heard of flash mobs...

 

Secret identities? They're the core story of American fiction going back to Natty Bumppo.

 

?? Natty Bumppo didn't have a Secret ID.

 

You want simple stories? Why not? Complicated stories? They work, too. Fun will be had by all.

 

Which, and I'll concede in advance that I'm pretty crazy for thinking this way, is the point of the exercise.

 

Hear hear!