Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

[Ghost Archer]

Problem:

Character 1 is a huge (i.e. 8 feet tall), hulking (yeah, like the Hulk), not very attractive (as in non-human) individual who would like the opportunity to have a beer with his buddy without causing the innocent to be trampled by people running in terror.

 

Tools:

Character 2 is a great guy who happens to have some pretty good powers of 'Illusion'. These are NOT mental powers.

 

Objective:

A power that can create the illusion that Character 1 is a normal looking kinda fellow.

 

Extenuating Factors:

Character 2's SFX in this case must be an Illusion.

 

Suggestions?

[Christopher]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

1. Shape shift, Useable by others (only on others/UAA is forbidden). A permanent alternative would be to let the Hulkling buy a Shape Shift with Limitations - maybe a magic Item that creates the Illusion for X amount once a day (Continuing Charges) - provided by his friend.

 

2. Use Images on the Hulkling. Might need Area of effect (normal images onyl covers 1m³ - wich is two default .5x.5x2 meter humans)

 

3. Cosmetic or Minor Transform (take away Distinctive Feature Complication), that heals fast (or perhaps is healed fast by the characters Regeneration).

 

The hieght could be a problem and the weight might also be off, but that is simply the limit of Illusions...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

1. Shape shift, Useable by others (only on others/UAA is forbidden). A permanent alternative would be to let the Hulkling buy a Shape Shift with Limitations - maybe a magic Item that creates the Illusion for X amount once a day (Continuing Charges) - provided by his friend.

 

 

Usable as an Attack is forbidden but Usable by Other is not. It could work as long as the Hulkling wants it to work.

 

Personally, I disagree with the listed rule against combining Shape Shift with UAA. It's a balance enforcement tactic only. In all other respects Images is just an alternative to Invisibility & Shape Shift that happens to be built vs. others to begin with. It can easily be converted to Self Only and then functions like those powers do except with a 'tunable' Automatic PERception roll vs. affected senses. There is no prohibition to adding UAA to Invisibility. Why should Shape Shift be any different? Because it's a powerful combo? If that's all it should just have a Stop Sign next to it in the rules.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Okay, allow me to expound . . .

 

Shapeshift: To me any use of shapeshifting is no long an illusion as it can physically alter Character 1 and is not what I am looking for.

 

Transform: Again, like Shapeshift, it physically alters character 1.

 

Image: This is ideally what I would like to use but I am confused about certain things that do not include 'sense' issues. The image needs to move along with the target. It needs to mimic their gestures and mannerisms. If character 2 produces this Illusion does he have to be constantly watching and adjusting the Illusion? Could Usable by Others be used to allow character 1 to control the Illusion or would this just give him the power to 'cast' the Illusion? I think the closest analogy I can think of is a 'holographic disguise belt'. Oh, I am not concerned with Limitations as I have a set in mind, nor am I concerned with 'cost' as I pretty much ignore it in favor of a power that is both well-designed and logically proper for the objective.

 

On Advantages:

I see from HD3 that 'mobile' cannot be used: "Mobile can only be applied to Powers which already affect an area." I was under the impression Images was by nature a 1" (2 meters for those of you utilizing a later Edition) Area.

 

As for the my second question concerning 'mimic gestures' would 'Conforming' be appropriate?

 

Another thing, what type of 'invisibility' would be required to prevent the origin of the power from being detected. Would any type of 'invisibility' be needed if UBO is used since the 'caster' and target would be the same?

[Christopher]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Okay, allow me to expound . . .

 

Shapeshift: To me any use of shapeshifting is no long an illusion as it can physically alter Character 1 and is not what I am looking for.

Then I think you should reconsider your point of view:

"Examples of Shape Shift include a character who can change his shape to copy other peoples’ features, a powerful illusion-spell that can change

a person’s appearance, or a character who can transform himself into many different inanimate objects." 6E1 277 on Shape Shift.

 

Shape Shift like all other powers does not Specify any SFX. It's about one being able to voluntarily take on another Shape as percieved by one or two sense. A Star Trek Holoemitter Disguise can easily be built as "Shape Shift, Sight and Touch". While the same piece of equipment to create a Landscape or idependent Scene would be built as "Images". In neitehr case any form of Physically Shifting Shape is involved.

A simple Sight Shift can easily disguise the Hulkling as "just a really big but normal guy". He would still smell, taste and feel like a giant green guy.

[Christopher]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Even a better example than Star Trek, this one is from chapiosn 6E and one of Witchcrafts "Lesser Witcheries" (her small, hard to change VPP):

"Seeming: With this spell, Witchcraft can alter her outward appearance.

Shape Shift (Sight and Hearing Groups, any humanoid form), Imitation. Total cost: 28 points."

 

Under the example Vehicles the Team Jet's options include:

"Disguise Systems: Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing, Touch, and Radio Groups, up to four predefined shapes), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (34 Active Points); IIF Bulky (-¾)"

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Here I have been playing this game for thirty years now and it is only in the last couple of weeks that I realized that in all those years I have never actually constructed an ‘Illusionist’. I have built shapeshifters and mentalists with mental illusion powers but never what I think of as an ‘illusionist’. Allow me to define and offer an example divorced from ‘game mechanics’ and not including things like David Copperfield. An Illusionist is one who utilizes light to manipulate what is seen by the audience. Now let me look at game mechanics.

 

Shape Shift: the actual physical modification of the subject i.e. David Banner into the Hulk that is perceivable by all.

 

Mental Illusion: the manipulation of a subject’s mental processes to induce them to believe David Banner has indeed become the Hulk without actually affecting David Banner in any way. Perceivable by one.

 

Image: the projection of an image that is superimposed and hides the subject’s physical appearance without physically altering the subject that is perceivable by all.

 

This is how I see these three alternate methods of changing a subject’s appearance and since this is the way I see it I consider powers to have the following limits.

 

Shape Shift: You cannot change the ‘sight’ appearance of the subject unless you also change the ‘touch’ appearance. Therefore Shape Shift will always include the ‘touch’ aspect in any ‘sight’ shift. These changes are perceivable to others.

 

Mental Illusions: pretty much anything goes with one mandatory rule, is must always be EGO/CON based. These are illusions that are all in the head of the subject and not perceivable by others. For a Mental Illusion to affect say a room full of people would require an Area of Effect.

 

Images: an alteration in light that changes the subject’s appearance but does not alter the subject’s physical structure. For that reason, I reject ‘touch’ Images since that either physically alters a subject in such a way that they now ‘feel’ like a mail box, i.e. Shape Shift, or would be entirely in the mind of the person under a Mental Illusion and hence not perceivable by anyone else.

 

This is the way I NOW define these three powers as the GM and because of this and based on the two characters that I am working with, Images would be the game mechanic I am looking for. My other questions hold however with regards to ‘conforming’, UBO and ‘mobile’.

 

Can/should ‘conforming’ be use to ensure the Image will react as the ‘wearer’, copy his movements etc.

 

Does UBO mean the ‘other’ user controls the Image effect or is merely allowed to create an Image of his own devising?

 

Since an Image is by definition a 1” (2 meters for those of you high on 6^th) Area of Effect why isn’t ‘mobile’ a legal Advantage as defined by HD3?

 

Note: To me Transformation is an entirely bigger can of worms I don't wish to open.

[Christopher]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Allow me to define and offer an example divorced from ‘game mechanics’ [...]

 

Shape Shift: the actual physical modification of the subject i.e. David Banner into the Hulk that is perceivable by all.

 

Mental Illusion: the manipulation of a subject’s mental processes to induce them to believe David Banner has indeed become the Hulk without actually affecting David Banner in any way. Perceivable by one.

 

Image: the projection of an image that is superimposed and hides the subject’s physical appearance without physically altering the subject that is perceivable by all.

That is far, far away from divorcing anything from anything.

 

Shape Shift:

Change Sensory Impressions that concern yourself

 

Mental Illusion:

Go into someones head, change his perception of reality.

 

Image:

Create a fake sensory impression. These may overlay normal impressions (like a new layer of paint).

[Ice9]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

In fact, Shape Shift is not even a physical change unless it includes the Touch group (and even then, it's not mandatory). For someone manipulating light, a Sight-group Shapeshift seems completely accurate.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

That is far, far away from divorcing anything from anything.

 

Shape Shift:

Change Sensory Impressions that concern yourself

 

Mental Illusion:

Go into someones head, change his perception of reality.

 

Image:

Create a fake sensory impression. These may overlay normal impressions (like a new layer of paint).

 

I was more interested in defining the actual terms and what they mean to me if removed from the context of the game.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Some random thoughts...

 

The writeup of Images in 6e1 on page 236 shows:

Characters often apply the Area Of Effect (usually Radius) Advantage to make large Images.

So technically, Images at its base level is NOT an AOE ability so Mobile is unnecessary.

 

HERO has many abilities that have a suggested default special effects but it is important to remember that they are NOT hard-coded into the mechanics.

The quote by Christopher from the 1st paragraph on Images from 6e1 is as clear example of this as I can think of.

 

Some questions regarding the use of this ability.

Do you want there to be a chance to see through the 'illusion' with an otherwise affected sense or would an unaffected sense be necessary?

If the former, then Images is the way to go. If the latter, then shape shift UBO is the way to go.

 

Does the power's owner have to maintain the ability or is it a fire & forget ability with a defined duration?

If the latter w/Images, then some form of continuing charge or Uncontrolled will need to be used.

If the latter w/Shape Shift UBO it is a good candidate for the Differing Modifiers construction method which allows an abilities owner to control some aspects and the grantee to control others.

For more on this see this old thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/61571-Build-Rune-Magic-Flight

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

In fact' date=' Shape Shift is not even a physical change unless it includes the Touch group (and even then, it's not mandatory). For someone manipulating light, a Sight-group Shapeshift seems completely accurate.[/quote']

 

Yo, Gamemaster here in this instance. Regardless of 'completely accurate' it is not how I see the effect I am looking for. Sure, its easy just to slap Shape Shift on it, cheap too, but the internal logic of my world ignores such things as 'completely accurate' and 'cheap too'. By your statement and ignoring game mechanics for pure semantics 'someone manipulating light' strikes me as 'Images' not 'Shape Shift' and that's kinda my point. Sorry but I guess I am a literalist in this . . . and pretty much everything else. Images: manipulating appearance through light without altering form. Shapeshift: manipulating form and hence altering appearance.

 

Now, what about 'conforming'?

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Some random thoughts...

 

The writeup of Images in 6e1 on page 236 shows:

 

So technically, Images at its base level is NOT an AOE ability so Mobile is unnecessary.

 

HERO has many abilities that have a suggested default special effects but it is important to remember that they are NOT hard-coded into the mechanics.

The quote by Christopher from the 1st paragraph on Images from 6e1 is as clear example of this as I can think of.

 

Some questions regarding the use of this ability.

Do you want there to be a chance to see through the 'illusion' with an otherwise affected sense or would an unaffected sense be necessary?

If the former, then Images is the way to go. If the latter, then shape shift UBO is the way to go.

 

Does the power's owner have to maintain the ability or is it a fire & forget ability with a defined duration?

If the latter w/Images, then some form of continuing charge or Uncontrolled will need to be used.

If the latter w/Shape Shift UBO it is a good candidate for the Differing Modifiers construction method which allows an abilities owner to control some aspects and the grantee to control others.

For more on this see this old thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/61571-Build-Rune-Magic-Flight

 

What is this 6e1 of which you speak?

 

Now, AOE vs Mobile. It is mobile by definition then? Would remove one troubling concept . . .

 

Okay, let's toss the Shape Shift out, I am beginning to hate it, but to answer your questions, yes, it is possible that someone might see through this disguise. As for the rest, it is not important for the purposes of this thread.

 

So, what are your ideas on how this Image works when placed on someone? See Images have always been a problem for me. I have always seen them as 'illusion of a party' that just runs in a random manner where the components as simply doing 'party thing'. What I am having trouble with is the illusion is covering someone, so it must move as that target does, contantly changing and unpredictable. I think that adding 'conforming' would allow the Illusion to act like a Goofy costume in Disneyland or is this unnecessarily complex. (Hey, I love complex, that's why I play Hero.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

What is this 6e1 of which you speak?

 

for what it's worth, the quoted text is virtually unchanged from 5th edition.

 

from 5er page 216

A character with Shape Shift can change his form as perceived by one or more Sense Groups without altering his powers or other abilities. Examples of Shape Shift include a character who can change his shape to copy other peoples’ features, a powerful illusion-spell that can change a person’s appearance, or a character who can transform himself into many different inanimate objects.

 

Mechanically speaking, the only differences between what can be accomplished with Images vs. Shape Shift (as well as Invisibility) are:

one affects self by default and the other can affect a target at range by default.

one's effects are absolute vs. the chosen sense groups and the other is not.

 

How Images would work in this application depends greatly on whether or not you want it to be a 'fire & forget' ability or not.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Yo, Gamemaster here in this instance. Regardless of 'completely accurate' it is not how I see the effect I am looking for. Sure, its easy just to slap Shape Shift on it, cheap too, but the internal logic of my world ignores such things as 'completely accurate' and 'cheap too'. By your statement and ignoring game mechanics for pure semantics 'someone manipulating light' strikes me as 'Images' not 'Shape Shift' and that's kinda my point. Sorry but I guess I am a literalist in this . . . and pretty much everything else. Images: manipulating appearance through light without altering form. Shapeshift: manipulating form and hence altering appearance.

 

Now, what about 'conforming'?

 

Hmm... with respect, I have to wonder whether you would forbid the Images Power to produce sounds? After all, that has nothing to do with light generation, in fact has no visual component at all, yet it's part and parcel of what Images as described in the rules for 4E through 6E can do. If you wouldn't allow it, what Power would you use to create precise sounds?

 

I had a player who had trouble accepting that an "Energy Blast" (as it was known before 6E) didn't have to be energy, although there were many published examples to the contrary. He couldn't get past the implications of the name. "Shape Shift" may imply things from a literal take on the name, but in terms of what it's designed to do by the rules it's not a physical change of shape unless you buy it to be so. Shape Shift Sight Group, Usable By Others is the simplest rules-legal construct available to do exactly what you want it to do, without doing what you don't want it to do. All the complications you're concerned about with Images re moving with the character, matching his gestures, etc. are not a factor with Shape Shift.

 

All that said, if that still wouldn't work for you, perhaps you could try Images Usable By Others, Usable As Attack so that it "sticks" to the person who's the target of the disguising illusion, moving with him from place to place. As the recipient of the disguise is controlling the illusion he could make it conform to his own physical gestures and posture, consciously or unconsciously.

[Ice9]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

I was more interested in defining the actual terms and what they mean to me if removed from the context of the game.

That's where I'm getting confused - the powers in HERO are components, to be used in constructing the power as it exists in the game world. The name in the book has no meaning in the game world. For example - as mentioned, an Energy Blast doesn't necessarily involve energy. Running is used for wheeled motion. Telekinesis can represent many forms of action at a distance, such as remote-controlled robots.

 

Obviously yes, controlling light couldn't give you physical shapeshifting. But the Shapeshift power isn't just about physical shapeshifting - it covers any change in appearance to one or more senses (and in fact, it doesn't fully encompass physical shapeshifting).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Yo, Gamemaster here in this instance. Regardless of 'completely accurate' it is not how I see the effect I am looking for. Sure, its easy just to slap Shape Shift on it, cheap too, but the internal logic of my world ignores such things as 'completely accurate' and 'cheap too'. By your statement and ignoring game mechanics for pure semantics 'someone manipulating light' strikes me as 'Images' not 'Shape Shift' and that's kinda my point. Sorry but I guess I am a literalist in this . . . and pretty much everything else. Images: manipulating appearance through light without altering form. Shapeshift: manipulating form and hence altering appearance.

 

Now, what about 'conforming'?

 

What you've done is latched onto the Name given to the Power and not considered the Game Effects the Power actually does.

 

I see this all the time, it's not a newbie mistake. It's just a linguistic stop some people have. (sometimes, these are the same people who never allowed "Energy Blast" to be "Throw Rocks At You" ... because the power has the word 'energy' in it and not looking at the Game Effect - 'normal damage only')

 

If you rename Shapeshift to Alter Perceived 'Sense' does that help? As in: Instead of Shapeshift Sight Group it is Alter Perceived Sight Group.

[dmjalund]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

I think shapeshift should have two componenst. the ability to change shape and the ability to mimic aspects.

one could theoretically have Shapeshift (touch) without being able to change shape, meaning, you can feel like you are made of a substance you actually aren't

[Christopher]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

one could theoretically have Shapeshift (touch) without being able to change shape' date=' meaning, you can feel like you are made of a substance you actually aren't[/quote']

Actually, that IS how Shape Shift Touch(Hero System Power) works. You feel like a Rock, but still have the same PD, ED, Body, weight, moveability etc. because you are not Rock.

 

If this personal Image needs to be percieveable and not absolute, there are notes regarding applying Visibile and Requries are Roll (in 5E and 6E).

[Martin2]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Example 6th Champions Power book (would also be valid for previous edns) Illusion powers section.

 

Illusionary Disguise

Shapeshift (sight group, any humanoid form) instant change, Imitation. Total cost 28

 

"The character covers himself in a skintight illusion that makes him look like someone else. His voice remains the same, he feels the same to the touch, and he appears the same in a radar profile - but to visual inspection, hes a different person altogether"

 

Slap on usable by other, limit to say one image etc and I do not see why this can not be used to make a person look slightly smaller then they are (but still big) and look a bit more human etc.

 

Just another example of ignore the description of base power and fit what it does to your SFX.

[Lucius]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Okay, you will need one white sticky label easily available from an office supply store. You'll need to cut it to a precise size, so get a ruler too.

 

Turn in the rulebook to where the Shape Shift Power is described. Measure the name of the Power, and cut a label to cover it. Write "Power X" on the label and apply it to the book.

 

Now you have eliminated the name, which is what was causing you a problem, and you have a Power, called Power X, in the book that can do what you are trying to do.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests renaming all the Powers in the book after letters.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Hero System 5^th Ed Revised page 97

 

1. Decide what sort of power you want to create by choosing the power’s special effect.

 

At this step, don’t think about the rules. Instead, focus on what you want the power to be and to do.

 

I want to create an illusion giving character X the appearance of Y

 

2. Once you’ve chosen a special effect for a power, decide what game effect you want that power to have.

 

Think about what you expect the character to do with the power in the game.

 

I want to allow character X to pass as Y without a requirement that character Z (the creator of the power) constantly maintain control of the power. This power must last for a varying length of time dependent on the situation. This power, while very believable is not prefect and while it is difficult, can be ‘seen through’ under certain conditions. This power must mimic all moves and mannerisms of character X for the duration. It must follow character X as he moves from point A to point B as necessary.

 

 

Originally Posted by Hyper-Man

 

for what it's worth, the quoted text is virtually unchanged from 5th edition.

 

from 5er page 216

 

I know.

 

Originally Posted by Lord Liaden

 

Hmm... with respect, I have to wonder whether you would forbid the Images Power to produce sounds? After all, that has nothing to do with light generation, in fact has no visual component at all, yet it's part and parcel of what Images as described in the rules for 4E through 6E can do. If you wouldn't allow it, what Power would you use to create precise sounds?

 

Also with respect, I know this but a ‘hearing’ component is not required and so I am ignoring it for purposes of this particular instance. Images can be light, obviously, or air vibration, or molecular manipulation to combine various free element to provide the aroma of a skunk. It can be an interference of the electo-magnetic spectrum that scrambles radar or the alteration of a body’s neuro impulses that messes up a person’s aura. I never said I don’t allow it.

 

Originally Posted by Lord Liaden

 

All that said, if that still wouldn't work for you, perhaps you could try Images Usable By Others, Usable As Attack so that it "sticks" to the person who's the target of the disguising illusion, moving with him from place to place. As the recipient of the disguise is controlling the illusion he could make it conform to his own physical gestures and posture, consciously or unconsciously.

Thank you for this idea. I like it.

 

Originally Posted by Lucius

 

Okay, you will need one white sticky label easily available from an office supply store. You'll need to cut it to a precise size, so get a ruler too.

 

Turn in the rulebook to where the Shape Shift Power is described. Measure the name of the Power, and cut a label to cover it. Write "Power X" on the label and apply it to the book.

 

Now you have eliminated the name, which is what was causing you a problem, and you have a Power, called Power X, in the book that can do what you are trying to do.

 

 

Ouch, Lucius, a bit harsh. I am not trying to denigrate anyone’s ideas or suggestions and I respect all such but in this instance, as the GM, I wish to use Images regardless of the availability of alternate possibilities. My primary concern now is defining this particular power using the advantages and limitations suitable to Images.

 

By doing as you suggest with a sticky white label, however, begs the question: If by labeling these two particular powers POWER X, what differentiates them?

[Martin2]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

Well looking through the images examples in 6th it does not give any examples that fit the disguising a large creature as a smaller one by the use of magic or something similar.

 

But I found another shape shift example:

 

Super Disguise - Shape shift (Sight group and Touch group); any humanoid form) Imitation, reduced endurance (0 END) OIF (make up and disguise supplies), Requires a roll, extra time etc.

 

So another example of a shape shift being used to alter the appearance without the effect of specific shape shifting itself (just a bit of skill with the false beards and make up etc, obviously not suitable for your task but slap on magic SFF and tweak the limitations you have a disguise a large humanoid spell).

 

But then you want to use the Images power don't you .

[Christopher]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

I want to create an illusion giving character X the appearance of Y

[...]

I want to allow character X to pass as Y without a requirement that character Z (the creator of the power) constantly maintain control of the power. This power must last for a varying length of time dependent on the situation. This power, while very believable is not prefect and while it is difficult, can be ‘seen through’ under certain conditions. This power must mimic all moves and mannerisms of character X for the duration. It must follow character X as he moves from point A to point B as necessary.

Please Specify what lenghts in what situations.

Also specify under what conditions is should be "see through". Normal disbelieve when the other Sense don't add up? Perception Rolls?

 

That said:

Shape Shift Sight (10), Single Shape (0), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Useable by Others (Basic UOO; LOS not needed after Granting; +3/4); 32 AP; 32 Real Points

Allows the Grantor to give any Single Character the Ability to change into Shape Y at will. Grantor must touch character to grant Ability.

I am ucnertain how 5E handles "taking the UOO power back".

[ghost-angel]

Re: Images vs. Shape Shift or something else

 

By doing as you suggest with a sticky white label' date=' however, begs the question: If by labeling these two particular powers POWER X, what differentiates them?[/quote']

 

One of the major diferences is Images will create an "illiusion" that can be seen through (with a good enough Perception Roll you perceive the Image Power is not Reality); where Shapeshift will create an "illusion" that is effectively perfect and cannot be 'disbelieved' by a simple Perception test.

 

Also - Images inherently works over Range and Area, Shapeshift is Personal.