Demonic Swarm

[phoenix240]

This power is for an NPC named Hellraiser who's power (as you might expect) is to temporarily merge his current dimension with "Hell" and create various destructive and horrific effects. One of them is to summon a swarm of minor demons, imp like creatures with claws, fangs and a bloodthirsty attitude that attack everything within a certain locale for as long as they last. I didn't want to write this up as a Summon since the creatures can only do one thing and there are dozens of them per summoning. Running them as fully fleshed out combatants would be tedious. OTOH, they aren't simply a sfx. They can be fought, even destroyed by characters without attcking Hellraiser himself.

 

I was thinking of possibly using a Continuous Uncontrolled area of effect attack?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

I was thinking of possibly using a Continuous Uncontrolled area of effect attack?

 

Perhaps Limit it with a Physical Manifestation, so that characters can attack and destroy it?

[Zeropoint]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Seems to me, that's exactly the kind of thing that "Physical Manifestation" is FOR.

[phoenix240]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

That's a good idea but is there anyway to make Physnical Manifestation more durable? The way I envision the power as working is that swarm takes some time to "kill" per invocation since there's a high number of demons that compose it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Have you looked at the Swarm rules in the Bestiary?

[Christopher]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

That's a good idea but is there anyway to make Physnical Manifestation more durable? The way I envision the power as working is that swarm takes some time to "kill" per invocation since there's a high number of demons that compose it.

If you don't have the bestiary:

APG II has rules for more detailed Foci (including more durable ones and ones that can act on their own), they can be easily adapted to Material Manifestation (in the end, all they do is detail how the Limtiation values is modified).

 

My natural Idea for Swarms is:

Automaton with:

Desolidifcation (Affected by Area of Effect Attacks), Can't pass through Solid Objects.

No Stun, No Hit Locations and No Bleeding are of course naturally part of it.

The immunity to mind controll is also obvious, but you might want to include a mindclass anyway (after all, an Area of Effect Mind Controll would work...)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Well, IIRC, continuous uncontrolled should have a reasonable common way to turn it off. Why not simply rule that the way to turn it off is to make X number of successful attacks against CV Y doing Z BODY damage?

 

That way those in the area remain subject to the attack until the turn-off condition is achieved...it is a bit of bureaucracy but not huge - a tick each time a relevant attack is made. I think that area effect and autofire attacks should make the switch off easier...

 

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Well, IIRC, continuous uncontrolled should have a reasonable common way to turn it off. Why not simply rule that the way to turn it off is to make X number of successful attacks against CV Y doing Z BODY damage?

 

That way those in the area remain subject to the attack until the turn-off condition is achieved...it is a bit of bureaucracy but not huge - a tick each time a relevant attack is made. I think that area effect and autofire attacks should make the switch off easier...

 

 

Doc

How would that interact with having a Damage Shield? Logically the demons/imps wouldn't attack you. And if they would, wouldn't the swarm take damage.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

How would that interact with having a Damage Shield? Logically the demons/imps wouldn't attack you. And if they would' date=' wouldn't the swarm take damage.[/quote']

 

Well, the demons/imps logically do attack you (if I am reading this right as the damage shield holder is subject to the attack) then the damage shield would have the opportunity to inflict damage. It is a bit of handwavium but it follows the logic of the power.

 

Doc

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

A lot of nice ideas but I still think building it as a swarm creature is the simplest/most straight forward. buy up it's size to fill the area you want, give it Desolidification, can't pass through solid objects, doesn't protect against damage. Than give it an AoE attack equal to its size with personal immunity and if you want Constant so anyone the swarm surrounds/envelopes will get attacked by it. You don't have to give it high defenses, but give it 50 or 70% damage reduction that doesn't apply to AoE attacks to represent firing at or striking the swarm is only hitting/killing some of the critters. Season to taste. You can even add fun stuff like once it reaches half body it's DR increases from 50 to 75% to represent the swarm "thinning out" as some of them die making it harder to hit any individual member of the swarm since they are not as clustered.

[Asperion]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Here is a simple(?) solution that might just work:

 

RKA, AoE (Any), Constant, Personal Immun, Extra Seg, -1/4 Inacc, Not vs Holy Barriers, Phys Manifestation

 

The idea is that the character calls forth the swarm that will blindly attack anyone and anything that gets in their way (except the caster).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Physical Manifestation does not work well here. A single punch that does 1 Body through whatever defence the swarm has will take the whole power down, which does not seem right for what you describe.

 

By 'inaccurate', I presume you mean 'non-selective', and if so, you might as well summon actual demons: you are going to be making just as many attack rolls.

 

Try this:

 

Hell Swarm: Blast 3d6, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Uncontrolled (Destroyed if area sanctified or whole area subject to an AoE that does at least 3 Body; +1/2), Area Of Effect (32m Radius; +1) (64 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Extra Time (Extra Segment, Only to Activate, -1/4)

64 Active points, 32 Real

That does 3d6 penetrating damage to everyone in the area (or, for the same price, 1d6 RKA penetrating), which is enough to be a real nuisance to everyone who does not have impenetrable defences, without being instantly lethal.

 

Alternatively you could, instead of a damage effect, make it a suppress to stun and movement powers: these things swarm you and slow you down, eventually overwhelming you with sheer numbers so that you are held immobile and, eventually, pass out.

 

Note that the description should perhaps have the demons popping into and out of existence as part of the power description so that PCs do not think of the individual 'demons' as targets.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Ooh! You made me think - naughty Sean - should not be thinking on a Monday moring!!

 

Would the idea of attacks from swarms of imps be made even greater by compounding the power so that the dice effect gets greater with lower DCVs?

 

So first D6 affects everyone, second affects those with DCV lower than 10 and the third affects those lower than 8??

 

That would capture the idea that the faster, more agile characters get hit less by those swarming imps???

 

 

Doc

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Perhaps Limit it with a Physical Manifestation' date=' so that characters can attack and destroy it?[/quote']

 

Yeah; this is exactly what I did on the "Summoner" character Mythic several years ago. All of his "summons" are some other effect with Physical Manifestation.

 

I don't recall all the details, but it was a character proposal for a campaign I was running on HERO Central. I didn't want to deal with a real summoner in a play by post and have to keep track of a bunch of extra character sheets so I re-spun the character into this format as a counter-proposal. I thought it was pretty cool, but the player was not amused and walked.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Ooh! You made me think - naughty Sean - should not be thinking on a Monday moring!!

 

Would the idea of attacks from swarms of imps be made even greater by compounding the power so that the dice effect gets greater with lower DCVs?

 

So first D6 affects everyone, second affects those with DCV lower than 10 and the third affects those lower than 8??

 

That would capture the idea that the faster, more agile characters get hit less by those swarming imps???

 

 

Doc

 

You could build the power as 3 separate 1d6 penetrating AoE attacks that apply to different DCVs: 1d6 vs DCV 7 or less, 1d6 vs DCV 9 or less and 1d6 vs DCV 11 or less, which means that more agile characters (or characters concentrating on defence) take less or no damage.

 

Nice idea!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Yeah; this is exactly what I did on the "Summoner" character Mythic several years ago. All of his "summons" are some other effect with Physical Manifestation.

 

I don't recall all the details, but it was a character proposal for a campaign I was running on HERO Central. I didn't want to deal with a real summoner in a play by post and have to keep track of a bunch of extra character sheets so I re-spun the character into this format as a counter-proposal. I thought it was pretty cool, but the player was not amused and walked.

 

The trouble with Physical Manifestation is that it is only a limitation if there is some problem with having a physical manifestation. This means that, generally, it is not a limitation at all for instant powers, like most attack powers, or instant movement powers like teleport.

 

Also there may be an issue with the "Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Change Slots; -1/4" limitation on the big MP: the slots all cost END anyway so this should be a +1/4 advantage.

[Christopher]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

The trouble with Physical Manifestation is that it is only a limitation if there is some problem with having a physical manifestation. This means that, generally, it is not a limitation at all for instant powers, like most attack powers, or instant movement powers like teleport.

 

Also there may be an issue with the "Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Change Slots; -1/4" limitation on the big MP: the slots all cost END anyway so this should be a +1/4 advantage.

Also, powers liek Force wall or Entangle propably don't qualyfy for Physical manifestation, unless that is in addtion to the normal destructabiltiy and the Physical Manifestation is weaker (and protected) then the effect.

 

Buther otherwise thsi is definitely a good idea for a summoner.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

The trouble with Physical Manifestation is that it is only a limitation if there is some problem with having a physical manifestation. This means that' date=' generally, it is not a limitation at all for instant powers, like most attack powers, or instant movement powers like teleport. [/quote']

 

If there was an instant power with physical manifestation that fit into the design philosophy of the character and worked, I would rule that, for the reduced cost, opponents could abort to an attack action to prevent the power taking effect. For example, summoning a swarm of bees as an SFX for an energy blast. The target could abort his next phase to try and destroy the bees with his flame gun. To me that maintains the feel of the power while providing a justification for why the summoners EB is cheaper than anyone elses.

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

If there was an instant power with physical manifestation that fit into the design philosophy of the character and worked, I would rule that, for the reduced cost, opponents could abort to an attack action to prevent the power taking effect. For example, summoning a swarm of bees as an SFX for an energy blast. The target could abort his next phase to try and destroy the bees with his flame gun. To me that maintains the feel of the power while providing a justification for why the summoners EB is cheaper than anyone elses.

 

Doc

 

That is OK if the opponent HAS a flame gun. If all he has is a six shooter, he is going to struggle to make any logical impact on the power. In any event there is a lot of cross-over between PM and SFX. I might rule, for example, that the bees can not successfully attack anyone with certain types of damage shield, but it seems more logical to me to use a -1/4 limited power for that sort of thing than PM, which SOUNDS right, but is mechanically quite wrong. (Bear in mind you probably need to do 10 BODY to deactivate a 50 point 'swarm of bees attack' but it is only really logical to use an AoE attack, which would only, which for the same active points probably would not do enough damage.

 

I have started a different thread on PM so as not to de-rail this one...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

The trouble with Physical Manifestation is that it is only a limitation if there is some problem with having a physical manifestation. This means that, generally, it is not a limitation at all for instant powers, like most attack powers, or instant movement powers like teleport.

 

The attack powers are Lingering, not instant.

 

The teleports are in the smaller pool which has Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4). The intended effect of the teleport is that the character "summons" the mythical creature, which goes to work for a Turn "working their magic" during which time they can be attacked and destroyed; if they are the teleport fizzles.

 

Also there may be an issue with the "Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Change Slots; -1/4" limitation on the big MP: the slots all cost END anyway so this should be a +1/4 advantage.

 

Actually they don't cost END as the entire pool has Reduced END: 0 END for +1/2

 

So the intended composite effect is, the character pays the normal END cost to switch the slot, and if they keep the slot toggled it costs no further END to continuously reuse it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Also, powers liek Force wall or Entangle propably don't qualyfy for Physical manifestation, unless that is in addtion to the normal destructabiltiy and the Physical Manifestation is weaker (and protected) then the effect.

 

Yes, this is true in the general sense. I was stretching the rules a bit to try to model a "cool" idea without resorting to purely custom mechanics. The rules are there to serve me, not the other way around, and I'll bend them if I think it is needful.

 

 

The intent here was to create a construct, like the "Troll" from Grasp of the Troll, independent of its effect.

 

Grasp Of The Troll: Entangle 4d6, 6 DEF, Backlash (+1/2) (75 Active Points); Ground Based (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), 1/2 Phase To Change Slots (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (Each Slots Manifestation Has 15 DEF 0 BODY) (-1/4)

Notes: Summons a big ugly Troll to scoop up an opponent and squeeze them; the harder the target squirms, the harder the Troll squeezes back (Backlash).

 

 

So, the idea was an entangle is put on a target, and the SFX of that entangle is a big ugly hairy troll with giant hands is summoned and ambles over to grab the target. For the target, they're in the entangle and interact with the entangle. But their buddies can just attack the troll, ignoring the mechanics of the entangle; if the physical manifestation is destroyed directly the troll is banished. If the entangled character breaks the entangle they get out of it and technically the "troll" should disappear, but the handwave here is if Mythic keeps the multipower slot toggled the "troll" remains "summoned" / in play and Mythic can make a new attack with the entangle on his next turn and the same sfx troll manifestation will amble over to the target and grab them.

 

 

 

 

The Giant is similar, though admittedly it's more of a gimme power.

 

Aegis Of The Giant: Force Wall (15 PD; 1" long and 2" tall) (Opaque Sight Group), Uncontrolled (Lasts 1 Turn; +1/2) (74 Active Points); Ground Based (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), 1/2 Phase To Change Slots (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (Each Slots Manifestation Has 15 DEF 0 BODY) (-1/4)

Notes: Summon a 10 foot tall Giant, who can interpose himself in various ways. Sadly the Giant can't stand up to energy damage.

 

 

So, I set the PD the same as the DEF on purpose, and in this case the Force Wall actually weakens the Physical manifestation as it has no Energy Defense at all where as the Physical Manifestation is DEF based and otherwise could resist energy. Thus any energy attack at all will scare the Giant off and "banish" it. So, basically, I chose to put it in there to give the character a useful effect because it is self-gimped, and seemed like a fun / evocative ability.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

The attack powers are Lingering, not instant.

 

The teleports are in the smaller pool which has Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4). The intended effect of the teleport is that the character "summons" the mythical creature, which goes to work for a Turn "working their magic" during which time they can be attacked and destroyed; if they are the teleport fizzles.

 

I like the build- it is a really interesting way to realise the concept. I am not sure though how PM/lingering works with (say) the Dragon Breath as there are no activation restrictions other than the time to change slots. If your dragon gets whacked, so long as you have not changed slots, you can just activate the power again. I may be missing something though.

 

 

Actually they don't cost END as the entire pool has Reduced END: 0 END for +1/2

 

So the intended composite effect is, the character pays the normal END cost to switch the slot, and if they keep the slot toggled it costs no further END to continuously reuse it.

 

That makes sense - had not noted the '0 END'!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Actually, he does -- he drops to 1/2 DCV if he has to reactivate the effect. Situationally, he also may have switched slots which would be an obvious problem for him given the build.

[phoenix240]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Thanks for all the suggestions. You've all been very helpful.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Demonic Swarm

 

Thanks for all the suggestions. You've all been very helpful.

 

You take that back!