Two handed punch.

[davypi]

It seems simple enough, but I cannot find anything about this in the manuals. How would you handle a character who is using a two fisted blow in combat? Specifically, I am building a monster that will have a "hulk smash" maneuver, bring both of his arms down simultaneously. It seems like such an attack would do more strength damage than a standard one-handed punch. (Right now, I'm considering creating a special attack for this that would create a -2 OCV/DCV but add an additional 0.5 STR damage.)

[Tasha]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

It seems simple enough' date=' but I cannot find anything about this in the manuals. How would you handle a character who is using a two fisted blow in combat? Specifically, I am building a monster that will have a "hulk smash" maneuver, bring both of his arms down simultaneously. It seems like such an attack would do more strength damage than a standard one-handed punch. (Right now, I'm considering creating a special attack for this that would create a -2 OCV/DCV but add an additional 0.5 STR damage.)[/quote']

 

The Haymaker Maneuver

[Lucius]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

The Haymaker Maneuver

 

What she said

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys +4 with haymaker, Limited: Only in daylight

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Lots of ways. Haymaker Maneuver, pushing Strength to strike, extra Hand-to-Hand Attack damage, an Offensive Strike maneuver ... AE Hex on Strength (good luck dodging both fists!) ...

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

I thought that offensive strike was desrcirbed this way under cinematic fighting (UMA 5th). You could buy extra hand attacks with lim needs both hands. (-1/4) I think at most.

[Christopher]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

It seems simple enough' date=' but I cannot find anything about this in the manuals. How would you handle a character who is using a two fisted blow in combat? Specifically, I am building a monster that will have a "hulk smash" maneuver, bring both of his arms down simultaneously. It seems like such an attack would do more strength damage than a standard one-handed punch. (Right now, I'm considering creating a special attack for this that would create a -2 OCV/DCV but add an additional 0.5 STR damage.)[/quote']

"Two handed Strike" is a special Effectm, for any power or maneuver that does more than normal Damage.

 

I also think the Haymaker would be best.

If you have martial Arts, make the highest DC Martial Maneuver that.

Or build it as power.

 

It seems to have been used as the special effect for the HTH-Attack with AoE. But of course it could be that the character had the attack and was haymakering it (you can haymaker almost any attack).

[Lucius]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Although seen in cinema, I don't recall that such a blow is ever part of boxing training nor used in any of the oriental martial arts nor as part of any police or military training in unarmed combat.

 

Were it actually a practical manuever for one Human being to use on another, I think it would have been incorporated into the formal combat arts.

 

That said, if you think it just looks cool you can define it any way you want in your game.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I have no intention of letting you find out how effective it is against palindromedaries

[Christopher]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Although seen in cinema, I don't recall that such a blow is ever part of boxing training nor used in any of the oriental martial arts nor as part of any police or military training in unarmed combat.

 

Were it actually a practical manuever for one Human being to use on another, I think it would have been incorporated into the formal combat arts.

 

That said, if you think it just looks cool you can define it any way you want in your game.

Marial Arts is not limited to "I trained in a Monestary" Special Effect. Even animals can have Martial Arts to simulate thier comabt abilities (a Constrictor Snake would have a enhanced Crush, and a very Strong Grab for example).

The reason I think it would work in Martial Arts, is that Martial Maneuvers and the Haymaker are incompatible. So you need to built a "Martial Haymaker".

[Bloodstone]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Although seen in cinema' date=' I don't recall that such a blow is ever part of boxing training nor used in any of the oriental martial arts nor as part of any police or military training in unarmed combat.[/quote']

 

That's because it lacks power compared to most normal punches. It's typically shown as an arm punch, so it's mechanically weak. It lacks the power generating torque of a boxing cross or the liner power generation of a karate lunge punch, for example.

 

Also, it hurts like hell if you do it wrong. Never lace the hands together, as that's just a good way to break your own fingers. Instead, you would grip palm to palm. I know this because...

 

Were it actually a practical manuever for one Human being to use on another, I think it would have been incorporated into the formal combat arts.

 

I was taught an application of the "Axe Handle" back in the day when I was working with my old jiujitsu/military H2H instructor.

 

It was shown as a defense against a front strangle. Bring the arms up between the opponents arms to break the stangle, bring them back down again quickly across the bridge of thier nose (or other vulnerable target). Follow up as necessary.

 

Sakuraba also used it in his fights over in Pride. It was more often a double chop (frequently refered to as the Mongolian Chop due to the pro wrestling connotations...) or a double hammer fist. It was often thrown as a setup for other strikes, but occassionaly he'd do some damage with it.

 

 

He does a standing chop at 1:56 and a few around the 2:21 mark against grounded opponents. Other fighters tend to just use a single hammer fist in ground and pound situations. Since hammer fists thrown from the ground tend to be strictly arm punches, the double hammer fist would probably hit harder. But most guys I know never train it, so they dont think about it. Those that do use it may not end up in a balanced position to throw it or might be using their other hand for control or defense... Sakuraba was known for being predictably unpredicatable and trying unconventional tactics (many of which worked quite well).

 

There are dozens of Asain fighting arts that have double handed strikes in thier sylabus: some styles of karate and kung fu use linear double punchs or double palm strikes, while Muay Boran teaches a double upercut.

 

I'm at a loss to think of one that actually uses the HULK SMASH!!! axe handle or double hammerfist, but it might be out there...

[Lucius]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

I stand corrected

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out I'm actually sitting down.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

I was taught an application of the "Axe Handle" back in the day when I was working with my old jiujitsu/military H2H instructor.

 

It was shown as a defense against a front strangle. Bring the arms up between the opponents arms to break the stangle, bring them back down again quickly across the bridge of thier nose (or other vulnerable target). Follow up as necessary.

 

I've seen that defense and practised it. But some instructors feel that this method is also mechanically weak too since your fighting against a naturally strong position of the arms and gravity to boot.

 

Oh and given the plethra of varied techniques of the martial arts, I think it rather good odds that you could eventualy find an art or system that had Hulk Smash in it.

[patransom]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

In 6th edition, HSMA p 94 lists "Requires Two Hands" as a restrictive element worth -0 points. So it follows that you could define pretty much any martial arts maneuver you thought fit (e.g., offensive strike) as requiring two hands, rename it "two-handed punch," and be done.

[Tasha]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Yes during character generation you can define a 2 fist punch as many different things. (ie dice of Hand Attack, Various Martial Arts Maneuvers etc).

 

During play the simplest answer is to use the Haymaker Maneuver. (This also covers an all out Kick for those people who are coming from early Champions editions).

[phoenix240]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Starfleet HTH combat training includes it.

[pinecone]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

It seems simple enough' date=' but I cannot find anything about this in the manuals. How would you handle a character who is using a two fisted blow in combat? Specifically, I am building a monster that will have a "hulk smash" maneuver, bring both of his arms down simultaneously. It seems like such an attack would do more strength damage than a standard one-handed punch. (Right now, I'm considering creating a special attack for this that would create a -2 OCV/DCV but add an additional 0.5 STR damage.)[/quote']

Ummm Haymaker?...or use something like Offensive strike, speed strike and the like....

[psyber624]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

I think as with pretty much every HERO system power, it comes down to the question of what exactly do you want it to do? then you pick whichever one of the options listed here fits the bill the best, each has advantages and disadvantages over the others. (ie Haymakers take extra time, and have built in DCV penalties, etc.)

[griffinman01]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

I know there's a 'requires two hands' option off of Gestures (a -1/2 limitation) so couldn't you do a HTH attack with that limitation on it? So you could put, say 40 STR for your normal one-handed attack and then a +4D6 HTH (requires two hands) and some other limitation (requires a full phase, etc) as you see fit to make your two fisted pound do 12D6 damage. Or, if you didn't want to deal with added damage, you can do some added effect to simulate the extra damage, such as Armor piercing as a naked modifier with the two hand limitation or a Find Weakness for two-handed punches.

[psyber624]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Gestures isn't really intended to be used like that, it could be handwaved to it sure, but by definition its supposed to be "obviously out of the ordinary". Striking someone with two hands doesn't really qualify. Also, that sounds a lot like taking a limitation that isn't really limiting (the only way it effectively limits the character is if he can use one hand but not the other, which is a rare occurance, and since this is an attack power to boot i doubt it would be worth a limitation)

[dmjalund]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Gestures could be handwaved

 

 

 

yes

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Gestures could be handwaved

 

I see what you did there.

[griffinman01]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Gestures isn't really intended to be used like that' date=' it could be handwaved to it sure, but by definition its supposed to be "obviously out of the ordinary". Striking someone with two hands doesn't really qualify. Also, that sounds a lot like taking a limitation that isn't really limiting (the only way it effectively limits the character is if he can use one hand but not the other, which is a rare occurance, and since this is an attack power to boot i doubt it would be worth a limitation)[/quote']

 

Well, I've seen examples in the book where the use of two hands is seen as a -1/2 limitation for many real weapons (pg 480 of 5E revised). I only referred to it as 'gestures' since that's really the only way to get the Hero Designer Software to do it (ie, putting a two handed weapon as Gestures (-1/4) and requires 2 hands (-1/4)). Granted by the rules it's not considered 'gestures' as you've pointed out, but the -1/2 limitation should still stand since there are many situations where one hand could be tied up and unusable. Grabbing a single hand for increased strength (versus grabbing two limbs with a basic grab), joint breaks, certain entangles, etc. Plus you could argue, much like with the two-hand requirement for weapons, that the attack wouldn't work in tight quarters. Perhaps -1/2 is a little high, but I think at least a -1/4 would be reasonable.

[psyber624]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

Ill grant you that, however the two handed rule is usually only applied in "Heroic" campaigns, and also there means things like you can't hold a shield while using the weapon (and also, the two handed requirement doesn't actually prevent you from using the weapon 1 handed, it merely applies penalties to doing so. [6e2 200].

 

personally I don't feel that two handed strike is enough of a limitation to warrant any limiters (esp not -1/4). It simply would not be an issue often enough. If I did allow it I would be sure that the opponents occasionally made sure to restrict one of his hands (although the list of maneuvers that would restrict just one hand and not both is rather limited, another reason I would hesitate to put a limitation on this).

 

YMMV of course

[Vondy]

Re: Two handed punch.

 

The Haymaker Maneuver

 

There is also a Two-Fisted Smash manueuver in the Dirty Infighting package in Heroststem Martial Arts.

 

Its basically a riff on the Offensive Strike maneuver: -2 OCV / -0 DCV, Damage Classes +4, Req. Both Hands.

 

And you can haymaker it for cinematic bone-crunchiness.