Ockham's Spoon Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I find this interesting primarily as a technical achievement, muscle-powered flight. Previous inventors failed apparently because they could not control the wings properly with just their arms; there is more to it than just flapping. It also occurs to me that it gives some basis for the wingspan that would be required by a race of avian humanoids. Granted they might have hollow bones or something to lighten the load, but that would almost be mandatory just to achieve efficient flight (barring a low-G planet). As cool as this is, any kind of decent flight time with this gear would be exhausting. www.humanbirdwings.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Re: Human bird wings A dense atmosphere might also help here, but of course that might conflict with the "low-gravity" idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Re: Human bird wings It's a hoax. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Re: Human bird wings It's a hoax. Sorry. Can you provide evidence supporting that position? The video of the actual flight looked pretty convincing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Onassiss Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Re: Human bird wings Can you provide evidence supporting that position? The video of the actual flight looked pretty convincing. Snopes. Always check snopes. http://www.snopes.com/photos/technology/humanbirdwings.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Re: Human bird wings I find this interesting primarily as a technical achievement, muscle-powered flight. Previous inventors failed apparently because they could not control the wings properly with just their arms; there is more to it than just flapping. It also occurs to me that it gives some basis for the wingspan that would be required by a race of avian humanoids. Granted they might have hollow bones or something to lighten the load, but that would almost be mandatory just to achieve efficient flight (barring a low-G planet). As cool as this is, any kind of decent flight time with this gear would be exhausting. www.humanbirdwings.net The biggest problem with Human powered flapping wings is that the Human body doesn't have enough strength across the sternum to actually flap the wings that are long enough. Also birds have control over the trailing feathers and have a tail that counteracts the tendency for their wings to cause them to pitch forward. There are mathmatical formula that will tell you minimum wingspan needed to lift a certain weight. BTW the Video is totally faked and the creator has admitted that it's a hoax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Re: Human bird wings Proof that it's totally faked. Also if you have even seen a bird flap it's wings, it was VERY clear that the wings weren't working correctly. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/03/analysis-of-the-human-birdwings/ http://gizmodo.com/5895235/cgi-experts-say-flying-bird-man-is-fake http://gizmodo.com/5895638/flying-bird-man-admits-flying-bird-man-is-fake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Re: Human bird wings Proof that it's totally faked. Also if you have even seen a bird flap it's wings, it was VERY clear that the wings weren't working correctly. Hmm, something did seem "off" to me, but I couldnt pinpoint it. That must be it. (I've watched plenty of birds in flight- I get a fascination out of it, actually- in my day) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Re: Human bird wings Man, reality sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Re: Human bird wings Hmm, something did seem "off" to me, but I couldnt pinpoint it. I didn't spot it as a hoax, but I did wonder about how the wings create lift when their behavior seemed symmetrical about the horizontal plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Onassiss Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Re: Human bird wings I didn't spot it as a hoax' date=' but I did wonder about how the wings create lift when their behavior seemed symmetrical about the horizontal plane.[/quote'] And now you have your answer. Excellent observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Re: Human bird wings I didn't spot it as a hoax' date=' but I did wonder about how the wings create lift when their behavior seemed symmetrical about the horizontal plane.[/quote'] Well, unlike most here, me no good at thinking along technical terms. Damn it, I'm a historian not a scientist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ockham's Spoon Posted March 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Re: Human bird wings Well my apologies for spreading false technological break-throughs. Thanks to all who caught the hoax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Re: Human bird wings Hoax or not it's still an appropriate thing to post on this board. One of my favorite scenes in One of Heinlein's YA books was the chapter that had the kids all flying in a special dome on the Moon. They had flight suits that I imagine would be similar to the one in the hoax video. It was a fun thing. Perhaps someday if some form of Contra-Gravity becomes reality, People might be able to don flight suits and fly by flapping wings. It's a common fantasy. Who knows perhaps some inventor will build a set of wings that would actually allow for flapping flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Re: Human bird wings I've thought about this a bit more, and come to the conclusion that my initial thoughts didn't go far enough: the wings don't have to create lift with their flapping motion, they only need to create thrust. As long as they have a positive angle of attack and enough airspeed, they'll generate lift by deflecting the airstream. You can get toy ornithopters built to look like birds that don't have the sophisticated motion of real bird wings, and THEY fly just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Re: Human bird wings I've thought about this a bit more' date=' and come to the conclusion that my initial thoughts didn't go far enough: the wings don't have to create lift with their flapping motion, they only need to create thrust. As long as they have a positive angle of attack and enough airspeed, they'll generate lift by deflecting the airstream. You can get toy ornithopters built to look like birds that don't have the sophisticated motion of real bird wings, and THEY fly just fine.[/quote'] The difference is the mass to wingspan ratio. And the problem that the more mass you have, the more wingspan you need, wich means you get again more mass. And you have to move the wings mass - wich our humans arms aren't nearly strong enough for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Re: Human bird wings The difference is the mass to wingspan ratio. And the problem that the more mass you have, the more wingspan you need, wich means you get again more mass. Indeed, the square-cube law strikes again: double a flyer's size, and they get eight times as heavy but only four times the wing area, doubling the wing loading. That's why a hummingbird's wings are tiny and an albatross's are huge, compared to the bird's body. And you have to move the wings mass - wich our humans arms aren't nearly strong enough for. True, but the contraption depicted in the hoax was supposed to merely be CONTROLLED by the flapping motion of the arms, and powered by a motor of some sort. I'm no aeronautical engineer, so my opinion here isn't worth much, but I don't see why the basic idea is fundamentally unworkable. We know that we can build working ornithopters, and we know that something light enough to be backpackable can support a human in flight (hang gliders). I'm sure there's a large number of difficulties with the concept, but I don't feel brave enough to say that it can't be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Re: Human bird wings Well my apologies for spreading false technological break-throughs. Thanks to all who caught the hoax. Believe me, I was extremely disappointed to learn it was faked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barwickian Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Re: Human bird wings One of my favorite scenes in One of Heinlein's YA books was the chapter that had the kids all flying in a special dome on the Moon. They had flight suits that I imagine would be similar to the one in the hoax video. It was a fun thing. The Menace From Earth. One of his short stories, and one of my favourites. The flying depended on two factors: the Moon's low gravity, and the fact that there were basically flying in an airwell designed to aid the colony's atmosphere circulation. I also remember that had restricted-movement wings for beginners and more advanced wings for experts. Holly, the heroine, made a brief reappearance at the end of The Number of the Beast - she'd fulfilled her ambitions of becoming a starship designer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Re: Human bird wings I'm no aeronautical engineer' date=' so my opinion here isn't worth much, but I don't see why the basic idea is fundamentally unworkable. We know that we can build working ornithopters, and we know that something light enough to be backpackable can support a human in flight (hang gliders). I'm sure there's a large number of difficulties with the concept, but I don't feel brave enough to say that it can't be done.[/quote'] I wonder if you could design a hang glider with a gentle flapping capability for gaining altitude once you're already soaring? Doesn't seem very farfetched. I think the trick would be scaling the power source. A man-size weight plus the weight of the wings will need a huge wing surface area. The power needed to flap wings that large would probably require enough equipment to double that weight. If we cut that down drastically - say some streamlined magnetic driver with power beamed from an external laser - would it be workable? There were 200-lb. pteranodons, as I recall, but I don't know if or how well they actually flew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Re: Human bird wings The bird example usually forgets that not only thier weight is optimised for flight, but also thier skeletons construction and the way thier muscles work/apply force. And their bodies are aerodynamic, down to the feathers. Sure, putting the energy source on the ground always helps with the weight. But I think the wings weight/air resistance while flapping is the bigger issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Re: Human bird wings If we assume high-tech ultralight materials, is there a theoretical upper limit to how big a flapping object can be to fly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Re: Human bird wings If we assume high-tech ultralight materials' date=' is there a theoretical upper limit to how big a flapping object can be to fly?[/quote'] It only depends how much flapping power you can exert against the air. Actually I think flapping is extreme inefficient. Just as an comparsion: - Our airplanes actually use a form of "propelled gliding". They get speed from thier turbines/rotor, then use that velocity to let the gliding effects carry it up. - Helicopters are closest to how a bird works. They create upward force, by presssing air downward. - with wings you have to expend energy to get them back into "ready to apply force position" and unless we find some way to drastically reduce the air resistance while getting them ready again, that will actually apply downward force just to get ready for the next "flap". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Re: Human bird wings The bird example usually forgets that not only their weight is optimized for flight, but also their skeletons construction and the way their muscles work/apply force. And their bodies are aerodynamic, down to the feathers. Sure, putting the energy source on the ground always helps with the weight. But I think the wings weight/air resistance while flapping is the bigger issue. Right, there's a reason that there's a lot of meat on a bird's "breast". A bird a ton of muscle applied across the front of the rib cage, with a HUGE attachment bone. It's what I was trying to get above. The human body really doesn't have enough strength across the breast to flap wings properly. Mechanically flapping wings adds complexity to the aircraft, which adds weight, which decreases payload amount. You can increase the wing's surface area, but then you have to deal with issue in that (Weight, making sure there's enough structure so that the wing doesn't break). Also flapping wings need to be able to be strong enough to deal with all of the extra stress of a flapping structure. There IS a reason that we use fixed stiff wings on our flying craft. Above a certain point they just scale better, than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted April 6, 2012 Report Share Posted April 6, 2012 Re: Human bird wings If we assume high-tech ultralight materials' date=' is there a theoretical upper limit to how big a flapping object can be to fly?[/quote'] I assume that you are talking about a machine that has a 200lb Human as it's pilot? Because there have been both Birds and Pterosaurs that got as big as a Cesna (ie Personal aircraft) and flew just fine. There have been flapping Pterosaur models around 7' wingspan that flew very well. So yes one could build a machine that flapped it's wings and could fly. The big problem is building a machine with flapping wings that can fly and could carry a person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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