Rules question: HTH Limitation

[griffinman01]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

I'm still not seeing the answer to my question "So' date=' would you also allow someone to buy a Flash, Blast, or Drain with May Add STR for +1/2?" If not, why is KA the sole exception, where we should allow a +1/2 advantage to boost the attack with STR, rather than requiring a different attack be paid for separately.[/quote']

I didn't address that because nowhere in my post did I say I would allow that, you brought the idea up. I was using the idea of a +1/2 advantage as an example, not the gospel. This was simply how I was attempting to justify the cost. I've never used an advantage like that and I never would because all attacks that I think would realistically have a strength component take it into account already.

 

It's really not that hard to change the example for different levels of attack. Bob wants his character to have a 4d6 Killing attack with his Claws. He doesn't envision the character being overly muscular, so let's give him a 15 STR. Bob can buy a 3d6 HKA for 45 points, and add 1d6 from STR. Or he can buy a 4d6 HKA with STR does not Add, or a 4d6 RKA, no Range, for 40 points. That means he pays 5 points less for the exact same mechanical result. Fair?

 

Or he could buy the character's STR up to 30 for 15 points, buy a 2d6 HKA for 30, and spend the exact same amount, getting all the benefits of a +15 STR for free. Again, is that fair?

 

The bottom line is that the ability to add STR to a HKA makes it sub-optimal, at best, to buy the HKA directly. With the doubling rule, the character should always derive half of his KA dice from STR adds - he saves no points by foregoing the additional benefits of a higher STR. Moving to 6e, with no doubling rule, and you should just buy 1 DC of HKA for 5 points, and get the rest from STR. This is even better, since your 60 STR Brick with a 1 pip HKA can now Multiple Power Attack a 12d6 Punch with a 4d6+1 HKA - and all it cost to add that KA to the Punch is 5 points.

 

This brings us back to the 1st Ed days, where most high STR Enemies characters had a 1d6 HKA (since you could not buy DC's in 5 point increments) fully augmented by their STR. The Monster was the saddest example of this - from 1e (5dk HKA, being 1d6 + 60 STR, dropped to 2d6 with the doubling rule - no one thought to modify the build to keep the KA as his main attack).

 

Why would you buy a 4D6 RKA with no range? Doesn't that defeat the purpose especially (unlike a no range EB) you can purchase a no str added limitation to a HKA? I understand you're just using it as an example but, as I've sated, I don't have a problem with it because if someone wants to spend more points for the same effect then that's on them. There are dozens of ways to buy powers with this system and each has different costs. The costs may not proportional so you go with the option that bests matches what you want at the cost you're willing to pay (as long as the GM okays it). There's nothing 'unfair' to letting a PC have a few more points to work with and have fun with, the GM can always alter his villains to match the abilities of his PCs.

 

The bottom line, in my opinion, is what's most fun for the players within the balance of the game. If my PCs are going to have a better experience by 'getting all the benefits of a +15 SR for free' that wont unbalance the game, then I don't have any problem with it. If you have a problem then you can change it to better fit your campaign in order to make it more 'fair' for your players. That's the beauty of the system, you can alter things as you see fit for your campaign. I do what's most fair for my player base and there's nothing I see in your post that seems so unfair that it ruins the experience (and if a situation like what you outlined occurred and it proves to be unfair, then I'll act accordingly). The rules in this game are as balanced as they could make them. Does it work in EVERY situation? No. That's why you're given the option to change them if you see a problem.

 

Now, this discussion is getting off-topic for the thread so I'll be ending my train of thought on the topic. If you wish to continue it send a PM, though I've stated my opinions to the best of my ability on the matter.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

A page number would have been fine, but thanks for siting the rule for me. 6E fixed this by pro-rating the ammount of damage STR added so there was no weird doubling cap.

It's on page 408:

 

STR And Advantaged HAs

A character who has a Power Advantage on an

HA (or other Normal Damage attack to which he

adds STR damage) does not also have to buy that

Advantage for his STR, and may apply the Advan-

tage to the dice of damage provided/added by STR,

if either of these situations exists:

—the character only uses his STR up to the

unmodifi ed Active Point value of the HA

—the unmodifi ed Active Point value of the

HA equals or exceeds the character’s STR.

“Unmodifi ed” means the Active Points with-

out applying any Advantages. For example, an

HA +4d6, Armor Piercing normally has 30 Active

Points, but its unmodifi ed Active Points are only 20.

If neither of the circumstances described

above applies — in other words, if the unmodifi ed

Active Points in the HA are less than the character’s

STR, or the character uses more STR than the

unmodifi ed Active Points in the HA — then the

character cannot use the HA dice (since the rules

don’t permit a character to use a Power without

using the Advantages bought for it [page 246] and

HA dice can only add to STR damage, not be used

on their own [page 184]).

 

Technically it's not the doubling rule but it states that you can't put more strength into an advantaged HTH than the active points (which would essentially limit it to double the HTH)

 

[psyber624]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Actually, 6e DOES have a doubling cap rule. It's simply not stated as a general rule that must apply to all campaign's. One of the goals of the system is to allow for more flexibility with less restrictions, so while the game rules don't DECLARE that this is how it is, it is suggested that you use it as a guideline.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

The short answer to your question is that you should just sit down with an alcoholic beverage of your choice and ignore it, because if you don't then you'll end up like this:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]45360[/ATTACH]

 

The long answer is that there's something a bit screwy with the cost of strength, but there's no way to fix it without coming up with entirely new cost structures for things like TK, Density Increase, Growth, etc. The current cost structure for Hand Attack, with 6e's -1/4 HtH limit, is close enough unless you're being paid to rewrite the entire rulebook just to fix this inconstancy.

 

Also, some people use AP caps instead of DC caps, and that tends to get messed up if you alter STR's pricing. Personally, I think AP caps are more trouble than they're worth, but there would be even worse wailing and gnashing of teeth if you were to change STR's cost per DC than there was during The Great COM Debate.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

I was always under the impression that the -1/2 HTH limitation was because you were essentially buying 5 points of strength but not getting any of the figured characteristics' date=' throw modifiers, or STR rolls out of it. It's the same as if you bought 5 STR with the limitation "Only to add to HTH damage" like what CrosshairCollie said.[/quote']

 

It's worth noting that the mandatory -1/2 HTH Limitation was not included when HA was first introduced to the system (Champions II or III possibly?). The first rules to include HA had it cost a straight 3 points per d6 of damage. This was quickly adjusted towards the more recent 5 points/d6 w/mandatory -1/2 Limitation in subsequent editions.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

It's worth noting that the mandatory -1/2 HTH Limitation was not included when HA was first introduced to the system (Champions II or III possibly?). The first rules to include HA had it cost a straight 3 points per d6 of damage. This was quickly adjusted towards the more recent 5 points/d6 w/mandatory -1/2 Limitation in subsequent editions.

 

Only because people used AP caps instead of DC caps, I suspect.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Nope, I'd guess two reasons: Multipower Pools and, more importantly, the fact that it used less END per DC than an EB while being cheaper to boot.

[griffinman01]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

It's worth noting that the mandatory -1/2 HTH Limitation was not included when HA was first introduced to the system (Champions II or III possibly?). The first rules to include HA had it cost a straight 3 points per d6 of damage. This was quickly adjusted towards the more recent 5 points/d6 w/mandatory -1/2 Limitation in subsequent editions.

 

I remember that from the original book I used (not sure what edition it was but it had the original Heromaker software on a floppy disc).

 

Only because people used AP caps instead of DC caps' date=' I suspect.[/quote']

 

Actually I think it was so that the active point cost was more universal for attack powers since everything else was a multiple of five (energy blasts, mental powers, killing attacks, etc). Thus it made it easier for multipower distribution, advantaged HA rules, etc.

[psyber624]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

DC caps can be hard to calculate when you use advantages. AP caps not so much. Not to mention the fact that AP caps can apply to powers that do not use DC to measure effectiveness.

[Tasha]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

DC caps can be hard to calculate when you use advantages. AP caps not so much. Not to mention the fact that AP caps can apply to powers that do not use DC to measure effectiveness.

 

Which is why smart GM's use both DC and Active Pt Caps

 

Also it's not to hard to figure Active Pt cap from DC Cap. Just multiply the DC cap by 5. Though I set my DC caps at 12 and Active Point caps at 75. This allows people to buy their DC 12 powers with Reduced endurance or Charges exceeding 16.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Isn't the mandatory HTH limitation -¼ in 6e, not -½? I was fairly certain that was the case, but since no one has mentioned it to this point I am now wondering if I missed something...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Isn't the mandatory HTH limitation -¼ in 6e' date=' not -½? I was fairly certain that was the case, but since no one has mentioned it to this point I am now wondering if I missed something...[/quote']

You are correct, it changed to -1/4 in 6E.

[psyber624]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Which is why smart GM's use both DC and Active Pt Caps

 

Also it's not to hard to figure Active Pt cap from DC Cap. Just multiply the DC cap by 5. Though I set my DC caps at 12 and Active Point caps at 75. This allows people to buy their DC 12 powers with Reduced endurance or Charges exceeding 16.

 

Yeah, that is a case of me not stating what I was trying to say correctly. DC caps are easy to calculate. It's calculating the DC of an advantaged attack that can be tricky.

 

I do like the seperate DC and AP cap concept. Out of curiosity what other advantages do you allow to NOT affect DC's? I know there is a discussion of this in 6e that states "advantages that do not affect how damage is applied" but that is not very specific. Does it apply only to abilities that affect the damage roll (ArP, AF, Pen, etc)? or the attack roll (ACV, No Range Mod, etc)? do things like Increased Range, transdimensional, indirect apply as they do not affect the damage directly? Just looking for some input

[Tasha]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Yeah, that is a case of me not stating what I was trying to say correctly. DC caps are easy to calculate. It's calculating the DC of an advantaged attack that can be tricky.

 

I do like the seperate DC and AP cap concept. Out of curiosity what other advantages do you allow to NOT affect DC's? I know there is a discussion of this in 6e that states "advantages that do not affect how damage is applied" but that is not very specific. Does it apply only to abilities that affect the damage roll (ArP, AF, Pen, etc)? or the attack roll (ACV, No Range Mod, etc)? do things like Increased Range, transdimensional, indirect apply as they do not affect the damage directly? Just looking for some input

 

I pretty much count everything ex Charges and Reduced Endurance (perhaps affects Desolid if you catch me on a good day). There may be others, but pretty much everything else makes the attack actually measurably better. I know that charges and Reduced End do increase the effectiveness of a power, but not in the same way as other Advantages do.

[gojira]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Wait, DCs or AP?

 

Note that I'm responding partially to psyber's post here that asked what Advantages do you not count against DCs. "All of them" would be my answer. DCs are just DCs, total dice, that's it. Well, Strength + Hand Attacks + DCs obviously count. And Blast and RKA and HKA, but those are all powers or characteristics, not Advantages. I can't think of anything else off hand.

 

I'd assume that DCs are only affected by dice. 12 dice means 12 DCs.

 

AP is what advantages you toss on top of the 12 dice. 12 DCs with a +1/4 Advantage is 75 Active Points. You can't go higher than that without dropping some base DCs in a 12DC/75AP game.

 

If you don't count Reduced Endurance or Charges against Active Points, fine I can see that. But no one should count Reduced Endurance against DCs, that's nutty.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

I'm pretty sure both 5e and 6e essentially say that a 60 Active Point 8d6 (Energy)Blast with (+1/2) worth of Armor Piercing Advantage(s) is considered to be a 12 Damage Class Attack.

[Tasha]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

I'm pretty sure both 5e and 6e essentially say that a 60 Active Point 8d6 (Energy)Blast with (+1/2) worth of Armor Piercing Advantage(s) is considered to be a 12 Damage Class Attack.

 

That's the way we always treated most Advantages. So most advantages count vs DC in my games. Charges and Reduced End don't, but do count vs the AP limit (that way people aren't taking 12d6 0 end attacks).

 

I am a bit tired and muzzy headed at the moment. I'll post more about this tomorrow if more explanations seem to be warranted.

[Lucius]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

The short answer to your question is that you should just sit down with an alcoholic beverage of your choice and ignore it, because if you don't then you'll end up like this:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]45360[/ATTACH]

 

The long answer is that there's something a bit screwy with the cost of strength, but there's no way to fix it without coming up with entirely new cost structures for things like TK, Density Increase, Growth, etc. The current cost structure for Hand Attack, with 6e's -1/4 HtH limit, is close enough unless you're being paid to rewrite the entire rulebook just to fix this inconstancy.

 

Also, some people use AP caps instead of DC caps, and that tends to get messed up if you alter STR's pricing. Personally, I think AP caps are more trouble than they're worth, but there would be even worse wailing and gnashing of teeth if you were to change STR's cost per DC than there was during The Great COM Debate.

 

So, maybe I should start a kickstarter to get myself paid to rewrite the rules to fix the inconsistency...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says just abolish "Hand to Hand Attack" since there's nothing it does you can't do with either Blast, No range, or Limited STR

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

You are correct' date=' it changed to -1/4 in 6E.[/quote']

 

I think the appropriate pricing needs to be assessed against what STR can typically do, and against Martial Arts added DC's. For 4 points, I can effectively add 5 STR to all martial arts maneuvers. It seems reasonable to allow 4 points to add 1 DC to all non-martial maneuvers. Hand Attack only adds damage (not Grab, Hold, Escape, Trip, etc.) so would reasonably stay at -1/2. I suspect the reduction to -1/4 was a reaction to the removal of figured characteristics, which (in my view, at least) brought STR's benefits more into line with its cost.

 

I agree with Lucius that HA is more akin to Limited STR than anything else. STR adds to it because it's just more STR. Maybe it changes your STR to energy damage, but that's a +0 modifier (Blasts and KA's can pick between Physical and Energy damage with no costing changes). If you don't want STR to add, a Blast (or virtually any other power) with No Range does the trick. Lucius, if you're fixing HA, how about getting rid of HKA and RKA so we have one Killing Attack power that doesn't have this orphan mechanic of being enhanced by STR if we take away its range?

 

I pretty much count everything ex Charges and Reduced Endurance (perhaps affects Desolid if you catch me on a good day). There may be others' date=' but pretty much everything else makes the attack actually measurably better. I know that charges and Reduced End do increase the effectiveness of a power, but not in the same way as other Advantages do.[/quote']

 

Note that I'm responding partially to psyber's post here that asked what Advantages do you not count against DCs. "All of them" would be my answer. DCs are just DCs, total dice, that's it. Well, Strength + Hand Attacks + DCs obviously count. And Blast and RKA and HKA, but those are all powers or characteristics, not Advantages. I can't think of anything else off hand.

 

I'd assume that DCs are only affected by dice. 12 dice means 12 DCs.

 

AP is what advantages you toss on top of the 12 dice. 12 DCs with a +1/4 Advantage is 75 Active Points. You can't go higher than that without dropping some base DCs in a 12DC/75AP game.

 

If you don't count Reduced Endurance or Charges against Active Points, fine I can see that. But no one should count Reduced Endurance against DCs, that's nutty.

 

I'm pretty sure both 5e and 6e essentially say that a 60 Active Point 8d6 (Energy)Blast with (+1/2) worth of Armor Piercing Advantage(s) is considered to be a 12 Damage Class Attack.

 

As can be seen, there is some discrepancy between which advantages people see as counting against DC's. I disagree with Hyper Man only in that AP is no longer a +1/2 advantage in 6e (I guess that could be double AP in 6e). As an example of the issue, before 6e radicaly reduced the base cost of AoE, how many AoE powers were useful in Supers combat? If you only did 6d6 in a 12DC game, the power was useful only for whittling agents down (unlikely to KO, or even stun, even agents in a single shot).

 

Skimming the list, I'd initially suggest the following do not impact DC's (or should have a reduced impact on DC's which might be effected by an AP cap like the 12 DC/75 AP model):

 

- Area of Effect (though I'd likely consider AoE Accurate to impact DC's);

- Charges;

- Delayed Effect;

- Difficult to Dispel;

- Duration advantages;

- Hole in the Middle;

- Indirect;

- Invisible Power Effects;

- Megascale;

- Personal Immunity;

- Range Advantages & Ranged;

- Reduced END;

- Sticky;

- Time Limit;

- Transdimensional;

- Trigger;

- Usable on others;

- maybe Variable SFX (depends on its breadth and use)

 

Wow - that's a lot! Add "Affects Solid World" to that list as well.

 

This is not to say I might not restrict the advantages themselves. However, if I am prepared to allow (say) an Affects Solid World power to begin with, I'd be prepared to allow it to have enough punch to have some impact. Maybe that would be capped at 3d6 NND, but not at 4d6 Normal damage, in a typical 12 DC Supers game. Or maybe my ruling would simply be "no effective attacks for desolid characters - the price of such defense is an inability to meaningfully attack", but that's not a DC driven decision.

 

But then, I've never been a big believer in caps. We can probably all build 60 AP attacks that no sane GM would allow and no reasonable player would seriously request. I prefer guidelines, such as a general expectation of attacks in the 12 DC range. However, some 12 DC or less attacks may well remain a poor fit or overpowered structure, while I can envision unusual constructs of much higher DC's that could fit just fine.